Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny About It
120 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Tudd;52901357]Here is an article that caught my eye.
[url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/11/17/im-a-feminist-i-study-rape-culture-and-i-dont-want-al-franken-to-resign/[/url]
Well at least this person is open about their biass and hypocrisy (Sort of).
What a hell of a title though even for an opinion article.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for posting a random liberal's opinion piece, and for cutting out the actual bulk of the argument to make it look like straight cut hypocrisy.
[quote]I am a realist who recognizes that we get two viable choices, and Democrats are members of the only party positioned to pump the brakes on Republicans’ gleeful race toward Atwoodian dystopia.
...
It would feel good, momentarily, to see Franken resign and the Democratic governor of Minnesota, Mark Dayton, appoint a senator who has not (as far as we know) harmed women. If I believed for one second that Franken is the only Democrat in the Senate who has done something like this, with or without photographic evidence, I would see that as the best and most appropriate option. But in the world we actually live in, I’m betting that there will be more. And more after that. And they won’t all come from states with Democratic governors and a deep bench of progressive replacements. Some will, if ousted, have their successors chosen by Republicans.
In other words, if we set this precedent in the interest of demonstrating our party’s solidarity with harassed and abused women, we’re only going to drain the swamp of people who, however flawed, still regularly vote to protect women’s rights and freedoms. The legislative branch will remain chockablock with old, white Republican men who regard women chiefly as sex objects and unpaid housekeepers, and we’ll show them how staunchly Democrats oppose their misogynistic attitudes by handing them more power.
...
I am in no way suggesting that we decline to hold Franken accountable for his offenses — only that we think in terms of consequences that might actually improve women’s lives going forward.
...
Then, when (okay, if, but like I said: I’m a realist) another Democratic politician’s sexual misconduct is revealed, we can ask the same of him. Don’t just apologize and drop out of sight. Do penance. Live the values you campaigned on. Be a selfless champion for women’s rights.[/quote]
There's a lot more to the article than that, but I'd rather not make a huge post out of an opinion piece from someone who isn't even indirectly involved with the incident.
[QUOTE=Paramud;52901400]Thanks for posting a random liberal's opinion piece, and for cutting out the actual bulk of the argument to make it look like straight cut hypocrisy.
There's a lot more to the article than that, but I'd rather not make a huge post out of an opinion piece from someone who isn't even indirectly involved with the incident.[/QUOTE]
I mean it is just a long essay of supporting arguments on why her hypocritical stance is okay and she is willing to uphold Franken as long as it pushes the right politics.
I give credence for actually being honest about it, but none of what she says actually negates the clear hypocritical nature of her stance.
Though this piece from a Democratic Ohio Supreme Court Justice and Governor Candidate is also equally bizarre.
[t]https://www.dailydot.com/wp-content/uploads/1c6/ae/87bc264624239d0d-569x400.png[/t]
[quote]Ohio Supreme Court Justice Bill O’Neill publicly defended Sen. Al Franken against allegations he groped a woman while she was asleep — but then went too far.
In a now-deleted Facebook post Friday, O’Neill – who recently launched a Democratic campaign to run for governor of Ohio – detailed his own sexual history in defense of Franken and “all heterosexual males.”
[b]“Now that the dogs of war are calling for the head of Senator Al Franken I believe it is time to speak up on behalf of all heterosexual males. As a candidate for Governor let me save my opponents some research time,” he wrote.
“In the last fifty years I was sexually intimate with approximately 50 very attractive females. It ranged from a gorgeous blonde who was my first true love and we made passionate love in the hayloft of her parents barn and ended with a drop dead gorgeous red head from Cleveland,” he added.
“Now can we get back to discussing legalizing marijuana and opening the state hospital network to combat the opioid crisis. I am [so] disappointed by this national feeding frenzy about sexual indiscretions decades ago.”[/b]
Many viewed the post as remarkably tone-deaf in the national debate over sexual misconduct allegations and evidence against a series of powerful men in Hollywood, the media and in politics. [/quote]
[url]http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-pol-essential-washington-updates-democratic-candidate-for-ohio-governor-1510961077-htmlstory.html[/url]
[thumb]http://i.imgur.com/UxbaSsX.jpg[/thumb]
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Low effort post - Meme image" - icemaz))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Tudd;52901417]Though this piece from a Democratic Ohio Supreme Court Justice and Governor Candidate is also equally bizarre.[/QUOTE]
Do you have any other people on the left you'd like to bring up? Maybe we can make this into a megathread.
[QUOTE=Tudd;52901417]I mean it is just a long essay of supporting arguments on why her hypocritical stance is okay and she is willing to uphold Franken as long as it pushes the right politics.
[/QUOTE]
I guess she thinks one instance of sexual misconduct is better than skullfucking an entire generation.
[media]https://twitter.com/DipswitchDan/status/931413204504334336[/media]
[media]https://twitter.com/DipswitchDan/status/931415954218717184[/media]
[media]https://twitter.com/DipswitchDan/status/931606075090128896[/media]
The EXIF data seems to point at this being a very deliberate hit piece [I]and[/I] the EXIF's facts don't line up with the accuser's story. :thinking:
[media]https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/931621949213761541[/media]
I guess Al Franken should have denied it then?
[QUOTE=Tudd;52901417]I mean it is just a long essay of supporting arguments on why her hypocritical stance is okay and she is willing to uphold Franken as long as it pushes the right politics.
I give credence for actually being honest about it, but none of what she says actually negates the clear hypocritical nature of her stance.[/QUOTE]
It's not hypocritical if you read her argument. The "right politics" are the inherently anti-feminist agenda that the Republicans push. Her argument is that the net gain of someone who otherwise supports feminist politics and opposes the rape culture being allowed to stay in a position of authority outweighs the possibility of losing the seat to a political party who might do more damage across a broader plane. I myself don't necessarily agree (rape culture is a very [I]problematic [/I]term) but it's not hypocritical, it's pragmatic. And she doesn't "uphold" Franken. She thinks he messed up and should seek penance.
[QUOTE=Tudd;52901417]Though this piece from a Democratic Ohio Supreme Court Justice and Governor Candidate is also equally bizarre.
[/QUOTE]
It's like a toned down version of the Hollywood Access tapes and that was just locker room talk. I don't see the problem here tbh. The word "bizarre" right now should only apply to Trump's tweet posted above.
[QUOTE=Tudd;52901357]Here is an article that caught my eye.
[url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/11/17/im-a-feminist-i-study-rape-culture-and-i-dont-want-al-franken-to-resign/[/url]
Well at least this person is open about their bias and hypocrisy (Sort of).
What a hell of a title though even for an opinion article.[/QUOTE]
How desperate can you get
The accusations now look flimsier than ever, Trump's response was creepy and embarrassing, and his hypocrisy as a lover of sexual assault emerges yet again
But, uh, look at this random lefty I found! Aren't they weird??
[QUOTE=Wealth + Taste;52896373]Fuck he really seemed like a nice and genuine guy
I don't get it, is sexual harassment a really common thing for guys to do? It seems a lot more common than I initially believed. I've never had any such temptation, it's pretty disgusting to take advantage of someone like that especially in a sexual way.[/QUOTE]
I mean a lot of guys can't make it 5 minutes around a woman without making a sexual innuendo and a lot of the "joking" shit they do can very quickly become sexual harassment
[url=http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html]And then there was two[/url]
[QUOTE=Lambeth;52908428][url=http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html]And then there was two[/url][/QUOTE]
So did they take the photo? You'd think it'd be plastered all over the internet if they took it.
This accusation is just a hit job. Republicans are just doing what they always do, deflect and attack. They depend on Democrats holding their politicians to a standard, because it seems they don't. If they did, Moore wouldn't have a chance.
[media]https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/931357870024687616[/media]
You misspelled Frankenstein you dumb fuck
Honestly, that's the smallest problem with that tweet.
[QUOTE=Speedhax;52909129]This accusation is just a hit job. Republicans are just doing what they always do, deflect and attack. They depend on Democrats holding their politicians to a standard, because it seems they don't. If they did, Moore wouldn't have a chance.[/QUOTE]
That was obvious from the start.
I think these claims have legitimacy and Franken should resign, personally.
I haven't seen a substantive reason for how they are false.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;52911124]I haven't seen a substantive reason for how they are false.[/QUOTE]
I posted a tweet thread on this very page that demonstrates how the photo, and other contemporary photos, do not line up with her story as she's given it. She supposedly had never met him before but there are photos of them next to each other at a past USO event. She claims the photo was taken on Christmas Eve; it was taken three days prior. She claimed she got on the plane and fell asleep in her flak vest; the photo wasn't taken that day so that's already suspect. The EXIF reveals that the photo was last modified the day Franken was elected as a senator. [del]The photographer who took the photo claims that she was pretending to be asleep and the photo was staged goofing around with her consent.[/del] [I](tricked by fake news)[/I]
The above are discrepancies in her story, but this is not a smoking gun that proves she's lying. Given the amount of time that has passed, it is plausible that these details could become blurred and slightly indistinct in her memory.
I don't know who's right, but I hope justice is served. If she's lying, she can go to hell. If she isn't lying, Al can go to hell.
As for the other accuser, I have no information on those allegations either way.
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;52911135]The photographer who took the photo claims that she was pretending to be asleep and the photo was staged goofing around with her consenT.[/QUOTE]
That part is a false rumor spread by twitter.
[url]https://www.snopes.com/photographer-said-franken-image-was-staged/[/url]
That said, I'm still super suspicious of these allegation, as I am any time one person makes difficult to prove allegations that are politically convenient to them.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;52911124]I haven't seen a substantive reason for how they are false.[/QUOTE]
There's not a whole lot to debunk. There's a photo of him very obviously not groping her, and now there's a second accuser who apparently can't remember whether she voted for the man who groped her or not and also coincidentally voted for Trump lol
[QUOTE=Raidyr;52902257]It's not hypocritical if you read her argument. The "right politics" are the inherently anti-feminist agenda that the Republicans push. Her argument is that the net gain of someone who otherwise supports feminist politics and opposes the rape culture being allowed to stay in a position of authority outweighs the possibility of losing the seat to a political party who might do more damage across a broader plane. I myself don't necessarily agree (rape culture is a very [I]problematic [/I]term) but it's not hypocritical, it's pragmatic. And she doesn't "uphold" Franken. She thinks he messed up and should seek penance. [/quote]
I don't disagree with it being a pragmatic choice, but if you deeply value men not sexually assaulting women against their will, this is still a hypocritical stance. It can be hypocritical and pragmatic.
[quote]
It's like a toned down version of the Hollywood Access tapes and that was just locker room talk. I don't see the problem here tbh. The word "bizarre" right now should only apply to Trump's tweet posted above.[/QUOTE]
Well it is interesting to know you have a standard that isn't all or nothing now.
Though if you don't think a supreme court justice bragging about how many women they slept with as a defense for Al Franken can be called bizarre, then you are bizarre.
[quote][QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;52911421]I will say, it's making me a bit uneasy that many find it so easy to believe that these accusations are false. We've [I]just[/I] been through numerous cases where the accusations haven't been scrutinized, and a lot of people seem to feel that being skeptical is a dangerous attitude that causes victims of sexual abuse to refrain from speaking up. Some of the people on the right are saying that the accusations against Roy Moore are false, and that his writing in that yearbook doesn't match his handwriting or vernacular. I just can't help feeling uneasy that the two sides are essentially doing the same thing.[/QUOTE]
[/quote]
I have to agree with this. I know people don't like what I posted in here specifically, but it is mostly because I find such defenses as pathetic partisan trash, even similar ones for Roy Moore.
And I am willing to extend a time window for both candidates before I make a final judgement on either case. Especially with how much surrounding details and context that needs to be confirmed.
If anyone is wondering though before suggesting I am leaning one side; I don't think Roy Moore's case/defense is looking good at all, but I would hope we also still seek investigation into it more with things like verifying this yearbook thing.
[QUOTE=TraderRager;52911472]
I feel like anyone who tries to compare those denying Roy Moore's eight accuser (and his history of questionable behavior to the point of being banned from his hometown mall for harassing young women) to the single Fox pundit with a vested interest in sabotaging democrats who who can't even get the dates in her story to match the evidence is being disingenuous when they claim it's "the same thing".[/QUOTE]
And before someone goes at length on this point presented; I think Roy Moore's case/allegations are far worse in comparison to Al Franken and not the same thing.
I will say, it's making me a bit uneasy that many find it so easy to believe that these accusations are false. We've [I]just[/I] been through numerous cases where the accusations haven't been scrutinized, and a lot of people seem to feel that being skeptical is a dangerous attitude that causes victims of sexual abuse to refrain from speaking up. Some of the people on the right are saying that the accusations against Roy Moore are false, and that his writing in that yearbook doesn't match his handwriting or vernacular. I just can't help feeling uneasy that the two sides are essentially doing the same thing.
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;52911421]I will say, it's making me a bit uneasy that many find it so easy to believe that these accusations are false. We've [I]just[/I] been through numerous cases where the accusations haven't been scrutinized, and a lot of people seem to feel that being skeptical is a dangerous attitude that causes victims of sexual abuse to refrain from speaking up. Some of the people on the right are saying that the accusations against Roy Moore are false, and that his writing in that yearbook doesn't match his handwriting or vernacular. I just can't help feeling uneasy that the two sides are essentially doing the same thing.[/QUOTE]
You should maintain a healthy skepticism towards all claims, sexual harassment or not.
I feel like anyone who tries to compare those denying Roy Moore's eight accuser (and his history of questionable behavior to the point of being banned from his hometown mall for harassing young women) to those who are distrustful of a single Fox pundit (with a vested interest in sabotaging democrats who can't even get the dates in her story to match the evidence) is being disingenuous when they claim it's "the same thing".
I can't keep up with sexual allegation news, but [url]http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/361299-huffington-denies-franken-behaved-inappropriately-in-response-to-new-photos[/url]
I think theres an obvious coordinated attack going on here towards Al, not saying all will be false, but the right seems to be trying to weaponize this recent movement.
[QUOTE=Tudd;52911419]I don't disagree with it being a pragmatic choice, but if you deeply value men not sexually assaulting women against their will, this is still a hypocritical stance. It can be hypocritical and pragmatic.[/QUOTE]
It's not hypocritical if you deeply believe that Franken resigning would be worse for women than him remaining a senator. Read this
[QUOTE]
It would feel good, momentarily, to see Franken resign and the Democratic governor of Minnesota, Mark Dayton, appoint a senator who has not (as far as we know) harmed women. If I believed for one second that Franken is the only Democrat in the Senate who has done something like this, with or without photographic evidence, I would see that as the best and most appropriate option. But in the world we [I]actually[/I] live in, I’m betting that there will be more. And more after that. And they won’t all come from states with Democratic governors and a deep bench of progressive replacements. Some will, if ousted, have their successors chosen by Republicans.[/QUOTE]
then there is the part about him [QUOTE]
Then, when (okay, [I]if[/I], but like I said: I’m a realist) another Democratic politician’s sexual misconduct is revealed, we can ask the same of him. Don’t just apologize and drop out of sight. Do penance. Live the values you campaigned on. Be a selfless champion for women’s rights.[/QUOTE]
and also this
[QUOTE]
There are, of course, limits to this formula. If a Democratic official is credibly accused of a violent assault, or if their alleged abuses relate to or involve their work in politics, we should demand their resignation and encourage a full investigation. As I write this, only one woman has alleged that Franken assaulted her; if her story emboldens others to tell theirs, and the senator is revealed to be a serial predator, then I wouldn’t want him in a position of power for one more minute. And if by some miracle, Republicans actually [I]do[/I] start holding their own accountable for sexual misconduct — instead of arguing about whether a grown man who preys on teenagers is fit for office — then most of my argument dissolves. In that happy circumstance, I would gladly throw all the sexist jerks in the sea, regardless of party affiliation.[/QUOTE]
basically if you read the entire article other than the parts that you strategically cut you will see that she plainly isn't behaving like a hypocrite. If there was evidence of him doing something wrong, she says he should resign. If the Republicans weren't the party that they are, she says he should resign. This is the difference between pragmatism and hypocrisy.
[QUOTE=Tudd;52911419]Well it is interesting to know you have a standard that isn't all or nothing now.
Though if you don't think a supreme court justice bragging about how many women they slept with as a defense for Al Franken can be called bizarre, then you are bizarre.[/QUOTE]
I was being sarcastic. The Hollywood Access tape was fucking grotesque, and I think its quite hypocritical to take shots at an Ohio Supreme Court Justice of all people for talking about his consensual exploits while having nothing to say about the man who bragged about committing sexual assault himself. My standards are fine.
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;52911421]I will say, it's making me a bit uneasy that many find it so easy to believe that these accusations are false. We've [I]just[/I] been through numerous cases where the accusations haven't been scrutinized, and a lot of people seem to feel that being skeptical is a dangerous attitude that causes victims of sexual abuse to refrain from speaking up. Some of the people on the right are saying that the accusations against Roy Moore are false, and that his writing in that yearbook doesn't match his handwriting or vernacular. I just can't help feeling uneasy that the two sides are essentially doing the same thing.[/QUOTE]
As a general rule I tend to treat unproven accusations as such, unproven. That said there is compelling evidence to suggest that at least some of the claims against Franken are untrue. The comparison to Roy Moore doesn't hold up under the lightest bit of scrutiny either; Franken has apologized and submitted himself to investigation by the ethics community. Roy Moore categorically rejects the numerous accusations against him and rants on Twitter about them. The two sides aren't doing the same thing, one is transparently a lot worse than the other, even excluding the circumstantial evidence around Moore.
[QUOTE=Tudd;52911419]
I have to agree with this. I know people don't like what I posted in here specifically, but it is mostly because I find such defenses as pathetic partisan trash, even similar ones for Roy Moore.[/quote]
I hate this false equivalency bullshit that people use. The comparing the allegations against Moore and Franken is as fair as comparing Leukemia to the Common Cold.
[QUOTE=Tudd;52911419]And before someone goes at length on this point presented; I think Roy Moore's case/allegations are far worse in comparison to Al Franken and not the same thing.[/QUOTE]
Except you just claimed that is was the same thing three sentences prior.
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;52911421]I will say, it's making me a bit uneasy that many find it so easy to believe that these accusations are false.[/QUOTE]
The same should be said for finding it so easy to believe that they're true.
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;52911421]I will say, it's making me a bit uneasy that many find it so easy to believe that these accusations are false. We've [I]just[/I] been through numerous cases where the accusations haven't been scrutinized, and a lot of people seem to feel that being skeptical is a dangerous attitude that causes victims of sexual abuse to refrain from speaking up. Some of the people on the right are saying that the accusations against Roy Moore are false, and that his writing in that yearbook doesn't match his handwriting or vernacular. I just can't help feeling uneasy that the two sides are essentially doing the same thing.[/QUOTE]
I'm aware of the societal biases against alleged victims, I'm aware of the different attitudes regarding men and women and how needlessly antagonistic they can get, and I'm aware that we need to keep from making impulsive judgements in touchy cases like this
I'm also aware of the political context surrounding this. I'm aware that Tweeden is a regular on Sean Hannity. I'm aware that she's no stranger to right-wing hit jobs, as when Shirley Sherrod was fired due to selective editing of an NAACP address by none other than Andrew Breitbart, Leann Tweeden was there, on Hannity's show, to reinforce the fake Breitbart narrative. And yes, I have it in mind that this is a horribly distressing position for her to be in if she's telling the truth, and just happens to be a conservative. I hope everyone else who doubts her story realizes this too.
I can't conclusively say that Al Franken is innocent, and I can't conclusively say that Tweeden is a liar. But that's what I believe, with full knowledge that I'm making this judgement without all of the evidence, and outside of a court of law. For those reasons, it's not a very good judgement, it's open to change, and I won't be parading it around as fact. But I think it's a fair one to make given what we've seen.
It's possible that Tweeden isn't lying, but was shown the photoshopped version of that picture which influenced her memories of the rehearsal. Franken might have done something to make her uncomfortable in that rehearsal, the memory of which could have been exaggerated over time.
The worst thing though would be to just ignore her accusation, in case her account was accurate. Franken calling for an investigation seems like the best move to account for either case.
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