• House passes bill to defund Obongocare
    124 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Ekalektik_1;42255549]I've never really been clear on this. Is Obama's healthcare plan really something that'll "destroy the middle class" and "make it impossible to get the coverage [I]you[/I] deserve"? Because that's all I've been hearing, and people who I ask who support it only defend it with stuff like "Oh, don't listen to those attack ads, it's exactly what we need!" without ever going into specifics.[/QUOTE] Obamacare is a largely insubstantial bill of which the only real significant parts are it doesn't allow insurance companies to discriminate coverage based on pre-existing conditions or sex anymore and it has a largely unenforceable personal health insurance mandate. There's also some federal subsudies for low-income individuals. It's super overblown by both sides. It affects me a lot actually as I have a diabetic brother and an uninsured low-income girlfriend. For most people though it probably won't affect you in the slightest. [editline]20th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Zeke129;42255790]Where was the outrage there[/QUOTE] blue state
They can pass a bill to defund this, yet defunding governmental bodies that need defunding(NSA, TSA, etc) isn't even brought up? More proof congress is worthless.
[QUOTE=Xakoro;42255715]Why don't we have extensively tough anti price-fixing laws?[/QUOTE] Doesn't stop companies from making deals under the table. Especially since expensive lawyers can reduce the punishment to a mere slap on the wrist.
[QUOTE='[sluggo];42255405']Agree with you there. The problem with a public system of health care is the population of the US. It could work in most of Europe, it could work in Canada, It would cost exponentially more the US.[/QUOTE] You know there are more people in Europe than in the US, right?
They've done this a thousand times but the difference here is that we're in one of those 'the government/country is fucked unless we pass a budget law within a week' periods, and the GOP is saying they won't do it unless they can scrap Obamacare
One can theoretically pay for public healthcare no matter what country you are in. The United States has more people but can also tax more people in order to take care of those people.
[QUOTE=Van-man;42257437]Doesn't stop companies from making deals under the table. Especially since expensive lawyers can reduce the punishment to a mere slap on the wrist.[/QUOTE] Why don't more people object to the frequency of slaps on the wrist?
[QUOTE=Xakoro;42257558]Why don't more people object to the frequency of slaps on the wrist?[/QUOTE] Companies' PR crews. And that the CEO of those companies are good buddies with the CEO's of media corporations.
And there isn't a solution besides violent revolution or waiting for transhumanism obsoleting capitalism?
Why doesn't the Senate and House cut the shit and think of something to help people rather than argue over who's idea is worse?
[QUOTE=Megafan;42257461]You know there are more people in Europe than in the US, right?[/QUOTE] European countries managed separately. Sweden could handle socialized medicine financially, we couldn't.
[QUOTE='[sluggo];42257934']European countries managed separately. Sweden could handle socialized medicine financially, we couldn't.[/QUOTE] But the US spends more money per capita on healthcare than any other country. It seems like if you adopted a similar system you'd [i]save[/i] money
I am not sure I understand why not. Assuming a country is rich, like the United States, a higher number of people means a larger pool to tax from, to then spend on taking care of those people. With every person you add to the population, you get another person you can get taxes from. In practice one would have to tax the rich much more and leave out the poorest in the USA because of the very high rate of inequality, but it is still possible to pay for healthcare. So if you have a rich (even if unequal) country, "there are too many people" is not an excuse for not having a public system As Zeke says (and The Economist agrees), we may even save money from public healthcare.
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;42255829]Obamacare is a largely insubstantial bill of which the only real significant parts are it doesn't allow insurance companies to discriminate coverage based on pre-existing conditions or sex anymore and it has a [B]largely unenforceable personal health insurance mandate.[/B] There's also some federal subsudies for low-income individuals. It's super overblown by both sides. It affects me a lot actually as I have a diabetic brother and an uninsured low-income girlfriend. For most people though it probably won't affect you in the slightest.[/QUOTE] This is the biggest reason I hate the Affordable Care Act, it forces everyone in the country to pay extortion to private corporations. Besides that, it's just a clusterfuck of random shit put together at the last minute. And the individual mandate is entirely enforceable, the government just tacks on a huge bill to your income tax return at the end of the year if you can't prove you have an "acceptable insurance policy." The law says that health insurance must now provide all of these services for free, but it really isn't free. The insurance companies just jack up the premiums to cover the extra things they're required to do. When the Affordable Care Act was passed, my premiums went up 100%, along with a pile of letters from my insurance company explaining why they had to jack it up to cover this laundry list of new coverage that I don't even need. [QUOTE=person11;42258005]I am not sure I understand why not. Assuming a country is rich, like the United States, a higher number of people means a larger pool to tax from, to then spend on taking care of those people. [B]With every person you add to the population, you get another person you can get taxes from.[/B] In practice one would have to tax the rich much more and leave out the poorest in the USA because of the very high rate of inequality, but it is still possible to pay for healthcare.[/QUOTE] Uh, what? Babies and children don't pay income tax. Mentally disabled people generally don't pay income tax because they don't make money. Retired and really old people pay little or no income tax. So we just took out basically 2/3 of the population. And it grows more disproportionate every day due to more and more people from the baby boomer generation retiring and falling out of the working pool. 1/3 of the population paying for the entire populations health care doesn't really work.
[QUOTE='[sluggo];42257934']European countries managed separately. Sweden could handle socialized medicine financially, we couldn't.[/QUOTE] It's pretty damned clear that the reasons for America not having universal healthcare are unrelated to finances
[QUOTE='[sluggo];42257934']European countries managed separately. Sweden could handle socialized medicine financially, we couldn't.[/QUOTE] Is there some reason the actual managerial tasks couldn't be left to state governments while being forced to uphold a minimum standard of quality? That sounds like 'separate management' to me.
[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;42258148] Uh, what? Babies and children don't pay income tax. Mentally disabled people generally don't pay income tax because they don't make money. Retired and really old people pay little or no income tax. So we just took out basically 2/3 of the population. And it grows more disproportionate every day due to more and more people from the baby boomer generation retiring and falling out of the working pool. 1/3 of the population paying for the entire populations health care doesn't really work.[/QUOTE] You make up for that by taxing the rich more. There is no problem you can raise with "too many people". It's not an excuse.
If anyone has a moment can you summarize Obama care? I really don't know if it's good or bad. My whole family pretty much says it's terrible but can't fully explain why.
[QUOTE=Megafan;42258392]Is there some reason the actual managerial tasks couldn't be left to state governments while being forced to uphold a minimum standard of quality? That sounds like 'separate management' to me.[/QUOTE] It is easy to implement a socialized medicine system in a country with very low poverty, a low population density and very high tax rates. You it's not so easy in California or Arizona. A large portion of the US doesn't pay taxes, A larger population is in need of healthcare than almost any other developed nation (obesity, huge amount of old people, more preexisting conditions). Try implementing it and half of the states will either have to implement MASSIVE tax increases, or will go bankrupt. It could work in Massachusetts or Vermont, not Illinois.
[QUOTE='[sluggo];42258846']It is easy to implement a socialized medicine system in a country with very low poverty, a low population density and very high tax rates. You it's not so easy in California or Arizona.[/quote] Can you prove this in any way? I suspect even if the EU implemented some kind of Europe-wide healthcare programme in the future it wouldn't suddenly break down under 'too much population'. [QUOTE='[sluggo];42258846']A large portion of the US doesn't pay taxes[/quote] Just so I know, to who are you referring specifically? [QUOTE='[sluggo];42258846']A larger population is in need of healthcare than almost any other developed nation (obesity, huge amount of old people, more preexisting conditions). Try implementing it and half of the states will either have to implement MASSIVE tax increases, or will go bankrupt. It could work in Massachusetts or Vermont, not Illinois.[/QUOTE] I didn't mean that the states would fund it alone, obviously some categorical grants from the federal government would be involved as well.
It is a Republican inspired plan to simply levy a heapload of regulations on private insurance companies instead of simply making the whole thing public
[QUOTE=Megafan;42258896]Can you prove this in any way? I suspect even if the EU implemented some kind of Europe-wide healthcare programme in the future it wouldn't suddenly break down under 'too much population'. Just so I know, to who are you referring specifically? I didn't mean that the states would fund it alone, obviously some categorical grants from the federal government would be involved as well.[/QUOTE] Firstly, I am referring to a large portion of the population that would not sustain itself with healthcare (weather that be the old, infirm, poor, tax cheats, whoever). Justified or not a large portion of the population is not sufficient in that way. Do you know why they instated the Individual mandate within the reform bill? Because of people who weren't self sufficient. People weren't buying health insurance and were forcing costs onto everyone else (although they were also bankrupting themselves). Shift this onto the taxpayer completely, and do you think that the amount of people cheating will go down. It won't go down when they are no longer in ANY danger from it. It would be like other programs now. The very rich would support everyone else, they have lawyers. The middle class and lower echelon of the upper classes would again fund everything for those who can't or won't fund themselves. Anyway the problem with a larger population (aside from what I just listed) is just plain management, instead of shifting a smaller system over and dealing with little backlash, you are shifting a multi-billion dollar industry onto the government. You would have to shut down health insurance companies and lay employees off. They would become almost useless aside from supplementary insurance for greater care. The people who want that can afford it be themselves. You would have to raise everyone's taxes hugely. Not exactly easy or good for the economy. How long would it take to transition? How would you do all of this? It is just not really realistic. The cost is to great.
America has the shittest health care system in a first world country. But I may have bias considering Australia has one of the best.
[QUOTE=Badballer;42260169]America has the shittest health care system in a first world country. But I may have bias considering Australia has one of the best.[/QUOTE] America's healthcare system is awful. My former coworker and a good friend of mine was recently diagnosed with lung cancer. This is the second time I'll lose someone because of our shit healthcare. He's going to just ride it out and hope for the best because it can't pay for the treatment... He has this plan of quitting his job and spending the rest of his days down in Oregon with his family. He seems so calm about it... like he's accepted his fate. I've never seen someone so at peace with slowly dying, it's almost more depressing than a normal reaction most people would have. I don't know how much time he has left but I hope he's a miracle case and lives a long life even with cancer.
[QUOTE=FingerSpazem;42260203]America's healthcare system is awful. My former coworker and a good friend of mine was recently diagnosed with lung cancer. This is the second time I'll lose someone because of our shit healthcare. He's going to just ride it out and hope for the best because it can't pay for the treatment... He has this plan of quitting his job and spending the rest of his days down in Oregon with his family. He seems so calm about it... like he's accepted his fate. I've never seen someone so at peace with slowly dying, it's almost more depressing than a normal reaction most people would have. I don't know how much time he has left but I hope he's a miracle case and lives a long life even with cancer.[/QUOTE] I'm really sorry, friend
[QUOTE=LoganIsAwesome;42255226]Is it not good enough of a pun for you[/QUOTE] . . .I don't think you quite know what a pun is.
[QUOTE=FingerSpazem;42260203]America's healthcare system is awful. My former coworker and a good friend of mine was recently diagnosed with lung cancer. This is the second time I'll lose someone because of our shit healthcare. He's going to just ride it out and hope for the best because it can't pay for the treatment... He has this plan of quitting his job and spending the rest of his days down in Oregon with his family. He seems so calm about it... like he's accepted his fate. I've never seen someone so at peace with slowly dying, it's almost more depressing than a normal reaction most people would have. I don't know how much time he has left but I hope he's a miracle case and lives a long life even with cancer.[/QUOTE]I'm really sorry to hear that, that really sucks. In contrast, my girlfriend's gran recently had some cancer removed and our healthcare is spending $10,000 a month on her (super expensive) medication so the cancer does not come back. I wish America would just get their shit together so people like your friend can actually receive treatment.
[QUOTE=Megafan;42257461]You know there are more people in Europe than in the US, right?[/QUOTE] there are more people in europe but there's not one big unit managing everything about healthcare in europe. that's part of the problem with obamacare, it would suggest one centralized unit managing 315 or so million people worth of healthcare rather than some 50 units managing an average of 10 million people each. we'd be taking on 3000% of the work that each european healthcare agency does
[QUOTE=person11;42259077]It is a Republican inspired plan to simply levy a heapload of regulations on private insurance companies instead of simply making the whole thing public[/QUOTE] No, their plan is basically "Oh, you can't afford healthcare? Well pull yourself up by the bootstraps and make more money, bitch". [editline]21st September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE='[sluggo];42259228'] You would have to raise everyone's taxes hugely. Not exactly easy or good for the economy. [/QUOTE] Or just defund organizations like the TSA. We pump enough money into robbing air travellers to pay for this no problem. [editline]21st September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Badballer;42260479] I wish America would just get their shit together so people like your friend can actually receive treatment.[/QUOTE] So do we. The problem is the government is run by a bunch of corrupt retards that seem to think pushing their political agenda is more important than the health and well being of the people that A: pay their salary B: put them in office in the first place.
[QUOTE=LoganIsAwesome;42255226]Is it not good enough of a pun for you[/QUOTE] I suggest you learn what a play on words is...
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