• David Cameron: 'Don’t complain about welfare cuts, go and find work'
    217 replies, posted
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;34388662]Not always that easy to be honest, starting a decent business usually requires a lot of money and skill that a lot of people just don't have.[/QUOTE] Not true when the internet is involved. Startup costs are generally small.
[QUOTE=Bawbag;34388670]Not true when the internet is involved. Startup costs are generally small.[/QUOTE] Yeah but if you come from a fairly poor background I could imagine it being fairly hard to get the supplies to start up a business.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;34388694]Yeah but if you come from a fairly poor background I could imagine it being fairly hard to get the supplies to start up a business.[/QUOTE] There's grants available to start up a small business. Plus for example, in the VPS hosting industry, there is a 30-60% profit margin, so you can make around £600-£2000 a month without much trouble, if you had the time and skill to do so.
[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;34385586]I was implying I dont give a fuck about politics.[/QUOTE] fuck the system down with thatcher [editline]25th January 2012[/editline] Dave's got it right with this one. I don't know many people, regardless of their party allegiance, who don't agree with this cap. I've been hearing a lot of "you try raising three kids on only 26k a year!" to which you simply must reply "try doing the same on half that while trying to hold down a job." Also "there are no jobs out there to go to" roughly translates into "there are lots of bad jobs out there that I don't want to do"
[QUOTE=Bawbag;34388345]I was born into a middle class family, wasn't sent anywhere, and I'm doing perfectly fine. Effort and a little bit of thinking is all you really need.[/QUOTE] reeking of smugness
[QUOTE=James*;34389655]reeking of smugness[/QUOTE] Reeking of unemployed
[QUOTE=Bawbag;34389695]Reeking of unemployed[/QUOTE] Sorry, afraid not. I was lucky enough to get a job just before the recession but I realise not everyone has it that easy (obviously you are under the impression everyone has the same opportunities and privileges as you)
[QUOTE=Bawbag;34388214]That's probably because people successfully defrauding benefits [b]haven't been caught[/b]. Do you really think you could get accurate statistics on fraud while only counting the people who have been caught?[/QUOTE] That's not how reason works. You're operating off a preconceived notion and rejecting data because of it. I have the same amount of reason to believe the data is actually [I]high[/I] due to rampant politically-biased misreporting and the actual fraud level is zero as I do to believe the data is [I]low[/I] because welfare scammers are fucking masterminds of crime who elude notice. [QUOTE=Bawbag;34388727]There's grants available to start up a small business. Plus for example, in the VPS hosting industry, there is a 30-60% profit margin, so you can make around £600-£2000 a month without much trouble, if you had the time and skill to do so.[/QUOTE] Are you seriously implying somebody who came from a lower economic condition would know how to do that, much less that they'd get a grant for it? It's called [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_capital"]cultural capital[/URL], you have some, not everybody else does.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;34389752]Are you seriously implying somebody who came from a lower economic condition would know how to do that, much less that they'd get a grant for it? It's called [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_capital"]cultural capital[/URL], you have some, not everybody else does.[/QUOTE] If they wanted to, they could learn how to. The grants are there for people who can't afford to start up a business themselves -- so yes. It isn't that they lack the capability to learn how to do something like that; it's that they don't have the drive to. And that isn't our problem, it's theirs. [QUOTE=Xenocidebot;34389752]That's not how reason works. You're operating off a preconceived notion and rejecting data because of it. I have the same amount of reason to believe the data is actually [I]high[/I] due to rampant politically-biased misreporting and the actual fraud level is zero as I do to believe the data is [I]low[/I] because welfare scammers are fucking masterminds of crime who elude notice.[/QUOTE] Since when did you have to be a mastermind to cheat and get away with it?
I think there are a few people in this thread who could probably earn a living in the excuse manufacturing business, or maybe doing snowflake impersonation, since they are so unique and different from the rest of us who buckle down and get a job.
[QUOTE=Bawbag;34387446]He [b]always[/b] questions [b]sensible, necessary measures[/b] that are [b]slightly right wing[/b].[/QUOTE] uh you're just making stuff bold. if that's supposed to convince me that it's sensible and necessary you are doing a terrible job. you say "nonsensical left-wing bullshit" and then say i should agree with something that you consider right wing. why? i haven't heard one good bloody reason. but no, just say i'm wrong for being left-wing, that always convinces me. [editline]25th January 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Bawbag;34389841] Since when did you have to be a mastermind to cheat and get away with it?[/QUOTE] why the fuck would anyone believe this nonsense story about abuse when actual real research is done and finds complete evidence of the contrary? you saying it's because they haven't been caught. that is completely broken logic and it's evil to suggest that real people should be impacted by fake made up people that haven't been caught.
[QUOTE=thisispain;34391256]uh you're just making stuff bold. if that's supposed to convince me that it's sensible and necessary you are doing a terrible job. you say "nonsensical left-wing bullshit" and then say i should agree with something that you consider right wing. why? i haven't heard one good bloody reason. but no, just say i'm wrong for being left-wing, that always convinces me. [editline]25th January 2012[/editline] why the fuck would anyone believe this nonsense story about abuse when actual real research is done and finds complete evidence of the contrary? you saying it's because they haven't been caught. that is completely broken logic and it's evil to suggest that real people should be impacted by fake made up people that haven't been caught.[/QUOTE] Common sense. You got all hyped up against anyone agreeing with David Cameron's actions. Why? His actions make perfect sense. No family of four needs more than £20k a year to survive. Why should they be entitled to more than £26k? Nobody should be given £26k from the government. This measure won't stop benefit fraud, but it will stop the ones claiming >£30k from making a handsome profit.
I'm a student living in the middle of a city and I have been searching jobs for a good while, during term time literally all of the jobs in department stores etc are taken by uni/college students, I applied for quite a few places and got no replies, and I actually find very few jobs everywhere I search (All of the stores I searched for only had manager positions available)
[QUOTE=Bawbag;34389841]It isn't that they lack the capability to learn how to do something like that; it's that they don't have the drive to. And that isn't our problem, it's theirs.[/QUOTE] So you're going to totally dismiss sociology in favor of assuming they're all lazy bastards. It's like talking to a dumpster.
[QUOTE=AngryChairR;34377179]It is a well established fact that unemployed people are content with their lives without jobs. They aren't looking for jobs.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=AngryChairR;34377179]it doesn't take 6 months to get a job.[/QUOTE] are you serious
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;34392389]So you're going to totally dismiss sociology in favor of assuming they're all lazy bastards. It's like talking to a dumpster.[/QUOTE] There's nothing to dismiss. Unless you're mentally retarded, there is no reason to not be able to learn something if you want to learn it. And for those who are mentally retarded, they would pass the health checks to be incapable of work and so would be supported by the government.
[QUOTE=Bawbag;34392572]There's nothing to dismiss. Unless you're mentally retarded, there is no reason to not be able to learn something if you want to learn it. And for those who are mentally retarded, they would pass the health checks to be incapable of work and so would be supported by the government.[/QUOTE] You're aware that by saying this you're essentially saying two things: 1. That a legitimately poor job market does not and literally can not hinder someone's ability to get a job. 2. That anyone who does not have a job for an extended period of time only is in that position because they were too lazy to get a job or are actively passing up 'lesser' jobs. Do you have anything to substantiate what you're saying beyond [I]just saying[/I] "the unemployed are lazy"?
[QUOTE=Bawbag;34392572]There's nothing to dismiss. Unless you're mentally retarded, there is no reason to not be able to learn something if you want to learn it. And for those who are mentally retarded, they would pass the health checks to be incapable of work and so would be supported by the government.[/QUOTE] If the issue were as simple as you're making it out to be your country wouldn't be in this situation. How about you ACTUALLY fix the job market before just trying to dismiss everyone as lazy.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;34392646]If the issue were as simple as you're making it out to be your country wouldn't be in this situation. How about you ACTUALLY fix the job market before just trying to dismiss everyone as lazy.[/QUOTE] If the issue were as simple as he's making it out to be there would be no one unemployed.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;34392627]You're aware that by saying this you're essentially saying two things: 1. That a legitimately poor job market does not and literally can not hinder someone's ability to get a job. 2. That anyone who does not have a job for an extended period of time only is in that position because they were too lazy to get a job or are actively passing up 'lesser' jobs. Do you have anything to substantiate what you're saying beyond [I]just saying[/I] "the unemployed are lazy"?[/QUOTE] What I am saying [b]if you had bothered to read my posts[/b] is that becoming self employed is relatively easy, if you put your mind to learning a field in which you can employ yourself (as in my previous example, webhosting or VPS hosting; both of which are very profitable and doesn't require an insane amount of knowledge, only ingenuity) Once self employed, you are a much more attractive prospect for any employer. So you could run your own business, and then are also more likely to get a job in a shop, or even better. [QUOTE=Megafanx13;34392748]If the issue were as simple as he's making it out to be there would be no one unemployed.[/QUOTE] There's a [b]worldwide[/b] market. All you have to do is provide a service that is wanted over a lot of the world and you have no issues. There are startup grants for such projects available if required too; so there is no real excuse for not becoming self employed if you fail at becoming employed elsewhere.
that's like saying you could be in a band instead of being unemployed. sure it's a possibility but it requires time and knowledge about it and even then it's not a guaranteed source of income.
[QUOTE=thisispain;34392897]that's like saying you could be in a band instead of being unemployed. sure it's a possibility but it requires time and knowledge about it and even then it's not a guaranteed source of income.[/QUOTE] Yeah, because unemployed people are really short of time. Knowledge can be gained, and they will still be supported by the government until their business is successful.
As much as it pains me to say this, I don't think that kind of entrepreneurship is exceedingly common, and perhaps your aptitude at finding underdeveloped fields and markets is superior to many.
[QUOTE=Contag;34392933]As much as it pains me to say this, I don't think that kind of entrepreneurship is exceedingly common, and perhaps your aptitude at finding underdeveloped fields and markets is superior to many.[/QUOTE] The idea that any unemployed person has access to training for running a business, let alone setting one up that can make money, is preposterous.
[QUOTE=Bawbag;34392930]Yeah, because unemployed people are really short of time.[/QUOTE] between job searches and involuntary work, maybe. most unemployed people are not young people from the internet generation and being short of time was not the only barrier that i suggested.
It takes a lot to start a successful business, especially in a recession, I think it's fairly unfair to expect everyone to have the same ability. A major part of the problem has been caused by Cameron cutting all the jobs in the public sector, shoving people out of work. I don't really blame those who are on unemployment benefits, but I do think there needs to be a cap on the amount of money you can be given, just not in the way the Tories are doing it.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;34392983]The idea that any unemployed person has access to training for running a business, let alone setting one up that can make money, is preposterous.[/QUOTE] The thing is that with the internet and libraries, there is a wealth of information available, and the internet allows people to trade with significantly reduced overhead costs. Just look at etsy.com as an example of a decentralized neo-cottage industry
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;34392983]The idea that any unemployed person has access to training for running a business, let alone setting one up that can make money, is preposterous.[/QUOTE] Where do you think all small webhosting business originally came from? Brohoster: Created by [url=http://www.facepunch.com/member.php?u=285357]JWJ[/url], he didn't have much spare cash flying about FanaticalVPS: Created by [url=http://www.facepunch.com/members/298810-Fizzadar]Fizzadar[/url]. Full time student, hence not much spare cash. RethinkVPS: Also created by a FPer. Can't remember their name on here though. None had severe employement, if any.
[QUOTE=thisispain;34393007]between job searches and involuntary work, maybe. most unemployed people are not young people from the internet generation and being short of time was not the only barrier that i suggested.[/QUOTE] This is true.
I'm a lazy public sector worker with my local council's Trading Standards Consumer Advice department. We offer a debt counselling service, helping people who are in deep shit with their finances. A good chunk of our clients are people who have given self employment a go and are now bankrupt because of it. It is relatively easy to become self employed, staying self employed is very difficult.
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