Washington gets explicit: its 'war on terror' is permanent
65 replies, posted
[QUOTE=lifehole;40739699]When was the last time a first world country had a full on revolution without it being some 2nd world full of superdense apartment buildings and starving people.[/QUOTE]
To be honest, I think your criteria are a bit too strict on this; there aren't that many nations in the world that fit the description of an American analogue, so there isn't much history to go on here. The best example I can think of is the 1986 revolution in the Philippines.
It isn't clear what you mean by "full on revolution," either. Do you mean a violent revolution or simply one that replaces the government completely? Because the Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia is a good example of what a first-world revolution would look like, and I don't think it should be ruled out just because Czechoslovakia was a second-world nation.
There was also the French protests in 1968 that shut down the economy across the entire nation of France and threatened revolution. The government averted it by ordering immediate elections, but it stands as another example of a first-world nation in revolutionary turbulence.
However, even though I believe an American reform movement could eventually cause a revolution, I actually believe that it won't happen until we have an interim period of dysfunction. I really doubt that America will suddenly say, "wow, we've become a police state; we need to revolt." I think it's far more likely that America will say "wow, federal aid and public services have stopped, and there's no sign of them being turned back on. We need to get our shit together."
This is my prediction: sometime in the next two decades congress will become so arrogant and partisan that it will stop meeting- one party will walk out in protest one day, and we'll all be watching on CNN to see if negotiations will be able to bring them back. And then it will happen again a few weeks later, and then maybe they won't come back. In the meantime, the president begins to run the government through executive order, and members of congress get arrested. People start demonstrating everywhere, states start picking sides, and the two parties each propose a plan to form a new constitution. Demonstrations happen across the nation, the less-popular party is ousted from most battleground states, and a new government takes shape. Finally, the opposition party either decides to rejoin the republic or tries to stay independent.
[QUOTE=lifehole;40739699]Revolution is very, very far away. People are always mad at their government for one reason or another, but revolution doesn't happen from pure governmental hate. It happens from terrible living conditions, starvation, or full on ground war.
When was the last time a first world country had a full on revolution without it being some 2nd world full of superdense apartment buildings and starving people.[/QUOTE]
Wasn't the last revolution we had like, way long ago too :v:
We've always been at war with Eastasia.
[QUOTE=WeekendWarrior;40740459]America already has with the PATRIOT act.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention the NDAA Obama signed that made it legal to indefinitely detain anyone without a trial, including their own citizens.
[QUOTE=Moustacheman;40741331]War hasn't been profitable in years, lad. It's just dream, a hopeless war in search of an impossible peace.
We've lost this war, we just don't want to admit it.[/QUOTE]
It's not profitable for countries, but it's definitely profitable for the defence contractors that give money to politicians ...
Thread music:
[video=youtube;7w3bgRdlanI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w3bgRdlanI[/video]
Ontopic, I don't really understand what a "war on terror" is supposed to help with in the first place.
You can't fight ideas with bullets, as it's not like you can just wipe out everyone supporting an ideology, no matter how "wrong" it may be.
And going into a country like that isn't going to help your image. Shouldn't they have learned that by now?
Thanks a fucking lot Bush, for getting us into this fucking mess.
a war on any word is a guaranteed loss
how can nobody in washington see this
[QUOTE=Moustacheman;40741331]War hasn't been profitable in years, lad.[/QUOTE]
I wonder how much money the dudes who make IED-resistant trucks made prior to the invasion of Iraq/Afghanistan and today.
Probably a whole lot. Like approximately one shitzillion dollars.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;40742876]I wonder how much money the dudes who make IED-resistant trucks made prior to the invasion of Iraq/Afghanistan and today.
Probably a whole lot. Like approximately one shitzillion dollars.[/QUOTE]
The employees make six figures, travel a lot, and a number of them do cocaine and other drugs.
I know because I live in DC where they're all located.
Sounds fucking scary.
Last thing I want is a predator missile flying pass my house to take down a 'terrorist' 'suspect'.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;40742876]I wonder how much money the dudes who make IED-resistant trucks made prior to the invasion of Iraq/Afghanistan and today.
Probably a whole lot. Like approximately one shitzillion dollars.[/QUOTE]
I know my dad makes atleast 5 figure numbers just for co owning a small company that works with the military.
[QUOTE=uber.;40737919]So a computer located in the US decides if it is adequate to murder a person outside of the US using a drone flying above foreign territory? Because if civilians get killed by a machine there is noone to blame, right? Good job, home of the brave. [/QUOTE]
Uh, what? Using what is effectively a computerized flowchart to structure and codify the decision-making process is a lot better than having one person order an airstrike because he thinks it's justified.
[QUOTE=WeekendWarrior;40739844]And those in power don't seem to realise that the sheer presence of the Western militaries in the Middle East is what spurs this on?[/QUOTE]
It's not the presence they don't like, it's the way the military operates. In the early days of the war there were a lot of people over there who were happy to see US troops, that soured pretty quickly.
The US hasn't fought a justifiable war since WWII, the only justifiable war is total war. By continuing the war on terrorism the US only breeds more terrorists. They hate us for a reason, but no one is asking why, we're just told they're the enemy and they hate us, which is like asking someone why they're being arrested and the officer answering for them.
All this bullshit surrounding Iran and North Korea, what a threat they are to us? That's what you call the pot calling the kettle black. We don't need to fight either of them, if they want to nuke us that is their mistake and they only need to look up December 7th 1941 to find out why, I seriously doubt they are so stupid as to bring the entire nation to a terrible resolve against them.
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;40739057]This is [I]Metal Gear[/I] we're talking about. Yeah some games may make valid points, but Hideo's writing makes sense only to the insane.[/QUOTE]
his writing isn't necessarily insane, it's just what happens when a game goes aggressively deconstructionist but doesn't get any less retarded
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;40737950]fuck this
war is an abomination on humanity and all this does is make it easier to justify murder[/QUOTE]
That's really black and white, if there were no wars ever then countries like the US wouldn't exist, evil dictators would be free to fuck around with their populace, and more.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;40737950]fuck this
war is an abomination on humanity and all this does is make it easier to justify murder[/QUOTE]
I'm sure you'll be really cool when you get into college and start majoring in Philosophy.
War is necessary. You want to dream about world peace, where everyone gets along and no one is treated unfairly? Fine. A utopia where no one gets hurt? You can dream about it all you want. But if you think it's even remotely possible, you're dead wrong. Conflict drives the world forward. It's necessary for progress, however regrettable it is. When humanity stops fighting, humanity will stop progressing.
We have always been at war with Eastasia.
Another step marching triumphantly into the future, lets not ever do anything about it.....
Oh wait, that was sarcasm.
Regardless, I wonder how much longer it will take until we/you/me/someone does something about it.
Sadly, I doubt we will ever be outraged enough to overcome today's apathy to the point of action.
[editline]22nd May 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=LoganIsAwesome;40743190]Sounds fucking scary.
Last thing I want is a predator missile flying pass my house to take down a 'terrorist' 'suspect'.[/QUOTE]
What you gonna do about it?
[QUOTE=Paramud;40748672]I'm sure you'll be really cool when you get into college and start majoring in Philosophy.
War is necessary. You want to dream about world peace, where everyone gets along and no one is treated unfairly? Fine. A utopia where no one gets hurt? You can dream about it all you want. But if you think it's even remotely possible, you're dead wrong. Conflict drives the world forward. It's necessary for progress, however regrettable it is. When humanity stops fighting, humanity will stop progressing.[/QUOTE]
Conflict, at least in the international scale, is a result of a breakdown in diplomacy stemming from the inability to empathise and involve oneself in meaningful and constructive dialogue. Your notion as war as the driving force of humanity is abhorrent, technology has many times progressed without warfare only to be retroactively applied to war. Indeed, war as progressing humanity is an idea and tenet of fascist ideology, a method used to cleanse the world of undesirable people and ideologies allowing the 'achievement' of totality. You yourself are buying into a utopian fascist view of the world and progress.
[QUOTE=Zarjk;40743796]I know my dad makes atleast 5 figure numbers just for co owning a small company that works with the military.[/QUOTE]
Bid wars don't even happen most of the time. Its a bit disturbing.
[QUOTE=Coffee;40739316]A revolution would get them out of office.[/QUOTE]
That would never happen in the US political climate. There's far too much ignorance and forced arbitrary bipartisanship, everybody hates the current status of US government, but they all hate it for different reasons, then at the same time you've got these bipartisans trying to undermine the rights of other political castes so they just wind up hating each other instead of ushering in any actual change in management.
A permanent war against the vaguest of enemies...
The trumpet-call had let loose an enormous volume of noise. Already an excited voice was gabbling from the telescreen, but even as it started it was almost drowned by a roar of cheering from outside. The news had run round the streets like magic. He could hear just enough of what was issuing from the telescreen to realize that it had all happened, as he had foreseen; a vast seaborne armada had secretly assembled a sudden blow in the enemy's rear, the white arrow tearing across the tail of the black. Fragments of triumphant phrases pushed themselves through the din: 'Vast strategic manoeuvre -- perfect co-ordination -- utter rout -- half a million prisoners -- complete demoralization -- control of the whole of Africa -- bring the war within measurable distance of its end victory -- greatest victory in human history -- victory, victory, victory!'
What's that from? 1984?
[QUOTE=Paramud;40748672]I'm sure you'll be really cool when you get into college and start majoring in Philosophy.
War is necessary. You want to dream about world peace, where everyone gets along and no one is treated unfairly? Fine. A utopia where no one gets hurt? You can dream about it all you want. But if you think it's even remotely possible, you're dead wrong. Conflict drives the world forward. It's necessary for progress, however regrettable it is. When humanity stops fighting, humanity will stop progressing.[/QUOTE]
i don't really see how human nature is even vaguely relevant, or ever will be. the only thing all humans have in common is spending far too much fucking time thinking about what they are, and nowhere near enough time thinking about what they should be. you can justify this dumb bullshit all you want, but at the end of the day you're encouraging conflict and destruction because you've got the vague idea that it's what we're supposed to be doing and you're bereft of any better ones.
well pal, the only reason humanity acts like an awful, sociopathic blight upon this Earth is because dumb bastards like you always encourage it when you're asked to change for the better. "oh, conflict is in our nature! we're an inherently violent species! utopia is impossible! blah blah evil dumb retarded shit blah!"
Exactly, Cone.
The attitude that war, and conflict, and competition even, is "human nature" (a term usually thrown around more by ultra "libertarians") and necessary for progression continues to self-perpetuate so long as it remains accepted or is met with apathy.
We collectively as humanity have a duty to deconstruct and shit on this horrible idea.
I think we should all try to propagate what we see as more realistic and desirable theories even just amongst those we come across in our day to day lives. We may not all agree but that's the beauty of it really and it sure beats general apathy.
I don't think there is such thing as a final goal or solution - that seems unrealistic to me - we just need to find a way to keep moving forward, including as many people as possible, and to defeat apathy and the passive acceptance and glorification of violence, conflict, and competition.
[QUOTE=Paramud;40748672]I'm sure you'll be really cool when you get into college and start majoring in Philosophy.
War is necessary. You want to dream about world peace, where everyone gets along and no one is treated unfairly? Fine. A utopia where no one gets hurt? You can dream about it all you want. But if you think it's even remotely possible, you're dead wrong. Conflict drives the world forward. It's necessary for progress, however regrettable it is. When humanity stops fighting, humanity will stop progressing.[/QUOTE]
I am in college and I read philosophy independently. I do not think that war is a necessary part of humanity, it's merely a blight on early human society that could easily not exist in the future. there are greater ways to fight than killing, we are more intelligent than fighting by the rule of death.
[editline]23rd May 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;40749304]Conflict, at least in the international scale, is a result of a breakdown in diplomacy stemming from the inability to empathise and involve oneself in meaningful and constructive dialogue. Your notion as war as the driving force of humanity is abhorrent, technology has many times progressed without warfare only to be retroactively applied to war. Indeed, war as progressing humanity is an idea and tenet of fascist ideology, a method used to cleanse the world of undesirable people and ideologies allowing the 'achievement' of totality. You yourself are buying into a utopian fascist view of the world and progress.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely. The worldview that war is necessary is a closed minded one. The glorifying of war as beneficial in any way is regressive to society and undoubtedly bad for one's psyche.
Do not limit yourself the the ideologies pressed upon you, realize that the collective intelligence of humanity can surpass the wars we drive in our infancy.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16K6m3Ua2nw[/media]
I think alot of what needs to be said about america in this thread can be summed up in this video
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;40750940][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16K6m3Ua2nw[/media]
I think alot of what needs to be said about america in this thread can be summed up in this video[/QUOTE]
The problem that I have with this video is that it glorifies what the US used to be and I do not think that we have substantially changed. There are many faults in the US's history. It has never been an exceptionally good country, but regardless I do not look to the past for guidance. I look the future, as that has the potential to hold anything that we want to push for. We should only look to the past to understand what was good and bad. Glorifying the past I think leads to the stiffing of growth.
[QUOTE=Coffee;40739316]A revolution would get them out of office.[/QUOTE]
Have fun fighting the US military.
[QUOTE=Doom64hunter;40742649]Thread music:
[video=youtube;7w3bgRdlanI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w3bgRdlanI[/video]
Ontopic, I don't really understand what a "war on terror" is supposed to help with in the first place.
You can't fight ideas with bullets, as it's not like you can just wipe out everyone supporting an ideology, no matter how "wrong" it may be.
And going into a country like that isn't going to help your image. Shouldn't they have learned that by now?[/QUOTE]
It must be Cognitive Dissonance by now, they've pumped so much money and manpower into it that they refuse to believe they were wrong.
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