• Dawkins: "Being raised Catholic is worse than child abuse"
    355 replies, posted
I was raised Catholic and nobody actually believes any of the extremist shit like going to hell for masturbating, It's just a spiritual thing, like praying for help when you need it shit like that. A member of my family was sexually abused by his uncle as a child and took most of his lifetime to get over it. This seems like a case of an atheist extremist having a go at catholic extremists, both of whom are in the wrong.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;38934362]But he isn't wrong. Sure he says controversial stuff, but what's wrong with pointing out the awful truth's about certain beliefs? [B]He's just attacking Catholicism, the most Bible-literal and scary branch of Christianity.[/B] Telling a child that they'll burn in hell for an eternity for what amounts to be human nature; that touching your dick will get you cast into burning brimstone for your flesh to burn off, regrow, and burn off forever; that having sex is an abomination of mankind, that you are a monster of sin that must repent to even be accepted by God, and that every action you do is the result of your filth. That leads to some pretty fucked up children, and if you think that it's not as bad as verbal/physical abuse, you're blind to how much these words can affect a child. Telling a child this is an awful form of abuse, and its severity [b]can[/b] be compared to rape or hitting; the argument is not whether its worse or better, abuse is abuse regardless of the form, and it needs to stop.[/QUOTE] What? Catholicism accepts evolution, and acknowledges a massive portion of the bible as metaphorical, it's FAR from the most bible-literal branch of Christianity. As for the scary part, I don't really understand what's so scary about it. Maybe being raised Catholic in Ireland is different to being raised Catholic anywhere else, but I never remember being afraid of hell or anything like that. Confession and forgiveness were emphasised a lot as far as I remember. This title is hugely sensationalist, I can't remember where in "the God Delusion" exactly he tells the anecdote about the woman thinking child abuse was "yucky", but I'm pretty sure he says in the next few lines that this is one case and can't be used as a universal example. Obviously child sex abuse can be horrific. There was a suicide note linked here a while back by some programmer who killed himself because he was abused sexually as a child and was haunted by it for the rest of his life.
[QUOTE=Mr. N;38934499]Because some are A. Not the simple or B. Not bothering anybody You're a fucking asshole buddy, get the fuck out if you are going to be a giant cunt over a post that was hardly even hostile.[/QUOTE] if you don't want to be categorized as someone who ''bothers people'', don't base your life on a book that clearly instructs you to execute all homosexuals by throwing stones at them until they're dead.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;38934531]well then you would be wrong[/QUOTE] I have more people talking in my ear about how much they hate Religion and how it's a horrible evil thing and nothing is worse than it no matter what. I had like, one mormon come to my door in the last year. So I don't know about your choice of company, but for me and a number of others, they are pretty goddamn annoying.
There's nothing wrong with criticising Dawkins' tone depending on your target conclusion. Are you trying to prove his argument is false? Then it's not the right way to go. But I suspect his point is that he's not contributing in any practical way. In this regard, tone and rhetoric is important. We're not criticising his academic papers; we're criticising his attitude.
[QUOTE=TheHydra;38934336][B]wow fuck off and die[/B] [editline]22nd December 2012[/editline] if you're gonna try to make a retarded-ass point [B]try not to phrase it in a retarded-ass way[/B][/QUOTE] :v:
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;38934509]because the argument is circular dawkins is saying that priests raping kids might not be as bad as it's cracked up to be, and he gives an argument for it. but in your model of the world, "raping kids is really really bad" is immutable. so you see that dawkins isn't respecting this taboo, so you criticise him for "trivializing" it. therefore, so the reasoning goes, the argument must be wrong. you're proving your proposition by assuming it in the first place.[/QUOTE] he didn't really provide any substance for "raping kids might not be as bad as it's cracked up to be" though? the only thing he used was a quote from a molestation victim about how being catholic affected her worse than being sexually abused, which i addressed a few posts up. so what else are you supposed to criticize
[QUOTE=Hiccuper;38934553]This title is hugely sensationalist, I can't remember where in "the God Delusion" exactly he tells the anecdote about the woman thinking child abuse was "yucky", but I'm pretty sure he says in the next few lines that this is one case and can't be used as a universal example. Obviously child sex abuse can be horrific. There was a suicide note linked here a while back by some programmer who killed himself because he was abused sexually as a child and was haunted by it for the rest of his life.[/QUOTE] wait so you're calling out this article for misrepresenting an anecdote then in the next sentence you use an anecdote to argue for child sexual abuse being worse [editline]22nd December 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. N;38934559]I have more people talking in my ear about how much they hate Religion and how it's a horrible evil thing and nothing is worse than it no matter what. I had like, one mormon come to my door in the last year. So I don't know about your choice of company, but for me and a number of others, they are pretty goddamn annoying.[/QUOTE] because first world problems if you actually think that in the grand scheme of things "militant" atheists are doing more harm than militant theists you are just delusional [editline]22nd December 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=TheHydra;38934566]he didn't really provide any substance for "raping kids might not be as bad as it's cracked up to be" though? the only thing he used was a quote from a molestation victim about how being catholic affected her worse than being sexually abused, which i addressed a few posts up. so what else are you supposed to criticize[/QUOTE] fair enough
[QUOTE=Chickens!;38934545]I was raised Catholic and nobody actually believes any of the extremist shit like going to hell for masturbating, It's just a spiritual thing, like praying for help when you need it shit like that. A member of my family was sexually abused by his uncle as a child and took most of his lifetime to get over it. This seems like a case of an atheist extremist having a go at catholic extremists, both of whom are in the wrong.[/QUOTE] Then you weren't learning the faith correctly. Catholic hell is a fundamental, necessary aspect of the religion.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;38934554]if you don't want to be categorized as someone who ''bothers people'', don't base your life on a book that clearly instructs you to execute all homosexuals by throwing stones at them until they're dead.[/QUOTE] Because the US and Europe is full of Catholics who stone people to death. Are they very good at adhering to their book? Arguably not. Are they bothering anyone? Not really at all. Stop generalizing and go back to /r/atheism.
[QUOTE=Falubii;38934586]Then you weren't learning the faith correctly. Catholic hell is a fundamental, necessary aspect of the religion.[/QUOTE] no true catholic
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;38934591]no true catholic[/QUOTE] what
Being raised Catholic, I can agree with this. Although I was never abused, 15 years on I stills turggle to overcome the things I had hammered in to my head. Threats of eternal damnation, how what few friends I had (due to not being brought up in an entirely Christian community) were going to be punished for their beliefs and that they were horrible people etc. It's basically being brought up brainwashed. Looking back, it's horrible, and my parents admitted a long time ago that the way they've been rasing their kids was terrible, but religion was "very important" back then.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;38934568]wait so you're calling out this article for misrepresenting an anecdote then in the next sentence you use an anecdote to argue for child sexual abuse being worse[/QUOTE] What's wrong with this? He's a different anecdote to show that anecdotes aren't sufficient.
[QUOTE=Mr. N;38934589]Because the US and Europe is full of Catholics who stone people to death. Are they very good at adhering to their book? Arguably not. Are they bothering anyone? Not really at all. Stop generalizing and go back to /r/atheism.[/QUOTE] ''all homosexuals deserve to die but I won't kill them myself because I'm lazy and timid''- the words of a perfectly OK person, according to you.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;38934568]wait so you're calling out this article for misrepresenting an anecdote then in the next sentence you use an anecdote to argue for child sexual abuse being worse [editline]22nd December 2012[/editline] because first world problems if you actually think that in the grand scheme of things "militant" atheists are doing more harm than militant theists you are just delusional [editline]22nd December 2012[/editline] fair enough[/QUOTE] I don't, militant theism is a lot bigger thing and I know that, but on the topic at hand about who is a lot more goddamn annoying, which was what was being talked about, I find them to be a lot more bothersome and obnoxious, and they saturate my personal life more than any other belief/lack of belief.
[QUOTE=Falubii;38934586]Then you weren't learning the faith correctly. Catholic hell is a fundamental, necessary aspect of the religion.[/QUOTE] Catholics not adhering to every part of the religion wouldn't be a new thing, really. I was "raised" catholic, and the extent of it was being baptized and then never going to a church again.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;38934628]''all homosexuals deserve to die but I won't kill them myself because I'm lazy and timid''- the words of a perfectly OK person, according to you.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Mr. N;38934499]Because [b]some[/b] are A. Not the simple or B. Not bothering anybody You're a fucking asshole buddy, get the fuck out if you are going to be a giant cunt over a post that was hardly even hostile.[/QUOTE] As someone who grew up in Northeastern America, that was never a problem at all. Nobody is like that, and if they were, they didn't say it. I know people like that exist, but the problem is that you are generalizing an entire belief, and that is inane. So as I said before, go back to /r/athiesm. Actually, I feel like I am that one guy who is arguing with an eight year old, and everyone is laughing at me. So I am going to ignore you now.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;38934568] if you actually think that in the grand scheme of things "militant" atheists are doing more harm than militant theists you are just delusional[/QUOTE] In the grand scheme, both sides are just awful. Really, this is just Dawkins trying to get people's attention by spouting shit that some people are dumb enough to agree with.
If Dawkins is allowed to backstep and say "oh, I only meant [I]strict[/I] catholics", then I deserve the right to say that [I]I[/I] only meant [I]the most serious[/I] child abuse. I'm talking locking them away and never letting them see the light of day, frequent rape, etc. If he's restricting it to only strict adherents to catholics, nobody even disagrees with him and it's a pointless conclusion (or at least, it's uncontroversial as far as the facepunch demographic goes), and if he doesn't restrict it, then the there doesn't seem to be any meaningful way of distinguishing between different cases of child abuse and religious upbringing. 'religious upbringing is worse than child abuse' is just meaningless until you've specified which cases you're using as empirical evidence.
That is pretty extreme.
If he meant abusive parents who are Catholic who beat their children and force them into things using violence or threats, the same could be said for any abusive family who belongs to a group/religion. How about this: child abuse is bad, no matter the reason. But he doesn't say that, since that's common sense.
[QUOTE=The_J_Hat;38934702]In the grand scheme, both sides are just awful. Really, this is just Dawkins trying to get people's attention by spouting shit that some people are dumb enough to agree with.[/QUOTE] In the grand scheme, you have to admit militant-theists does more harm as a whole. Both are awful though, it's just that militant anti theists can't do much as of now.
[QUOTE=BenJammin';38934323]I got so much slack for hating Dawkins over here, now you guys know why I hate this asshole.[/QUOTE] You might hate him, but he's right.
[QUOTE=Mr. N;38934734]In the grand scheme, you have to admit militant-theists does more harm as a whole. Both are awful though, it's just that militant anti theists can't do much as of now.[/QUOTE] I'm not arguing about the harm they do. I'm merely saying that they should just be done away with. [editline]22nd December 2012[/editline] I'm not saying they should all be killed.
I come from an extremely christian family and I was convinced I was going to hell for everything and anything I did. I was told that my non-christian friends were going to burn in hell, Stayed up hours into the night praying and trying to ask forgiveness for them and myself for coming into contact with these people. I was just so fucking terrified to live my life because I wasn't able to be a perfect Christian. I'm not sure how comparable it is to rape, since I've never been sexually abused to my knowledge. But it's obviously does something to the mind when you're constantly told you're doing something wrong and evil.
Either way, knowing that you will burn for all eternity, you shouldn't do bad things, should you now? Oh wait, even that doesn't stop us from doing bad things.
[QUOTE=Mr. N;38934687]As someone who grew up in Northeastern America, that was never a problem at all. Nobody is like that, and if they were, they didn't say it. I know people like that exist, but the problem is that you are generalizing an entire belief, and that is inane. So as I said before, go back to /r/athiesm. Actually, I feel like I am that one guy who is arguing with an eight year old, and everyone is laughing at me. So I am going to ignore you now.[/QUOTE] ''this book is the word of god, accept there are multiple instances where entire pages are just typos where god wasn't really paying attention and accidentally said kill all homosexuals'' or better yet ''I'm christian but I don't believe in the bible because I'm scared to die but don't want people to hate me'' if securing yourself an imaginary seat in an imaginary heaven is so important to you, you're going to have to deal with the fact that you're aligning yourself with borderline brain dead people who ACTUALLY believe in the religion that you claim to believe in.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;38934277]I know people call Dawkins an ass, but he says the harsh bitter truth that we tend to ignore when we become more passive about people's ideologies; at least at Facepunch, we've become much more accepting of religion than we were in 2007-2009, and that's a good thing, but there still needs to be someone out there that can point out the bullshit. Some of my closest friends were Catholic, and honestly it was one of the biggest reasons they had the issues they had. One of my friends was so afraid of being sent to hell for eternal damnation, that she literally harmed herself every time she had a "tempting" thought about men. Her sister was a lesbian, and her family disowned her, she didn't talk to her again until she graduated high school, and now she herself is in an abusive relationship that she has no desire to get out of. While I'm not citing the religion to blame, since I know that dumb-ass parents can be dumb-ass parents regardless of ideologies, the Catholic ideologies that they forced on her, and they way they justified those ideologies led to some horrific results. I'm not saying Child Sexual Abuse isn't bad, or abuse in general, as I was raised with an abusive father and know full well the pain it can bring, but it isn't a stretch to say that being raised being told [b]"you're going to hell for looking at a girl, or thinking about one, or thinking about sinning in any way shape or form. You're an awful monster of sin, repent"[/b] can have some [b]AWFUL[/b] results on an impressionable child. Honestly, worse than CSA in my opinion. Dawkins is an ass, but he's the ass we need.[/QUOTE] But, that [i]is[/i] child abuse. For someone to raise someone like this isn't worse than abuse because it is abuse.
[QUOTE=The_J_Hat;38934702]In the grand scheme, both sides are just awful.[/quote] [url=http://lesswrong.com/lw/yp/pretending_to_be_wise/]"now, now, both sides in this debate are idiots, which is why intelligent people such as myself take no heed of such trivial matters" - you[/url] i mean really do you see militant atheists going around mutilating genitals or flying planes into buildings or what have you? the most bad thing i've seen them do are hurt people's feelings (read: attacking a sacred cow) [quote]Really, this is just Dawkins trying to get people's attention by spouting shit that some people are dumb enough to agree with.[/QUOTE] notreally you should see the context of how he said it
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