• Dawkins: "Being raised Catholic is worse than child abuse"
    355 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Rika-chan;38936503]I was raised Catholic and I was taught all Jews go to hell[/QUOTE] Jews don't have a hell.
[QUOTE=Coffee;38936672]Jews don't have a hell.[/QUOTE] But Catholics do?
Oh, this thread degraded fast. From hating on Dawkins to discussion about two thousand years old Hebrew fairy tales.
I find Protestant and Catholic squabbling hilarious, it's like two people arguing over whether the Easter bunny lays the eggs itself, or just paints them.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38936114]As God allows Humans to sin in direct violation of his law he also allows the earth to show the consequences that sin has on creation. Sin is the cause of death and suffering in this world and also the cause for the problems the Earth has, it has been like this ever since Adam and Eve sinned. God can use terrible events such as natural disasters for good however, how many people might re-evaluate their stance on life as a result and become Christians? You are asking the wrong question, it is not "Why does God let natural disasters occur?" but "Why did we allow sin into creation?" I don't expect an atheist to get much out of that but to a Christian it perfectly explains why things are as they are.[/QUOTE] You don't even answer the question, you jump around it saying God like to punish humanity because of its nature.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38936597]I just involuntarily facepalmed.[/QUOTE] JESUS DIDN'T EXIST BEFORE THE OLD TESTAMENT! this seems futile, but I'm going to try my very best to help you understand why your entire life is false. I'm going to do this by putting your logic into context with a different situation, let's see how that goes. so imagine, if you will, you're in a public place and a stranger engages in conversation with you. after a bit nonsense social dribble, you start to realize that he thinks the events of star wars: the clone wars actually happened. you point out the fact that george lucas created star wars as a work of fiction, and he quickly counters that, and proceeds to tell you that he believes that the events, stories and characters of the original star wars films are completely fictional, while the events of the clone wars cartoon are a separate, non-fictional group of events that actually occurred. this is how logical people view you and people like you.
[QUOTE=Vasili;38936738]You don't even answer the question, you jump around it saying God like to punish humanity because of its nature.[/QUOTE] Nowhere did I say that God likes to punish humanity. Read it again, it's pretty clear that I did answer the question.
[QUOTE=mobrockers2;38936644]At what point can you discard everything a book claims, how many things have to be proven false before you can just say "Okay, this is just rubbish out with it"?[/QUOTE] That's irrelevant when we know very little about how those who wrote it intended it to be read and interpreted Anyway, you could say the same thing of an outdated science textbook in all fairness btw, this 'discarding' of claims in the Bible happens over a long period of time. Religion changes you know.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38936686]But Catholics do?[/QUOTE] Hell and purgatory was a catholic invention.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;38936740] so imagine, if you will, you're in a public place and a stranger engages in conversation with you. after a bit nonsense social dribble, you start to realize that he thinks the events of star wars: the clone wars actually happened. you point out the fact that george lucas created star wars as a work of fiction, and he quickly counters that, and proceeds to tell you that he believes that the events, stories and characters of the original star wars films are completely fictional, while the events of the clone wars cartoon are a separate, non-fictional group of events that actually occurred.[/QUOTE] And then that stranger proceeds to say you should respect his insanity.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;38936723]I find Protestant and Catholic squabbling hilarious, it's like two people arguing over whether the Easter bunny lays the eggs itself, or just paints them.[/QUOTE] A person who has no interest in political discussion could say the same. [editline]22nd December 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Vasili;38936770]Hell and purgatory was a catholic invention.[/QUOTE] Yes, that's why the think Jews go to them...
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38936766]Nowhere did I say that God likes to punish humanity. Read it again, it's pretty clear that I did answer the question.[/QUOTE] You insinuated it, God allows humanity to be itself and as a result punishes humanity for that exact act.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;38936740][B]JESUS DIDN'T EXIST BEFORE THE OLD TESTAMENT![/B] this seems futile, but I'm going to try my very best to help you understand why your entire life is false. I'm going to do this by putting your logic into context with a different situation, let's see how that goes. so imagine, if you will, you're in a public place and a stranger engages in conversation with you. after a bit nonsense social dribble, you start to realize that he thinks the events of star wars: the clone wars actually happened. you point out the fact that george lucas created star wars as a work of fiction, and he quickly counters that, and proceeds to tell you that he believes that the events, stories and characters of the original star wars films are completely fictional, while the events of the clone wars cartoon are a separate, non-fictional group of events that actually occurred. this is how logical people view you and people like you.[/QUOTE] I'm beginning to think you are trolling, I don't think someone could honestly come up with this in a serious discussion. Christians in the 1st century were persecuted by almost everyone. They put up with it because they believed with all their heart that Jesus was real and most of them were witness's to what he did, even with all this persecution they grew and are today the largest religion in the world. You are trying to say that one day a bunch of Jews just made up everything in the New Testament and proceeded to be killed in gladiatorial rings in Rome or mocked by their fellow Jews for a laugh? I facepalmed at what I bolded.
[QUOTE=RobbL;38936769]That's irrelevant when we know very little about how those who wrote it intended it to be read and interpreted Anyway, you could say the same thing of an outdated science textbook in all fairness[/QUOTE] If you know very little of who wrote it and how it was supposed to be interpreted, then perhaps you shouldn't have a religion based around it?
[QUOTE=Vasili;38936812]You insinuated it, God allows humanity to be itself and as a result punishes humanity for that exact act.[/QUOTE] No. The effects of sin on this world are not from God but from the sin that we unleashed on creation. [editline]22nd December 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Mingebox;38936829]If you know very little of who wrote it and how it was supposed to be interpreted, then perhaps you shouldn't have a religion based around it?[/QUOTE] It's not hard to read what the apostles wrote. Unless you think they never existed or are lying of course which Christians of course don't.
i would not consider it child abuse but instilling ignorance in a child of the world has got to be damaging to our own future as a race.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38936828]I'm beginning to think you are trolling, I don't think someone could honestly come up with this in a serious discussion. Christians in the 1st century were persecuted by almost everyone. They put up with it because they believed with all their heart that Jesus was real and most of them were witness's to what he did, even with all this persecution they grew and are today the largest religion in the world. You are trying to say that one day a bunch of Jews just made up everything in the New Testament and proceeded to be killed in gladiatorial rings in Rome or mocked by their fellow Jews for a laugh?[/QUOTE] before the old testament, there was no christianity. the new testament was written while christianity was already a developed religion with masses of followers. how can there be any credibility to that? ''we believe in this ancient religion, and we're just going to change it to our liking and it'll still be the word of god''. this is the reality of the situation, you're either a true christian and you fully believe in the old testament, or you're afraid to die so you've chosen aspects of a religion to follow. and yes, I do realize that most christians don't believe in the more horrific aspects of it's teachings. this makes you less immoral, but it also makes you less intelligent.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38936834]No. The effects of sin on this world are not from God but from the sin that we unleashed on creation. [/QUOTE] Elaborate.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38936828]You are trying to say that one day a bunch of Jews just made up everything in the New Testament and proceeded to be killed in gladiatorial rings in Rome or mocked by their fellow Jews for a laugh?[/QUOTE] We will probably never know this until Christianity finally collapses on itself and Vatican's archives are opened, but I'm pretty sure that's more or less how things gone. That's how most sects come to life - they are based on something (like, that Jesus guy is based on a real guy who claimed to be Messiah) and then, with time, the "lore" gets modified. Angels appear, just Mary becomes Virgin Mary and so on. [QUOTE=Thom12255;38936834]No. The effects of sin on this world are not from God but from the sin that we unleashed on creation.[/QUOTE] But that's laughable, because Christianity relies on assumption that god created everything, including the sin, the satan and all that stuff. He's like, omniscient after all? So in the end, it really is - god created humans, in a way they had no other choice but to "unleash the sin on creation" and then be punished for it. And that's precisely why it's all made up ancient fairy tale, it lacks common sense.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;38936829]If you know very little of who wrote it and how it was supposed to be interpreted, then perhaps you shouldn't have a religion based around it?[/QUOTE] There are of course the factors of how Christianity came about and developed in the first place, not to mention the many divisions of it and how they all believe the Bible is meant to be interpreted differently. We know a good deal of the Bible is nearly certainly true, and people fill in the gaps and have faith in what's uncertain, hence the term itself
[QUOTE=Vasili;38936893]Elaborate.[/QUOTE] It is basic doctrine that when Adam and Eve sinned by disobeying God in the Garden of Eden by eating the Forbidden fruit that sin entered the world and made all of creation imperfect because of it. Romans 8:22 "22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now." Genesis 3:18 "cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field." [editline]22nd December 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Bruhmis;38936885]before the old testament, there was no christianity. the new testament was written while christianity was already a developed religion with masses of followers. how can there be any credibility to that? ''we believe in this ancient religion, and we're just going to change it to our liking and it'll still be the word of god''. this is the reality of the situation, you're either a true christian and you fully believe in the old testament, or you're afraid to die so you've chosen aspects of a religion to follow. and yes, I do realize that most christians don't believe in the more horrific aspects of it's teachings. this makes you less immoral, but it also makes you less intelligent.[/QUOTE] The New Testament is written by the apostles who were with Jesus through most of his preaching life and were the ones who spread Christianity to others. The New Testament itself was not complied into a single book until years later however. You clearly haven't given a shit about what I have said throughout this thread, I have already told you that Christians are not bound by old testament law as it is no longer required by God but you still say the same stuff over and over.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38936953]It is basic doctrine that when Adam and Eve sinned by disobeying God in the Garden of Eden by eating the Forbidden fruit that sin entered the world and made all of creation imperfect because of it. Romans 8:22 "22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now." Genesis 3:18 "cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field."[/QUOTE] God put the tree there, he knew that Adam and Eve would take from it as God is all knowing. Of course unless you're willing to admit that God is not omnipotence
[QUOTE=Vasili;38936997]God put the tree there, he knew that Adam and Eve would take from it as God is all knowing. Of course unless you're willing to admit that God is not omnipotence[/QUOTE] God did know, he gave us freedom of will to choose to be good or to be bad, we chose the latter and suffer the consequences which God told us would come if we disobeyed. He also sent Jesus to pay for our sins so that we can be saved and rejoin God by our own choice. God allowed us to sin so that further down the line we could freely choose to be with him in eternity, he doesn't force people to be with him. I really hope you aren't feeling smug with that last comment, these questions you are asking aren't complicated and you could find the answers in seconds by just searching any Christian bible website.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38935852]Christianity condemns no one. It infact is the way to eternal life. You condemn yourself to Hell and when you are in Hell you will know that it was your choice that you are there. [/QUOTE] That's like a dictator deciding to make owning a Bible a capital offence, and then when people call him a tyrant saying 'I didn't condemn those people, they [i]chose[/i] to be executed by owning a Bible.' [quote]It is basic doctrine that when Adam and Eve sinned by disobeying God in the Garden of Eden by eating the Forbidden fruit that sin entered the world and made all of creation imperfect because of it.[/quote] and where does evolution fit into this
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38937029]God did know, he gave us freedom of will to choose to be good or to be bad, we chose the latter and suffer the consequences which God told us would come if we disobeyed. He also sent Jesus to pay for our sins so that we can be saved and rejoin God by our own choice. God allowed us to sin so that further down the line we could freely choose to be with him in eternity, he doesn't force people to be with him. I really hope you aren't feeling smug with that last comment, these questions you are asking aren't complicated and you could find the answers in seconds by just searching any Christian bible website.[/QUOTE] If God knew what we were going to do before we did it then we do no have free will.
[QUOTE=CatFodder;38937041] and where does evolution fit into this[/QUOTE] What if I told you that the entirety of the old testament was completely metaphorical in order to teach morality and meaning?
[QUOTE=CatFodder;38937041]That's like a dictator deciding to make owning a Bible a capital offence, and then when people call him a tyrant saying 'I didn't condemn those people, they [i]chose[/i] to be executed by owning a Bible.'[/QUOTE] no God is the creator of the universe, he can do whatever he wants. We are his servants, we do not have the authority to oppose him. He has given us all a chance to be redeemed through Christ, those who do not accept his free gift have made the choice to reject him and thus will be thrown into Hell for eternity where they will be cut off from God just like they chose to be, however, they will immediately regret this and that is what makes Hell such a terrible place, your own guilt.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;38936740]JESUS DIDN'T EXIST BEFORE THE OLD TESTAMENT! this seems futile, but I'm going to try my very best to help you understand why your entire life is false. I'm going to do this by putting your logic into context with a different situation, let's see how that goes. so imagine, if you will, you're in a public place and a stranger engages in conversation with you. after a bit nonsense social dribble, you start to realize that he thinks the events of star wars: the clone wars actually happened. you point out the fact that george lucas created star wars as a work of fiction, and he quickly counters that, and proceeds to tell you that he believes that the events, stories and characters of the original star wars films are completely fictional, while the events of the clone wars cartoon are a separate, non-fictional group of events that actually occurred. this is how logical people view you and people like you.[/QUOTE] I love it when religious zealots argue about how their beliefs are undeniable fact. (you)
[QUOTE=CatFodder;38937041] and where does evolution fit into this[/QUOTE] If you believe in mankind having a sinful nature, then nowhere.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38936114]As God allows Humans to sin in direct violation of his law he also allows the earth to show the consequences that sin has on creation. Sin is the cause of death and suffering in this world and also the cause for the problems the Earth has, it has been like this ever since Adam and Eve sinned. God can use terrible events such as natural disasters for good however, how many people might re-evaluate their stance on life as a result and become Christians? You are asking the wrong question, it is not "Why does God let natural disasters occur?" but "Why did we allow sin into creation?" I don't expect an atheist to get much out of that but to a Christian it perfectly explains why things are as they are.[/QUOTE] Is there anything in the real world to support this as truth?
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