• Dawkins: "Being raised Catholic is worse than child abuse"
    355 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;38935808]you're acting like you think christianity doesn't constantly contradict itself. christianity condemns evil doers to death in this life, and eternal torture in the next. I think you're confusing sin with evil, and I think you're confusing christianity with a sensible belief system.[/QUOTE] Christianity condemns no one. It infact is the way to eternal life. You condemn yourself to Hell and when you are in Hell you will know that it was your choice that you are there. Sin is the very definition of evil, evil is the absence of good and as God is completely good and abhors sin, sin is evil. No wonder you think Christianity contradicts itself if you can't grasp basic principles that are its foundation.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;38934967]To me, when someone is arguing militantly (as opposed to arguing in a level-headed, uncontroversial, logical fashion)[/QUOTE] Well I can spot one issue already--you've equated an argument's militancy with whether or not it is controversial, and by extension with its level-headedness. Both are quite wrong, since whether or not an argument is controversial depends on entirely on the reaction of others.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;38935808]you're acting like you think christianity doesn't constantly contradict itself. christianity condemns evil doers to death in this life, and eternal torture in the next. I think you're confusing sin with evil, and I think you're confusing christianity with a sensible belief system.[/QUOTE] I'm not acting like it, I simply don't think it does. I also think you're bringing up un-backed claims that are not relevant to what I'm saying, I was simply informing someone about their misconceptions about salvation in Christianity. Sin and evil are essentially synonymous in Christianity by the way.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38935852]Christianity condemns no one. It infact is the way to eternal life. You condemn yourself to Hell and when you are in Hell you will know that it was your choice that you are there.[/quote] Even though various sects of Christianity, varying from huge to small in prominence, directly contradict this? [QUOTE=Thom12255;38935852]Sin is the very definition of evil, evil is the absence of good and as God is completely good and abhors sin, sin is evil. No wonder you think Christianity contradicts itself if you can't grasp basic principles that are its foundation.[/QUOTE] Well by this definition of God you run into Epicurus' problem: How can a God that is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-good allow for the existence of unnecessary evil? You would either have to argue that all evil in the world is necessary, something I think you would have a hard time doing, or that God really is condemning certain people to untimely deaths (or other seemingly unnecessary evil acts), in which case you would have to concede that he is not good, or at least not all-good.
[QUOTE=Megafan;38935898]Even though various sects of Christianity, varying from huge to small in prominence, directly contradict this?[/quote] In what way? [quote]Well by this definition of God you run into Epicurus' problem: How can a God that is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-good allow for the existence of unnecessary evil? You would either have to argue that all evil in the world is necessary, something I think you would have a hard time doing, or that God really is condemning certain people to untimely deaths (or other seemingly unnecessary evil acts), in which case you would have to concede that he is not good, or at least not all-good.[/QUOTE] He allows us freedom of will and he does not tolerate evil, else, why would he have created Hell?
[QUOTE=Falubii;38935605]Then you weren't a catholic and shouldn't have identified yourself as one.[/QUOTE] If we didn't consider everyone who, through a combination of cognitive dissonance and creative reinterpretations of the Bible, simply believed what was the most convenient and compatible with their own values to be Christian, then even the WBC would be too liberal to count.
So what he's saying is that being raised as a catholic is worst than this? [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkC1EGLsnkY[/media] yeah what an idiot
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;38935870]I'm not acting like it, I simply don't think it does. I also think you're bringing up un-backed claims that are not relevant to what I'm saying, I was simply informing someone about their misconceptions about salvation in Christianity. Sin and evil are essentially synonymous in Christianity by the way.[/QUOTE] if you don't bother to tell a priest that you stole a kit kat from the store, according to the bible, you WILL be tortured in hell forever. yes, there is a way out, no matter how horrific your crimes, but you said that christianity doesn't punish evil. you definitely just called facts ''un-backed''. so as your feeble brain has determined, the bible has no contradictions. well: GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. so here the human author of the bible clearly states that beast came before man. GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. and here another human author of the bible was apparently talking to the wrong god, because as you can see, he seems to think man came before beast.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;38935946]if you don't bother to tell a priest that you stole a kit kat from the store, according to the bible, you WILL be tortured in hell forever. yes, there is a way out, no matter how horrific your crimes, but you said that christianity doesn't punish evil. you definitely just called facts ''un-backed''. so as your feeble brain has determined, the bible has no contradictions. well: [/QUOTE] Well that's true for Catholics yes. Protestants believe that once you've accepted salvation by accepting Jesus's sacrifice on the cross you are saved for eternity and no matter what sin you have committed or will commit will ever take that away from you. Christianity doesn't punish evil, Christianity is a religion in which people love and accept Jesus. It is God who will punish evil and he only punishes those who did not accept his free gift of salvation from sin. It is not up to Christians to punish evil, that is not what we are called to do.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38935977]Well that's true for Catholics yes. Protestants believe that once you've accepted salvation by accepting Jesus's sacrifice on the cross you are saved for eternity and no matter what sin you have committed or will commit will ever take that away from you. Christianity doesn't punish evil, Christianity is a religion in which people love and accept Jesus. It is God who will punish evil and he only punishes those who did not accept his free gift of salvation from sin. It is not up to Christians to punish evil, that is not what we are called to do.[/QUOTE] Protestantism: Because Hitler and the WBC should go to heaven, but Stephen Fry deserves eternal torment.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;38935997]Protestantism: Because Hitler and the WBC should go to heaven, but Stephen Fry deserves eternal torment.[/QUOTE] do you even know what the fuck you're talking about (answer: no)
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;38935946]if you don't bother to tell a priest that you stole a kit kat from the store, according to the bible, you WILL be tortured in hell forever. yes, there is a way out, no matter how horrific your crimes, but you said that christianity doesn't punish evil. you definitely just called facts ''un-backed''. so as your feeble brain has determined, the bible has no contradictions. well: GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. so here the human author of the bible clearly states that beast came before man. GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. and here another human author of the bible was apparently talking to the wrong god, because as you can see, he seems to think man came before beast.[/QUOTE] Seeing as though Moses wrote both of those chapters they are the same author. Let's finish that verse of shall we? "19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him." It is clearly carrying on from Verse 18 in that Adam can not find companion ship with all the animals that already exist in the world.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38935852]Christianity condemns no one. It infact is the way to eternal life. You condemn yourself to Hell and when you are in Hell you will know that it was your choice that you are there. Sin is the very definition of evil, evil is the absence of good and as God is completely good and abhors sin, sin is evil. No wonder you think Christianity contradicts itself if you can't grasp basic principles that are its foundation.[/QUOTE] the following is a list of people (that I can recall) ''god'' clearly instructs his followers to kill. false prophets, homosexuals, disobedient children, people who wear clothes made out of multiple fabrics. ''christianity doesn't condemn anybody'' can you be any more clueless.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;38936004]do you even know what the fuck you're talking about (answer: no)[/QUOTE] [IMG]http://i46.tinypic.com/2ai51kg.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;38936009]the following is a list of people (that I can recall) ''god'' clearly instructs his followers to kill. false prophets, homosexuals, disobedient children, people who wear clothes made out of multiple fabrics. ''christianity doesn't condemn anybody'' can you be any more clueless.[/QUOTE] Welcome to the old testament laws for the Hebrews who guess what, didn't even follow most of those laws. Those are not Christian laws. Jesus made it quite clear what Christians are to do in life and going around enforcing God's law isn't one of them, you are to enforce it to yourself but forcing others isn't apart of it.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38936008]Seeing as though Moses wrote both of those chapters they are the same author. Let's finish that verse of shall we? "19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him." It is clearly carrying on from Verse 18 in that Adam can not find companion ship with all the animals that already exist in the world.[/QUOTE] ok, and your point would be relevant, if it wasn't stated in an earlier verse that beast came before man.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38935921]He allows us freedom of will and he does not tolerate evil, else, why would he have created Hell?[/QUOTE] Even in cases of natural disasters, where the direct prevention of deaths would have no effect on free will?
[QUOTE=Megafan;38936065]Even in cases of natural disasters, where the direct prevention of deaths would have no effect on free will?[/QUOTE] As God allows Humans to sin in direct violation of his law he also allows the earth to show the consequences that sin has on creation. Sin is the cause of death and suffering in this world and also the cause for the problems the Earth has, it has been like this ever since Adam and Eve sinned. God can use terrible events such as natural disasters for good however, how many people might re-evaluate their stance on life as a result and become Christians? You are asking the wrong question, it is not "Why does God let natural disasters occur?" but "Why did we allow sin into creation?" I don't expect an atheist to get much out of that but to a Christian it perfectly explains why things are as they are.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38936030]Welcome to the old testament laws for the Hebrews who guess what, didn't even follow most of those laws. Those are not Christian laws. Jesus made it quite clear what Christians are to do in life and going around enforcing God's law isn't one of them, you are to enforce it to yourself but forcing others isn't apart of it.[/QUOTE] Funny how all the messed up stuff in the Bible becomes "mistranslated" or "misinterpreted" or "no longer valid" only after society stops finding those sorts of things acceptable. It's like 2000 years of backpedaling.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;38936138]Funny how all the messed up stuff in the Bible becomes "mistranslated" or "misinterpreted" or "no longer valid" only after society stops finding those sorts of things acceptable. It's like 2000 years of backpedaling.[/QUOTE] The Hebrew's in the old testament lived in a theocracy. That was God's law as at the time there was no Jesus to cover our sins. After Jesus instead of a governmental theocracy it changed to - “The kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21). Jesus made it quite clear that due to his sacrifice those laws are no longer necessary as he paid the price. Jesus himself fulfilled everything else. "4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" (Romans 10:4). It's hard to back-pedal on something over 2000 years when this was stated way back 2000 years ago and is what Christianity has ever since been based on. “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…and to love your neighbour as yourself” (Matthew 22:37-39).
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38936271]Jesus made it quite clear that due to his sacrifice all that is required now is this. Jesus himself fulfilled everything else. It's hard to back-pedal on something over 2000 years when this was stated way back 2000 years ago and is what Christianity has ever since been based on. “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…and to love your neighbour as yourself” (Matthew 22:37-39).[/QUOTE] the only records there are of jesus are in the bible. if you start picking parts of the bible and saying ''this part isn't true'' then ultimately neither is anything else as far as we're concerned.
fuck no I'm not getting into this bullshit again
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;38936360]the only records there are of jesus are in the bible. if you start picking parts of the bible and saying ''this part isn't true'' then ultimately neither is anything else as far as we're concerned.[/QUOTE] Where did I say something wasn't true? Those were laws during the times of the Old Testament and they applied to the people of Israel. However, the bible clearly states that those laws are no longer necessary because of Jesus's sacrifice. Why would there be records of Jesus outside of the Bible and what is wrong with me quoting from the bible when this is about what the Bible teaches? Jesus was a very insignificant figure for the majority of his life, he never travelled outside of Judea and spent most of his time with simple people, not the rich. It's not surprising that nobody wrote a whole history on his life outside of the apostles.
I was raised Catholic and I'm fine. Well I mean my dad is Catholic and my mom is like something else, begins with a "P" I think. I grew up mostly believing in God and all that, but now I'm more agnostic leaning toward atheism. So I'd say it's all good.
I was raised Catholic and I was taught all Jews go to hell
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;38936360]if you start picking parts of the bible and saying ''this part isn't true'' then ultimately neither is anything else as far as we're concerned.[/QUOTE] What sort of logic is that
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38936426]Where did I say something wasn't true? Those were laws during the times of the Old Testament and they applied to the people of Israel. However, the bible clearly states that those laws are no longer necessary because of Jesus's sacrifice. Why would there be records of Jesus outside of the Bible and what is wrong with me quoting from the bible when this is about what the Bible teaches? Jesus was a very insignificant figure for the majority of his life, he never travelled outside of Judea and spent most of his time with simple people, not the rich. It's not surprising that nobody wrote a whole history on his life outside of the apostles.[/QUOTE] the new testament is nothing more than a revision to appeal to the masses. it takes an extremely naive mind to fail to realize that.
[QUOTE=Megafan;38935868]Well I can spot one issue already--you've equated an argument's militancy with whether or not it is controversial, and by extension with its level-headedness. Both are quite wrong, since whether or not an argument is controversial depends on entirely on the reaction of others.[/QUOTE] I'm not equating the two at all. I don't think Dawkins' interesting conclusions are hugely controversial; he just presents them as a great deal more controversial than they need to be seemingly for no sensible reason. His conclusions aren't so controversial because of the content, but the delivery.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;38936582]the new testament is nothing more than a revision to appeal to the masses. it takes an extremely naive mind to fail to realize that.[/QUOTE] I just involuntarily facepalmed.
[QUOTE=RobbL;38936566]What sort of logic is that[/QUOTE] At what point can you discard everything a book claims, how many things have to be proven false before you can just say "Okay, this is just rubbish out with it"?
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