• Dawkins: "Being raised Catholic is worse than child abuse"
    355 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Vasili;38937054]If God knew what we were going to do before we did it then we do no have free will.[/QUOTE] What? How does that make any sense? So if a time traveller went into the future, saw you make coffee the next morning and then he returns to the present, does that mean you didn't have a choice in making that cup of coffee?
[QUOTE=Paramud;38937070]I love it when religious zealots argue about how their beliefs are undeniable fact. (you)[/QUOTE] fossils from more than 5000 years ago exist- undeniable fact. earth isn't flat and square- undeniable fact
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38937069]no God is the creator of the universe, he can do whatever he wants. We are his servants, we do not have the authority to oppose him. He has given us all a chance to be redeemed through Christ, those who do not accept his free gift have made the choice to reject him and thus will be thrown into Hell for eternity where they will be cut off from God just like they chose to be, however, they will immediately regret this and that is what makes Hell such a terrible place, your own guilt.[/QUOTE] Awfully presumptuous there.
[QUOTE=Coffee;38937062]What if I told you that the entirety of the old testament was completely metaphorical in order to teach morality and meaning?[/QUOTE] I would think that it's awfully convenient that all of the most repulsive and bizarre bits of the Bible can be handily dismissed as 'metaphor'.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38937029]God did know, he gave us [b]freedom of will[/b] to choose to be good or to be bad, we chose the latter and suffer the consequences which God told us would come if we disobeyed. He also sent Jesus to pay for our sins so that we can be saved and rejoin God by our own choice. God allowed us to sin so that further down the line we could freely choose to be with him in eternity, he doesn't force people to be with him. I really hope you aren't feeling smug with that last comment, these questions you are asking aren't complicated and you could find the answers in seconds by just searching any Christian bible website.[/QUOTE] its a shame free will doesnt exist
[QUOTE=CatFodder;38937092]I would think that it's awfully convenient that all of the most repulsive and bizarre bits of the Bible can be handily dismissed as 'metaphor'.[/QUOTE] some bits [I]might [/I]be based on actual events, but in fact may just be explanations for events when nobody knew any better.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38937069]no God is the creator of the universe, he can do whatever he wants. We are his servants, we do not have the authority to oppose him. He has given us all a chance to be redeemed through Christ, those who do not accept his free gift have made the choice to reject him and thus will be thrown into Hell for eternity where they will be cut off from God just like they chose to be, however, they will immediately regret this and that is what makes Hell such a terrible place, your own guilt.[/QUOTE] In that case God is a kid with a magnifying glass and is not worthy of worship. Also it's not much of a 'free gift' if just being born in the wrong culture or having a rational mind disqualify you from it.
I don't much see the point of continuing a discussion which has devolved into not a search for answers but instead looking to refute everything that I say...
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38936953]It is basic doctrine that when Adam and Eve sinned by disobeying God in the Garden of Eden by eating the Forbidden fruit that sin entered the world and made all of creation imperfect because of it. Romans 8:22 "22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now." Genesis 3:18 "cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field." [editline]22nd December 2012[/editline] The New Testament is written by the apostles who were with Jesus through most of his preaching life and were the ones who spread Christianity to others. The New Testament itself was not complied into a single book until years later however. You clearly haven't given a shit about what I have said throughout this thread, I have already told you that Christians are not bound by old testament law as it is no longer required by God but you still say the same stuff over and over.[/QUOTE] I understand and acknowledge the fact that you and most christians don't follow the old testament, I've said that already. the thing is, you believe in a religion contradicted by science and by itself. I've backed both of those statements up with facts already, I don't see anywhere for you to go in this conversation, unless you tell me the devil invented science.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;38937088]fossils from more than 5000 years ago exist- undeniable fact. earth isn't flat and square- undeniable fact[/QUOTE] Where does the Bible say any of those things?
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38937138]I don't much see the point of continuing a discussion which has devolved into not a search for answers but instead looking to refute everything that I say...[/QUOTE] That's how a debate works. The idea is you respond with counter arguments.
Just for the sake of moving to the other side of the argument, if God was perfect why would he need to create anything in the first place, let alone allow evil? Creating something (or doing anything for that matter) implies a need to be fulfilled, and a perfect being wouldn't have any needs [editline]22nd December 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=CatFodder;38937092]I would think that it's awfully convenient that all of the most repulsive and bizarre bits of the Bible can be handily dismissed as 'metaphor'.[/QUOTE] Or just historical truth and reflections of the culture at the time
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38937138]I don't much see the point of continuing a discussion which has devolved into not a search for answers but instead looking to refute everything that I say...[/QUOTE] free will was [URL="http://www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/history/"]created by the religious[/URL] in order to hold people responsible for actions they did not like. free will has a huge weight of evidence against it in neuroscience, and if that wasnt enough, there are many accounts in all kinds of religious books that actually argue against free will. it doesnt exist.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;38937138]I don't much see the point of continuing a discussion which has devolved into not a search for answers but instead looking to refute everything that I say...[/QUOTE] What did you expect from a *discussion*? For people to just like, believe everything you say, even after you've been cought on ignorance of the particular given religion?
[QUOTE=RobbL;38937197]Just for the sake of moving to the other side of the argument, if God was perfect why would he need to create anything in the first place, let alone allow evil? Creating something (or doing anything for that matter) implies a need to be fulfilled, and a perfect being wouldn't have any needs [editline]22nd December 2012[/editline] Or just historical truth and reflections of the culture at the time[/QUOTE] creation might imply a need for fulfillment for humans, if this god existed he'd likely be nothing like us and as such have alternate reasons for doing everything, including creating. also, the bible clearly states that god is jealous and vengeful(uses those words), the bible's portrayal of ''god'' is far from perfect.
[QUOTE=Mr. N;38934559]I have more people talking in my ear about how much they hate Religion and how it's a horrible evil thing and nothing is worse than it no matter what. I had like, one mormon come to my door in the last year. So I don't know about your choice of company, but for me and a number of others, they are pretty goddamn annoying.[/QUOTE] k name one militant atheist group responsible for areligious terrorism there isn't one name one militant religious group responsible for religious terrorism if you know anything about geopolitics that should be easy
I think the idea that it's worse than child abuse might be a bit silly, but I do think it is immoral to teach a child religion... much in the same way I think pedophilia is immoral. Not that they are the same thing, but they are both working on the same principle. You're taking advantage of a child's gullible nature and trust for adults for guidance. You're stripping them of their free will, taking advantage of them, and not letting them make the decision themselves when they are mature enough.
You've got to love the people who are so dedicated to hating religion that they pull the "no true Scotsman" fallacy so that they can claim that anyone who doesn't subscribe to the things they hate about religion isn't a "true Christian". There are plenty of logical and obvious reasons to believe that Christianity is fallacious. If you have to use logical fallacies to discredit Christianity, you're pretty weak minded. Anyone can point out why fundamentalism is stupid and bad. That's child's play. Thinking about the implications and consequences of religion as a whole takes serious critical thinking. For one thing, the idea of God being Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and "perfect" is relatively recent, and contradicted by pretty much every single story in the old testament. The God in the old testament was actually fucking human, much like the old Greek and Roman gods. He didn't know everything, he could only be in one place at a time, he got angry, and at one point he was actually convinced by a mere mortal (Moses) not to destroy the Jews. When you have a God like that, a God that isn't perfect, all of the biggest theological problems with Christianity are gone. However, at that point it becomes a God you worship out of fear.
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;38937311] For one thing, the idea of God being Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and "perfect" is relatively recent, and contradicted by pretty much every single story in the old testament. The God in the old testament was actually fucking human, much like the old Greek and Roman gods. He didn't know everything, he could only be in one place at a time, he got angry, and at one point he was actually convinced by a mere mortal (Moses) not to destroy the Jews. When you have a God like that, a God that isn't perfect, all of the biggest theological problems with Christianity are gone. However, at that point it becomes a God you worship out of fear.[/QUOTE] That's the single greatest thing yet to come out of this thread.
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;38937311]For one thing, the idea of God being Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and "perfect" is relatively recent, and contradicted by pretty much every single story in the old testament. The God in the old testament was actually fucking human, much like the old Greek and Roman gods. He didn't know everything, he could only be in one place at a time, he got angry, and at one point he was actually convinced by a mere mortal (Moses) not to destroy the Jews. When you have a God like that, a God that isn't perfect, all of the biggest theological problems with Christianity are gone. However, at that point it becomes a God you worship out of fear.[/QUOTE] Just because the god isn't omnipotent that does not mean you have to worship it out of fear, although the old testament god was like that, and in a way even the new testament god is. Hell, there really are very few gods that aren't portrayed as trying to scare you into their worship.
[QUOTE=PelPix123;38936899]I lost respect for Dawkins when he said that that hard-working geneticist that devoted his life to treating untreatable diseases "wasn't a real scientist" because he happened to be christian, despite his prize-worthy background in treating disease.[/QUOTE] who was this? I can't find anything on this anywhere I did find a biologist saying [I]Dawkins[/I] [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/aug/18/edward-wilson-harvard-biologist-interview]wasn't a real scientist[/url]
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;38937311] For one thing, the idea of God being Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and "perfect" is relatively recent, and contradicted by pretty much every single story in the old testament. The God in the old testament was actually fucking human, much like the old Greek and Roman gods. He didn't know everything, he could only be in one place at a time, he got angry, and at one point he was actually convinced by a mere mortal (Moses) not to destroy the Jews. When you have a God like that, a God that isn't perfect, all of the biggest theological problems with Christianity are gone. However, at that point it becomes a God you worship out of fear.[/QUOTE] I was thinking the same thing. Obviously the actions of God show he isn't all powerful but then you get claims in the Bible of God himself saying things like "I am the Lord, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me?" when many christians believe the Bible to be the word of God, and not the subjective accounts or of it's writers or even allegory I'm sure the Bible never explicitly states God is perfect though
[quote]I understand and acknowledge the fact that you and most christians don't follow the old testament, I've said that already. the thing is, you believe in a religion contradicted by science and by itself. I've backed both of those statements up with facts already, I don't see anywhere for you to go in this conversation, unless you tell me the devil invented science.[/quote] It's a telling sign of a weak-ass atheist when someone acts like fundamentalism is the only form of Christianity that exists. Fundamentalism is easy to argue against, so if you're arguing against a Christian, just pretend they think that the world is 6000 years old. Now you can declare that they're undeniably wrong without having to actually think about anything.
[QUOTE=thisispain;38937276]k name one militant atheist group responsible for areligious terrorism there isn't one name one militant religious group responsible for religious terrorism if you know anything about geopolitics that should be easy[/QUOTE] You're taking his point waaaaaaaaaay further than he means. He's talking about his own personal experiences of militant atheists being more irritating, nothing more. Not fucking geopolitics.
[QUOTE=Robbobin;38937507]You're taking his point waaaaaaaaaay further than he means. He's talking about his own personal experiences of militant atheists being more irritating, nothing more. Not fucking geopolitics.[/QUOTE] no im accusing him of being myopic totally different
I grew up in a private catholic school and my entire family is catholic. it wasn't that bad because I just didn't give a shit about religion. dawkins is dumb
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;38937488]It's a telling sign of a weak-ass atheist when someone acts like fundamentalism is the only form of Christianity that exists. Fundamentalism is easy to argue against, so if you're arguing against a Christian, just pretend they think that the world is 6000 years old. Now you can declare that they're undeniably wrong without having to actually think about anything.[/QUOTE] That's because the fundamentalists are the only ones worthy of attention, it's them who cause trouble. People who take their holy book and then butcher it, choosing to believe only in nice moral bits, dismissing all the immoral stuff as "metaphor" or "obsolete, god took his words back" are nothing more then mere posers, interest club, who can as well go without The book at all. In the end, it's them who decide, what's moral in that book and what's not. So book or no book - the moral compass has already been set. [editline]22nd December 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=zerothefallen;38937526]I grew up in a private catholic school and my entire family is catholic. [b]it wasn't that bad because [i]I just didn't give a shit about religion[/i].[/b] dawkins is dumb[/QUOTE] Not everyone is like that, you probably know that.
[quote]That's because the fundamentalists are the only ones worthy of attention, it's them who cause trouble. People who take their holy book and then butcher it, choosing to believe only in nice moral bits, dismissing all the immoral stuff as "metaphor" or "obsolete, god took his words back" are nothing more then mere posers, interest club, who can as well go without The book at all. In the end, it's them who decide, what's moral in that book and what's not. So book or no book - the moral compass has already been set.[/quote] I'm sorry, but you can't say that the majority of Christians are "posers" when you aren't even one.
[QUOTE=gudman;38937630]That's because the fundamentalists are the only ones worthy of attention, it's them who cause trouble. People who take their holy book and then butcher it, choosing to believe only in nice moral bits, dismissing all the immoral stuff as "metaphor" or "obsolete, god took his words back" are nothing more then mere posers, interest club, who can as well go without The book at all. In the end, it's them who decide, what's moral in that book and what's not. So book or no book - the moral compass has already been set.[/QUOTE] "nice" moderates also like to quietly vote away people's rights, they just make less of a fuss source: my dad was the most moderate of the moderate catholics, but he was heavily involved in pro-life circles
[QUOTE=Key_in_skillee;38937488]It's a telling sign of a weak-ass atheist when someone acts like fundamentalism is the only form of Christianity that exists. Fundamentalism is easy to argue against, so if you're arguing against a Christian, just pretend they think that the world is 6000 years old. Now you can declare that they're undeniably wrong without having to actually think about anything.[/QUOTE] Dawkins isn't arguing for the sake of arguing. He only argues against fundamentalism because that's what actually affects people negatively. He's mentioned many times in his books how he wouldn't bother with religious debate if it wasn't for the fundamentalists.
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