Israel Creates 'No Man's Land' in Gaza, Shrinking Strip by 40%
124 replies, posted
So when Israel is killing Palestinians in huge numbers you expect the grieving relatives of the innocents to make the logical decision to kick the only group in the area fighting the people who killed their family out of the area?
As long as Gaza is blockaded and bombarded, Hamas will exist because extremism prospers in impoverished and besieged communities.
Also, if to take out a militant you have to kill a child and 4 civillian adults, you find another way. That sort of consistent collateral damage is just unacceptable.
[QUOTE=Seith;45531792]
they don't want peace... do i really have to go back to the past and mention constant wars, peace treats, cease fires that were never honored and [B]how much land we had given up for peace?[/B]
[/QUOTE]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/tM8rjCj.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i1.minus.com/ird9cHjgdLBS8.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.minus.com/iPAiIYPzmGQhr.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/QVqXn.png[/img]
[editline]29th July 2014[/editline]
whoops ignore the last one
israel has both grown and shrunk?
god damn make up your minds
Anyway, what I'm getting from all the talking heads and IDF spokespeople and politicians on the media since this campaign started is that Israel really REALLY wants nothing [U]less[/U] than to re-occupy the entire Gaza strip. Everyone is well aware that occupying a hostile population of 2 million people is not only incredibly bad internationally, but will also cost a fuckton of resources and lives, both us and theirs, for the foreseeable future.
It looks like this time the government has set itself relatively clear goals in this operation, though these goals keep evolving the longer the operation takes and the more Hamas escalates.
These I think were the original goals:
1. Reduce Hamas' offensive capabilities by attacking its launchers, weapon caches and other resources.
2. Force Hamas into a truce similar to the previous one, where they agree not to fire rockets on Israel for a while.
This could be done with mostly air strikes.
Once Hamas started using the tunnels (which Israel was aware of for several years now) to infiltrate Israel and fire long range rockets into Israel's center and north, the goals were expanded to:
3. Demolish all/most tunnels into Israel.
4. Critically hurt Hamas' missile launching capabilities.
This required a land incursion into northern Gaza to allow searching and destroying all launchers and tunnel entries on (and under) the ground.
The idea is still to pull out entirely once there's a reasonable (for Israel) truce, although now Israel is demanding complete demilitarization of the Gaza strip as one of the terms for the truce. I'm guessing if this actually happens it will also mean the embargo on Gaza will be lifted but I'm probably way too optimistic.
Anyway, this puts the IDF in an uncomfortable position of holding a static line inside Gaza while it's forces are working in the north to clear out the tunnels. This is very dangerous the longer it takes as Hamas forces in the rest of Gaza can regroup and more easily strike at them.
So what I think is happening now is that to keep the momentum going and not let Hamas recover the IDF is going to advance a little more into Gaza and clear more of it of militants and rocket launchers (and people and children and houses and everything, sadly).
I think (note that there's a lot of "I think" here because I don't really know) of devastation in the areas the IDF moves through because there's a lot of brutal fighting on the ground that is claiming the lives of IDF and Hamas soldiers on a daily basis. So this is probably more like Beirut, Kabul or any other dense urban are after intense warfare, and not just the army bulldozing buildings all over the place.
I don't know where it goes from here. Israel isn't really interested in toppling the Hamas because that would leave Gaza to either someone like ISIS or in anarchy, and neither would obviously be an improvement. What we prefer is probably a truce that will allow us to pull out, claim victory and not get fired on for a while. Something like the Egyptian and Saudi offer. If that fails to happen? Worse case would probably be re-occupation, but still with the intention of rooting out all the baddies then handing everything over to the Palestinian Authority. Certainly not annexation. Ever.
tl;dr
Israel doesn't want to reoccupy the Gaza strip. If it does it will be a limited operation probably. Israel definitely doesn't want to annex Gaza.
[QUOTE=download;45531440]Well it will only end with one or the other gone.
Israel is a democracy where people irrespective of their religion can vote while Gaza is controlled by Hamas a terrorist organisation who have stated repeatedly they wish to exterminate all Jews.
I know which one I would prefer to survive.[/QUOTE]
Keep in mind though, that the political situation in Gaza is so high strung due to long term occupation among other things.
[QUOTE=download;45531440]Well it will only end with one or the other gone.
Israel is a democracy where people irrespective of their religion can vote while Gaza is controlled by Hamas a terrorist organisation who have stated repeatedly they wish to exterminate all Jews.
I know which one I would prefer to survive.[/QUOTE]
And then there's right wing Israelis screaming "[URL="http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/21/israeli_peace_demo_violently_disrupted_dozens"]death to Arabs[/URL]". Stop trying to paint this as a simple, black and white issue.
[QUOTE=wraithcat;45532490]Keep in mind though, that the political situation in Gaza is so high strung due to long term occupation among other things.[/QUOTE]
I know it's far from perfect but it's a mite better than sitting around for the next century taking potshots at eachother.
[QUOTE=wraithcat;45532490]Keep in mind though, that the political situation in Gaza is so high strung due to long term occupation among other things.[/QUOTE]
Not exactly. Hamas is affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, which isn't occupied. And radical, militarized Islamic movements hold or are struggling for power all over the Middle East. See: Hezbollah in Lebanon, ISIS in Iraq and Syria, etc.
Regardless, here is one guy's [URL="http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/25/opinion/mideast-peace-omar-shaban/index.html?hpt=imi_t3"]incredibly depressing point of view[/URL] on how things got so bad here.
We are all assholes. But we weren't always like that. Maybe we can be better eventually.
[editline]29th July 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=WeekendWarrior;45532497]And then there's right wing Israelis screaming "[URL="http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/21/israeli_peace_demo_violently_disrupted_dozens"]death to Arabs[/URL]". Stop trying to paint this as a simple, black and white issue.[/QUOTE]
Every country has right wing lunatics marching around and yelling "death to [minorities]".
Yours included.
In a democracy, they're not the ones calling the shots.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;45532348][img]http://i.imgur.com/tM8rjCj.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i1.minus.com/ird9cHjgdLBS8.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.minus.com/iPAiIYPzmGQhr.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/QVqXn.png[/img]
[editline]29th July 2014[/editline]
whoops ignore the last one[/QUOTE]
Are you joking or actually serious I can't tell.
"Ancient Jewish Kingdom" and "Jewish Homeland" hah yeah right.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45531213]Fuck me, reading a few things being sent to the Israeli government, and supposedly this land takeover will effectively kill the Gaza economy, fuck over sanitation systems, and water supplies will either have to be rationed or everyone is pretty much screwed.[/QUOTE]
thats implying they had an economy, which they didn't
[QUOTE=ScumBunny;45532509]Every country has right wing lunatics marching around and yelling "death to [minorities]".
Yours included.
In a democracy, they're not the ones calling the shots.[/QUOTE]
Arabs in the Middle East as a whole aren't a minority though, preaching a such a spiteful, militaristic view is abhorrent (in any country I might add). And even though they aren't calling the shots, they can still influence public and military opinions and stir such sentiments. Either way, it isn't healthy.
[QUOTE=WeekendWarrior;45532639]Arabs in the Middle East as a whole aren't a minority though, preaching a such a spiteful, militaristic view is abhorrent (in any country I might add). And even though they aren't calling the shots, they can still influence public and military opinions and stir such sentiments. Either way, it isn't healthy.[/QUOTE]
No argument there.
[QUOTE=Aman;45532570]Are you joking or actually serious I can't tell.
"Ancient Jewish Kingdom" and "Jewish Homeland" hah yeah right.[/QUOTE]How the fuck can't you tell? I'm pretty sure the original file name for that last picture is "punchline.png" and if it isn't, it should be.
This isn't about Hamas anymore and Israel knows it. They just need them around to be a bone to pick.
Weather we deny it or not their main goal is the annexation of the Gaza strip and all of Palestine and genocide. Indescribable evil.
The worst part is that nothing will stop it. Politically speaking they're going to get away with it all. It's [i]remotely possible[/i] that in the future it will catch up to them but the fact it has managed to progress this far is disgusting.
[QUOTE=pentium;45534092]This isn't about Hamas anymore and Israel knows it. They just need them around to be a bone to pick.
Weather we deny it or not their main goal is the annexation of the Gaza strip and all of Palestine and genocide. Indescribable evil.
The worst part is that nothing will stop it. Politically speaking they're going to get away with it all. It's [i]remotely possible[/i] that in the future it will catch up to them but the fact it has managed to progress this far is disgusting.[/QUOTE]
Okay, serious question. Why do you think Israel wants to annex Gaza? Were talking about an 8 kilometer strip of real estate with 2 million guys that really hate our fucking guts.
What do you think we're gonna do with them? Literally execute 2 million people, raze the entire area and build beach side condos over it?
Give them all Israeli citizenship and open the border for them to move into Israel?
What?
[QUOTE=Zeke129;45531235]If Israel wants a buffer why don't they establish one on their side of the border using land that's actually theirs?[/QUOTE]
because they want all of the palestinians land and for them to all gtfo
Let me remind you
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/3lGwnEN.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Seith;45531777]stop victimizing the people of gaza.[/QUOTE]
they actually ARE victims of decade's long genocide though??
[QUOTE=cNova;45534453]Let me remind you
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/3lGwnEN.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
It was legal to use human shields by the IDF until the Israeli high court banned it in October 2005.
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;45532166]are you sure about that
i heard there had been plans to create israel for decades before hitler even got into power[/QUOTE]
Yeah and the fact millions got killed gave them a pretty big reason to be listened to
If that hadn't happened Israel would likely have never been a thing because the newfound UN wouldn't have greenlit the creation of an entire country on already inhabited ground.
Generally speaking Israel was a dumb fucking idea and ever since its creation it has done nothing but create trouble. It's not even about religion, you could remove that from the equation and the government would still be made of massive colonizing cunts.
[QUOTE=Bucketboy;45534987]It was legal to use human shields by the IDF until the Israeli high court banned it in October 2005.[/QUOTE]
oh well in that case it's totally fine
[QUOTE=evlbzltyr;45535195]oh well in that case it's totally fine[/QUOTE]
Not sure if i understand your response correctly but i was only pointing out that for those who keeps saying "Hamas using human shields" to show that the IDF is not the clean angel they think it is.
[QUOTE=Bucketboy;45535397]Not sure if i understand your response correctly but i was only pointing out that for those who keeps saying "Hamas using human shields" to show that the IDF is not the clean angel they think it is.[/QUOTE]
Of course the IDF actually functions under a working legal system where when something like that comes to light it can actually be debated by the highest authorities. That then OUTLAW IT.
Please tell me you can see how that's different than what the Palestinians are doing.
Why isn't the US or EU doing anything about this? Isn't this against treaties?
[QUOTE=ZyreHD;45536487]Why isn't the US or EU doing anything about this? Isn't this against treaties?[/QUOTE]
Because muh holocaust.
[QUOTE=GoldenDargon;45536497]Because muh holocaust.[/QUOTE]
Whoops, too late, buddy. We already had a "muh holocaust" joke here.
Make a new one.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;45535049]Yeah and the fact millions got killed gave them a pretty big reason to be listened to
If that hadn't happened Israel would likely have never been a thing because the newfound UN wouldn't have greenlit the creation of an entire country on already inhabited ground.
Generally speaking Israel was a dumb fucking idea and ever since its creation it has done nothing but create trouble. It's not even about religion, you could remove that from the equation and the government would still be made of massive colonizing cunts.[/QUOTE]
It's more likely, the current jewish independant russian Kraj would become more populated.
Israel is a terrorist. they come and not only take palestinian land but now kill them?
It's fucked up, this is a genocide. But the world is ignoring it, The last time Armenian Genocide was ignored and it ended up making the Holocaust.
This is what I mean: [url]http://www.armenian-genocide.org/hitler.html[/url]
Until now United States has not accepted the genocide, because it might hurt their trading with Turkey.\
Also as you can see because United States has not accepted the genocide, people are still quoting it.
Here is what I mean: [url]http://asbarez.com/125141/israeli-minister-to-erdogan-%E2%80%98what-about-the-armenian-genocide%E2%80%99/[/url]
Sorry for bad my bad english.
[QUOTE=GoldenDargon;45536497]Because muh holocaust.[/QUOTE]
how controversial
do you tell the kids at school wacky jokes about the holocaust?
[QUOTE=download;45532055]Where the hell do people keep getting this from? The Geneva Conventions only cover the treatment of POWs and Civilians in war.
[/QUOTE]
Not entirely true
[URL]http://www.icrc.org/ihl/INTRO/470[/URL]
It's not necessarily outlawing colonialism, but it does regard the struggle for defense against colonial invaders, armed foreign occupiers, or racist regimes, to be a valid international conflict and all militants taking part to be valid combatants subject to the rules of the Geneva conventions.
See, the problem is through is that Israel has only signed Protocol #III of the Geneva convention (not I & II), whereas countries like Canada, Australia, UK, etc have signed and agreed to uphold/ratified all three additional protocols and amendments. Israel has not actually ratified most of the Geneva protocols, only Protocol III which means they aren't allowed to shoot at/blow up Red Cross/Red Crystal/Red Cresent people; which they are doing anyways so they've already violated the only Protocol they've signed
As well as that, self determination and anti-colonialism is a cornerstone of the UN charter, but obviously unless other members states intend to do something about it and intervene, then nothing will stop Israel from doing those things.
[editline]29th July 2014[/editline]
TL;DR
Israel does not have the degree of humanitarian oversight that civilized nations have. Both the Republics of Congo, some of the most war torn places on earth, have signed and ratified significantly more of the Geneva convention that Israel has.
Israel has signed and ratified the same number of Geneva protocols as North Korea
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