Justices, 5-4, Tell California to Cut Prisoner Population by more than 30,000
109 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Zeke129;30018928]So if you're willing to admit that your school of thought doesn't work all that well why don't you change it[/QUOTE]
I didn't say it doesn't work that well, I just said it has problems. But I think it has less problems than the alternative would cause.
[QUOTE=Zeke129]If it was an effective deterrence we wouldn't see any recidivism at all [/QUOTE]
If we didn't see any recidivism at all it wouldn't be an "effective deterrence."
It would be a miracle. Just because it isn't 100% effective doesn't mean it's not effective.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30018953]You mean if it was effective at rehabilitation?
Deterrence doesn't affect recidivism.[/QUOTE]
It should, if the idea of prison prevents crime like you say then someone who has experienced it first hand couldn't possibly dream of going back
except they do
[QUOTE=Zeke129;30018962]You basically just said that prison is a deterrence because it isn't a deterrence and it's actually full of people who weren't deterred from crime[/QUOTE]
No I didn't. I suggested that prison time is a deterrence because of the people in there. I never suggested that the people in there weren't deterred.
[QUOTE=Canesfan;30018978]I didn't say it doesn't work that well, I just said it has problems. But I think it has less problems than the alternative would cause.[/quote]
There are real world examples that prove the alternative (rehabilitation) don't cause more problems. Look at Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland.
[editline]23rd May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30018992]No I didn't. I suggested that prison time is a deterrence because of the people in there. I never suggested that the people in there weren't deterred.[/QUOTE]
Well it didn't deter the people inside now did it
[QUOTE=Zeke129;30018979]It should, if the idea of prison prevents crime like you say then someone who has experienced it first hand couldn't possibly dream of going back[/QUOTE]
Not if the person has not been rehabilitated. I thought we had this argument in another thread. I have no doubt that the system is broken and needs fixing, but prison time is a deterrence.
[QUOTE=Canesfan;30018978]I didn't say it doesn't work that well, I just said it has problems. But I think it has less problems than the alternative would cause.
If we didn't see any recidivism at all it wouldn't be an "effective deterrence."
It would be a miracle. Just because it isn't 100% effective doesn't mean it's not effective.[/QUOTE]
um
Norway's system has a third the recidivism rate as the united states
[editline]23rd May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30019031]Not if the person has not been rehabilitated. I thought we had this argument in another thread. I have no doubt that the system is broken and needs fixing, but prison time is a deterrence.[/QUOTE]
not a good one
[QUOTE=Zeke129;30018999]Well it didn't deter the people inside now did it[/QUOTE]
No, probably because they're inside prison as a result of retribution rather than anything else. Elements of a broken prison system.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30019031]Not if the person has not been rehabilitated. I thought we had this argument in another thread. I have no doubt that the system is broken and needs fixing, but prison time is a deterrence.[/QUOTE]
Yeah and I'm saying that you're arguing a really silly catch-22 where prison only works when it has people in it so we can't have it deter too well or it'll stop working
your view makes the transition to a rehabilitation-based justice system impossible
[QUOTE=Lazor;30019038]Norway's system has a third the recidivism rate as the united states[/quote]
As a result of why and how they go about sanctions.
[QUOTE=Lazor;30019038]not a good one[/QUOTE]
Canesfan is right. So far none of your posts have had anything but personal attacks.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;30018375]or stop jailing people for minor drug offenses[/QUOTE]
I agree. Not only should we not be jailing those people, we should be letting them out of prison.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;30019048]Yeah and I'm saying that you're arguing a really silly catch-22 where prison only works when it has people in it so we can't have it deter too well or it'll stop working
your view makes the transition to a rehabilitation-based justice system impossible[/QUOTE]
Not really. You'll find in a rehabilitation based system, deterrence is still a key element of criminal sanctions. Prison is not a place you want to be, obviously, and therefore it is a deterrence.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30019060]As a result of why and how they go about sanctions.
Canesfan is right. So far none of your posts have had anything but personal attacks.[/QUOTE]
there is not a single personal attack in the post you quoted
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30019031]Not if the person has not been rehabilitated. I thought we had this argument in another thread. I have no doubt that the system is broken and needs fixing, but prison time is a deterrence.[/QUOTE]
From first time offenders who i'm sure likely commit crimes in acts of compulsion. you can't deter compulsion
[editline]23rd May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30019086]Not really. You'll find in a rehabilitation based system, deterrence is still a key element of criminal sanctions. Prison is not a place you want to be, obviously, and therefore it is a deterrence.[/QUOTE]
yes, but it doesn't deter repeat criminals nearly as much.
[QUOTE=Lazor;30019096]there is not a single personal attack in the post you quoted[/QUOTE]
if that's the way you see it, then your post was empty.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30019031]prison time is a deterrence.[/QUOTE]
source on this please
if prison time was such a deterrence then why does america have the MOST inmates in the world, the highest incarceration rate, and a very high recidivism rate. after all, america's justice system is notorious on revenge and locking people up, even if it's for petty shit like writing bad checks.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30019127]if that's the way you see it, then your post was empty.[/QUOTE]
what
how the fuck did that post contain a personal attack.
please explain, i'm dying to here how me saying that prison isn't a good deterrence is a personal attack on you.
are you a prison?
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30019086]Not really. You'll find in a rehabilitation based system, deterrence is still a key element of criminal sanctions. Prison is not a place you want to be, obviously, and therefore it is a deterrence.[/QUOTE]
But it's not a very [b]good[/b] deterrence. A better deterrence is making a society where people have very little reason to commit crime in the first place, and if they do due to bad circumstance they'll be treated with dignity and given no reason to do it again.
Of course there are compulsive criminals and that's why I'd never suggest abolishing prison altogether
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;30019098]From first time offenders who i'm sure likely commit crimes in acts of compulsion. you can't deter compulsion[/quote]
Yes you can. But because they're a first time offender it'll most likely mean in a rehabilitation based system, they won't be sent to prison.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;30019098]yes, but it doesn't deter repeat criminals nearly as much.[/QUOTE]
Then that's a problem with rehabilitation.
Lol too bad nothing will change.
Good luck.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30019168]
Then that's a problem with rehabilitation.[/QUOTE]
You'll find in rehabilitation-based systems there are very few repeat offenders
[QUOTE=Zeke129;30019155]But it's not a very [b]good[/b] deterrence. A better deterrence is making a society where people have very little reason to commit crime in the first place, and if they do due to bad circumstance they'll be treated with dignity and given no reason to do it again.[/QUOTE]
When a judge decides criminal sanctions, they pick a multiple of many. Deterrence isn't the only aim to criminal sanctions. A good society will rehabilitate. But even if it isn't a good deterrence, it's one of many different deterrences from committing the crime.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30019168]Then that's a problem with rehabilitation.[/QUOTE]
what the fuck? we're arguing that america's justice system lacks rehabilitation and instead focuses on revenge. the repeat offenses are a result of LACK of rehabilitation.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30019222]When a judge decides criminal sanctions, they pick a multiple of many. Deterrence isn't the only aim to criminal sanctions. A good society will rehabilitate. But even if it isn't a good deterrence, it's one of many different deterrences from committing the crime.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry I didn't really get this post
[QUOTE=Zeke129;30019207]You'll find in rehabilitation-based systems there are very few repeat offenders[/QUOTE]
And? The deterrence from prison will deter people from committing the crime in cases when they have not committed crimes before.
[editline]24th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zeke129;30019240]I'm sorry I didn't really get this post[/QUOTE]
Don't bother.
[editline]24th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=JDK721;30019231]what the fuck? we're arguing that america's justice system lacks rehabilitation and instead focuses on revenge.[/QUOTE]
We are? I thought we were in agreement on this.
What I said was that even for non-violent crimes, prison should still be an option.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30019248]And? The deterrence from prison will deter people from committing the crime in cases when they have not committed crimes before.[/QUOTE]
Most people aren't thinking about prison when they go to commit a crime, to be honest. But give them no reason to go and commit that crime in the first place and you've found your best deterrence.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30019248]What I said was that even for non-violent crimes, prison should still be an option.[/QUOTE]
and I said it should be a LAST RESORT. all I'm saying is don't automatically sentence someone to prison for non violent crimes. look at the circumstances of the case and make a logical decision whether imprisoning them is really necessary and appropriate.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;30019311]Most people aren't thinking about prison when they go to commit a crime, to be honest.[/QUOTE]
You sure about that? Why do some people wear balaclavas while stealing from the servo, or why do people try and cover their tracks in paper trails when committing fraud?
They do it to not be caught.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;30019311]But give them no reason to go and commit that crime in the first place and you've found your best deterrence.[/QUOTE]
I don't disagree.
[editline]24th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=JDK721;30019312]all I'm saying is don't automatically sentence someone to prison for non violent crimes.[/QUOTE]
Elements of a broken system.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30019364]You sure about that? Why do some people wear balaclavas while stealing from the servo, or why do people try and cover their tracks in paper trails when committing fraud?
They do it to not be caught.[/quote]
The frequency of those crimes is dwarfed by the frequency of spontaneous crimes like assaults and drug offenses. If someone calls you out and you punch them, you're not thinking of prison. If you light up a joint in your back yard, you're not thinking of prison.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;30019453]The frequency of those crimes is dwarfed by the frequency of spontaneous crimes like assaults[/QUOTE]
I was referring to non violent crimes though, like fraud or theft though.
[editline]24th May 2011[/editline]
This is becoming pointless arguing
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30019168]Yes you can. But because they're a first time offender it'll most likely mean in a rehabilitation based system, they won't be sent to prison.
Then that's a problem with rehabilitation.[/QUOTE]
Holy fucking shit the current system is solely punishment, not rehabilitation. In the US at least, which is the issue at hand.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.