[QUOTE=Elspin;46884063]I have a hard time believing that the motors won't crap out or the constant vibrating of your fingers won't be uncomfortable long term.[/QUOTE]
Phone vibrators, while not exactly the same and being less precise, don't wear out like crazy and aren't uncomfortable. The linear actuators they're using are similar mechanically to speakers and speakers don't wear out really fast. And the vibrating would be just a very brief tap feeling most likely, just so you know how far you're moving your thumb.
[QUOTE]Yeah, I said if you leave a [I]touchpad[/I] what happens, not a thumbstick. Read it again, I gave an answer for every possible scenario and why each have their own annoying problems.[/QUOTE]
I was pointing out that thumbsticks do the exact same thing as a touchpad would
[QUOTE]None - but in most touchpads pressing on things lightly results in occasionally the touchpad reading non-contact (you might not notice this, but it definitely can happen, and I'd especially think it would happen here in something with ridges), so what happens during those momentary non-contacts?[/QUOTE]
You have to touch [I]really[/I] lightly for that though. I never have that issue with my touchpad on my laptop.
I will agree with you, those ridges would probably cause all sorts of problems so I suspect Valve has/will remove them
[QUOTE]Not sure how that works (does one of the controller buttons bring it up?) but if developers have to implement it themselves they likely just won't for the same reason they didn't implement an on-screen keyboard[/QUOTE]
I suspect the controller drivers would bring it up when the application focused on an input field
[QUOTE=Pelf;46884125]Phone vibrators, while not exactly the same and being less precise, don't wear out like crazy and aren't uncomfortable. The linear actuators they're using are similar mechanically to speakers and speakers don't wear out really fast. And the vibrating would be just a very brief tap feeling most likely, just so you know how far you're moving your thumb.[/QUOTE]
Why are you relating this to phone vibrators? They only have to vibrate briefly and would be [i]extremely[/i] uncomfortable if they had to vibrate for long periods of time and wear out quite quickly. If the controller isn't vibrating whenever you move it (which is often) it's not providing feedback.
[QUOTE]I was pointing out that thumbsticks do the exact same thing as a touchpad would[/QUOTE]
Alright, so that brings us to one of the problems in my list - games are not used to having to filter out a sudden 0 position in between valid joystick measurements so this could cause some havoc for developers. You don't want to have to rely on developers supporting your product for it to gain traction.
[QUOTE]You have to touch [I]really[/I] lightly for that though. I never have that issue with my touchpad on my laptop.[/QUOTE]
You might just not be noticing. Touchpads aren't usually used for anything timing sensitive so if it didn't respond for one or two frames while you were moving it you might not notice.
[QUOTE]I will agree with you, those ridges would probably cause all sorts of problems so I suspect Valve has/will remove them[/QUOTE]
Hopefully.
[QUOTE]I suspect the controller drivers would bring it up when the application focused on an input field[/QUOTE]
Drivers don't work like that - they can only really define how the computer reacts to the hardware's data sent in. You can't make a driver automagically do something when an input field is focused because there's no standardized way for it to know an input field [i]has[/i] been focused. For web browser controls that have been standardized, sure, but custom game GUI doesn't broadcast that kind of stuff. Valve only really has these options:
-put some kind of over-screen overlay the way fraps puts an FPS counter on screens over the game's rendering, and simulate keypresses in the program. this would rely on the user asking for an input wheel
-expect developers to add specific support for the feature
I usually disable vibration for everything. Controllers vibrating never felt nice or useful to me. Same on phones, even writing with vibration on is uncomfortable.
[QUOTE=Elspin;46884246]Why are you relating this to phone vibrators? They only have to vibrate briefly and would be [I]extremely[/I] uncomfortable if they had to vibrate for long periods of time and wear out quite quickly. If the controller isn't vibrating whenever you move it (which is often) it's not providing feedback.[/QUOTE]
From what I've heard in articles and steam dev days talks, the actuators will "tick" at certain ranges on the touchpad. For example, everytime you pass over 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 from the center, or pass over where those stupid ridges would have been, it will "tick" kind of like a phone would, although much smoother because the actuators are far more precise than a vibrator.
Regarding wear, current controllers vibrate for long periods of time yet they dont wear out super fast. Speakers vibrate constantly when playing a game yet they dont wear out super fast. Besides, if these actuators did wear out fast, they obviously wouldn't use them.
[QUOTE]Alright, so that brings us to one of the problems in my list - games are not used to having to filter out a sudden 0 position in between valid joystick measurements so this could cause some havoc for developers. You don't want to have to rely on developers supporting your product for it to gain traction.[/QUOTE]
0 just means your finger/mouse isn't moving. So in an fps for example going off the side edge just makes you stop turning your view. So you quick move your finger back to the other side and keep looking if you need.
[QUOTE]You might just not be noticing. Touchpads aren't usually used for anything timing sensitive so if it didn't respond for one or two frames while you were moving it you might not notice.[/QUOTE]
My touchpad works fine in games for me. I would imagine any decent touchpad doesn't have this issue, or that Valve fixed this supposed problem on theirs.
[QUOTE]Drivers don't work like that - [/QUOTE]
Regardless, I'm pretty sure Valve has a solution figured out.
[QUOTE=The article]"But it seems like there's a legitimate demand and push for living room PCs."[/QUOTE]
Where is this demand coming from? I feel like Im reasonably in the loop with regards to PC gaming trends and stuff, and I haven't seen ANY consumer demand for living room PCs, it seems like an idea being pushed solely by the industry. I dont think Ive ever talked to someone who dreamed of playing PC games on their TV using a gamepad (or even mouse/keyboard) and a separate "living room PC".
Am I missing something?
[QUOTE=Pelf;46884403]From what I've heard in articles and steam dev days talks, the actuators will "tick" at certain ranges on the touchpad. For example, everytime you pass over 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 from the center, or pass over where those stupid ridges would have been, it will "tick" kind of like a phone would, although much smoother because the actuators are far more precise than a vibrator.[/QUOTE]
Oh so it's not really providing feedback of position, just buzzing when you move outwards. Doesn't really sound like good feedback tbh and certainly not very tactile
[QUOTE]Regarding wear, current controllers vibrate for long periods of time yet they dont wear out super fast. Speakers vibrate constantly when playing a game yet they dont wear out super fast. Besides, if these actuators did wear out fast, they obviously wouldn't use them.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but they are big beefy things that are more durable. That kind of vibration motor would be very uncomfortable. "If they were bad they wouldn't use them" is not really logical - what you're saying it's good because if it wasn't good they wouldn't do it. Valve have made mistakes, they can make them again.
[QUOTE]0 just means your finger/mouse isn't moving. So in an fps for example going off the side edge just makes you stop turning your view. So you quick move your finger back to the other side and keep looking if you need.[/QUOTE]
If you were playing a very basic game or an fps maybe, but typically there's animations that respond to you starting and stopping motions that might react very poorly to suddenly going from say 79% tilt to 0% to 79% in the space of 3 frames.
[QUOTE]My touchpad works fine in games for me. I would imagine any decent touchpad doesn't have this issue, or that Valve fixed this supposed problem on theirs.[/QUOTE]
Again you're resorting to blind trust - "valve can't make mistakes so they've definitely fixed this"
[QUOTE]Regardless, I'm pretty sure Valve has a solution figured out.[/QUOTE]
aaaaand again, same as above. There are multiple solutions that work (really, in most of these cases) but I'm not going to blindly trust that a company has solved them. One of the biggest problems with a controller like this is I've never been able to try one - if you claim you've innovated a controller and the only way to find out if you really did is once you've already purchased it then sorry, no thanks.
[QUOTE=Elspin;46884464]
aaaaand again, same as above. There are multiple solutions that work (really, in most of these cases) but I'm not going to blindly trust that a company has solved them. One of the biggest problems with a controller like this is I've never been able to try one - if you claim you've innovated a controller and the only way to find out if you really did is once you've already purchased it then sorry, no thanks.[/QUOTE]
That makes no sense. Do you want a free copy or what?
[QUOTE=ThePanther;46883704]Does Valve realize that September of this year will mark 10 years since Day of Defeat Source was released? I feel like shit thinking about how that still feels like a "new cool release" from Valve. Seriously Valve, make some games again. It's killing me.[/QUOTE]
They didn't gave one shit for HL2 10th anniversary so my guess would be no.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;46884493]That makes no sense. Do you want a free copy or what?[/QUOTE]
Obviously not, getting copies out to stores like futureshop, ebgames, etc to demo it once it's finalized would be ideal.
[QUOTE=Elspin;46884528]Obviously not, getting copies out to stores like futureshop, ebgames, etc to demo it once it's finalized would be ideal.[/QUOTE]
I'm sure they will do it if it goes off the ground. That's only logical.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;46884557]I'm sure they will do it if it goes off the ground. That's only logical.[/QUOTE]
Hopefully, my point was just that I'm not going to blindly trust that the relatively large list of potential issues with such a controller design have been resolved until I try it myself.
I would much rather they worked on the software side of the controller integration. I heard they planned on making it so players could make configurations for any game and upload them, so nearly every game would have controller support. If they made it like that, so you can choose any type of config, and just make it work with a 360 controller or whatever, it would be much better.
Being able to play any game with a controller would be the best thing ever. Some days I just wanna sit on the couch and play a game with a controller.
[QUOTE=Over-Run;46884609]I would much rather they worked on the software side of the controller integration. I heard they planned on making it so players could make configurations for any game and upload them, so nearly every game would have controller support. If they made it like that, so you can choose any type of config, and just make it work with a 360 controller or whatever, it would be much better.
Being able to play any game with a controller would be the best thing ever. Some days I just wanna sit on the couch and play a game with a controller.[/QUOTE]
The point of steam controller was to play games you normally can't play with one or it plays very badly.
[QUOTE=Elspin;46884464]Oh so it's not really providing feedback of position, just buzzing when you move outwards. Doesn't really sound like good feedback tbh and certainly not very tactile[/QUOTE]
I looked up on this and the older version they gave out at SDD does tick as your finger moves, which would be better for tactile feedback.
[QUOTE]Yeah, but they are big beefy things that are more durable. That kind of vibration motor would be very uncomfortable. "If they were bad they wouldn't use them" is not really logical - what you're saying it's good because if it wasn't good they wouldn't do it. Valve have made mistakes, they can make them again.[/QUOTE]
Cell phone vibrators aren't big and beefy, they can't be. Yet they last a long time. Little earbud speakers aren't big and beefy but they last a long time too.
It is logical, it's called quality control. If it wears out after a hundred or so hours of use then it's no good and they won't use them because it won't pass quality control. Valve may make mistakes but they aren't stupid. They don't hire engineers just out of college. Any experienced engineer knows that they need to use components that last the design lifetime.
[QUOTE]If you were playing a very basic game or an fps maybe, but typically there's animations that respond to you starting and stopping motions that might react very poorly to suddenly going from say 79% tilt to 0% to 79% in the space of 3 frames.[/QUOTE]
I can flick my mouse and go from super-fast-sideways to motionless in a fraction of a second too. This isn't an issue unique to touchpads. It's really not much of an issue at all.
[QUOTE]Again you're resorting to blind trust - "valve can't make mistakes so they've definitely fixed this"[/QUOTE]
I trust them because they respect their customers and as an engineer, I trust their experienced engineers will not make stupid decisions.
[QUOTE]aaaaand again, same as above. There are multiple solutions that work (really, in most of these cases) but I'm not going to blindly trust that a company has solved them. One of the biggest problems with a controller like this is I've never been able to try one - if you claim you've innovated a controller and the only way to find out if you really did is once you've already purchased it then sorry, no thanks.[/QUOTE]
If you want to wait to try it for yourself before you buy one, just say that. Dragging on with almost pointless and baseless criticism doesn't help anyone (except maybe yourself because maybe you now know more about how it works idk)
[QUOTE=Pelf;46884697]I looked up on this and the older version they gave out at SDD does tick as your finger moves, which would be better for tactile feedback.[/QUOTE]
Still skeptical about how comfortable this would be long-term.
[QUOTE]Cell phone vibrators aren't big and beefy, they can't be. Yet they last a long time. Little earbud speakers aren't big and beefy but they last a long time too.
It is logical, it's called quality control. If it wears out after a hundred or so hours of use then it's no good and they won't use them because it won't pass quality control. Valve may make mistakes but they aren't stupid. They don't hire engineers just out of college. Any experienced engineer knows that they need to use components that last the design lifetime.[/QUOTE]
You're flicking back and forth between comparing two different products to one whenever it's convenient for your argument. One motor runs infrequently for short bursts to provide durability, one is bulkier and provides a more violent longer shake. In any case "quality control" is not some kind of magic elf that makes a product work, and plenty of companies fuck up on it (even ones that used to make really good products).
[QUOTE]I can flick my mouse and go from super-fast-sideways to motionless in a fraction of a second too. This isn't an issue unique to touchpads. It's really not much of an issue at all.[/QUOTE]
Different scenario, completely unrelated.
[QUOTE]I trust them because they respect their customers and as an engineer, I trust their experienced engineers will not make stupid decisions.[/QUOTE]
Valve has no respect or concern for its customers past their bottom line, in all my past experiences dealing with their customer service is a battle and the times gabe has responded to an email or something doesn't change the vast majority of valve's interactions with their customers
[QUOTE]If you want to wait to try it for yourself before you buy one, just say that. Dragging on with almost pointless and baseless criticism doesn't help anyone (except maybe yourself because maybe you now know more about how it works idk)[/QUOTE]
Jesus I cannot imagine how you can say "Valve will definitely do it right they can't possibly mess up because they hire engineers" (hint: all companies do this, and they do fuck up. logitech in particular has been making awful products lately) and then turn around and say my legitimate concerns are "baseless criticism" :suicide:
I get that you're a fan and you'd like to believe that nothing valve does will be awful, but it totally can be. As for whether or not I know more about it works, yes, I do, I'm an engineer who works in consulting and project design. You don't need to be though to see how these problems could pop up
If anything, Valve can mess up a whole lot. See steam, tons of mess ups, little regret.
[QUOTE=Elspin;46884798]You're flicking back and forth between comparing two different products to one whenever it's convenient for your argument. One motor runs infrequently for short bursts to provide durability, one is bulkier and provides a more violent longer shake. In any case "quality control" is not some kind of magic elf that makes a product work, and plenty of companies fuck up on it (even ones that used to make really good products).[/QUOTE]
Then just compare it to speakers which are more similar mechanically. Durability of the coil/core piece of speakers has never been an issue for me which is why I think the criticism of the durability of the actuators is rather pointless. Can they screw it up? Yes. Are the actuators a likely source of failure? I would say not based on the aforementioned examples and my experience with mechanically similar devices.
[QUOTE]Different scenario, completely unrelated.[/QUOTE]
How so? When a mouse isn't moving, the input value is zero. I can stop my mouse very fast and change the input from .79 to 0 in 3 frames, just like your supposed issue with touchpads.
[QUOTE]Valve has no respect or concern for its customers past their bottom line, in all my past experiences dealing with their customer service is a battle and the times gabe has responded to an email or something doesn't change the vast majority of valve's interactions with their customers[/QUOTE]
This is simply a matter of opinion, although perhaps I should have used better wording. I agree, they don't respect their customer very much; I should have said they value their customers.
[QUOTE]Jesus I cannot imagine how you can say "Valve will definitely do it right they can't possibly mess up because they hire engineers" (hint: all companies do this, and they do fuck up. logitech in particular has been making awful products lately) and then turn around and say my legitimate concerns are "baseless criticism" :suicide:[/QUOTE]
I thought your criticism regarding the durability of the actuators was unfounded/baseless. And I don't think they will deliver simply because "they hire engineers", but because they have a history of only hiring the from the best talent, which i'm assuming extends to the engineers they hire.
[QUOTE]I get that you're a fan and you'd like to believe that nothing valve does will be awful, but it totally can be. As for whether or not I know more about it works, yes, I do, I'm an engineer who works in consulting and project design. You don't need to be though to see how these problems could pop up[/QUOTE]
Not entirely what I meant by that. I wasn't sure who I was debating, maybe you didn't know beforehand some of the details of the controller, which is why I said maybe you learned something idk. But it seems we just differ based on our trust for Valve. I have my complaints with valve (the steam client, customer support, etc) but I'm confident they will deliver with th controller, especially if reviews of the SDD version are anything to go by. If they do screw it up, well shit, hopefully someone else would come along and take a try at it.
I don't see anything useful coming from continuing this debate. I appreciate your concerns, I agree with some of them, I don't with others. I think this is promising tech and I look forward to seeing what their final design will be.
I really do want to try the original Steam Machine controller, before they turned it into a madcatz controller.
I feel like I'd like it.
[QUOTE=Pelf;46885125]Then just compare it to speakers which are more similar mechanically. Durability of the coil/core piece of speakers has never been an issue for me which is why I think the criticism of the durability of the actuators is rather pointless. Can they screw it up? Yes. Are the actuators a likely source of failure? I would say not based on the aforementioned examples and my experience with mechanically similar devices.[/QUOTE]
Your examples and experience are not relevant, as they are different devices used in different ways for different reasons.
[QUOTE]How so? When a mouse isn't moving, the input value is zero. I can stop my mouse very fast and change the input from .79 to 0 in 3 frames, just like your supposed issue with touchpads.[/QUOTE]
Left joystick movement often controls an object that's animating ie running to stop animation changes so a sudden change in its position could cause strange things when the game isn't expecting it. You're introducing a problem that's not normally there, and it would be up to the developer to deal with it. A mouse isn't similar because it's intended to smooth out sudden rapid changes in movement and in general doesn't control lengthy animation changes.
[QUOTE]This is simply a matter of opinion, although perhaps I should have used better wording. I agree, they don't respect their customer very much; I should have said they value their customers.[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't really say it has anything to opinion but that's a better wording, yes.
[QUOTE]I thought your criticism regarding the durability of the actuators was unfounded/baseless. And I don't think they will deliver simply because "they hire engineers", but because they have a history of only hiring the from the best talent, which i'm assuming extends to the engineers they hire.[/QUOTE]
Once again, fallacious argument, you're the one who's unfounded/baseless here. Just because a company has often done things well, doesn't mean they can't suddenly make a shit (or just mediocre) product, it's happened quite a bit. Not to mention valve has goofed up plenty of things
[QUOTE]Not entirely what I meant by that. I wasn't sure who I was debating, maybe you didn't know beforehand some of the details of the controller, which is why I said maybe you learned something idk. But it seems we just differ based on our trust for Valve. I have my complaints with valve (the steam client, customer support, etc) but I'm confident they will deliver with th controller, especially if reviews of the SDD version are anything to go by. If they do screw it up, well shit, hopefully someone else would come along and take a try at it.[/QUOTE]
I see potential flaws with no explained solution, and so I'm not sold on the concept unless they're addressed. You wanted to know why people don't like touchpads for gaming, I've given you some answers. It's possible it will be good but until I see proof, I'm not going to gamble on it.
[QUOTE]I don't see anything useful coming from continuing this debate. I appreciate your concerns, I agree with some of them, I don't with others. I think this is promising tech and I look forward to seeing what their final design will be.[/QUOTE]
It's fine if you don't understand the concerns, but in the end given that the touchpads have been mostly ditched it seems like valve agreed with me. You might think that it was purely a design choice, but have you considered that maybe the possible problems I mentioned are [i]why[/i] they ditched them? Specifically I was talking about how animations might be gibbled with twitches in the left pad - and sure enough that's the pad that it looks like they replaced with a joystick. Their R&D team's job is to determine if an approach is viable and a change in design doesn't necessarily mean a change in what they wanted to do, it might just mean it didn't work well.
Right now it's not at all certain what they've done with the left touchpad.
They did add a few new config modes in a recent beta (same time they added [url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SteamDatabase/SteamTracking/e7dfd4fec81db7d3a37562b343eee9cf62db1193/ClientExtracted/tenfoot/resource/images/library/controller/controller_config_controller.png]the image Gamasutra is using in their post[/url]).
[img]https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SteamDatabase/SteamTracking/e7dfd4fec81db7d3a37562b343eee9cf62db1193/ClientExtracted/tenfoot/resource/images/library/controller/input_controller_mode_bpad.png[/img]
bpad mode
[img]https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SteamDatabase/SteamTracking/e7dfd4fec81db7d3a37562b343eee9cf62db1193/ClientExtracted/tenfoot/resource/images/library/controller/input_controller_mode_dpad.png[/img]
dpad mode
[img]https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SteamDatabase/SteamTracking/e7dfd4fec81db7d3a37562b343eee9cf62db1193/ClientExtracted/tenfoot/resource/images/library/controller/input_controller_mode_mouse_simple.png[/img]
mouse simple
[img]https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SteamDatabase/SteamTracking/e7dfd4fec81db7d3a37562b343eee9cf62db1193/ClientExtracted/tenfoot/resource/images/library/controller/input_controller_mode_mouse_complex.png[/img]
mouse complex
[img]https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SteamDatabase/SteamTracking/e7dfd4fec81db7d3a37562b343eee9cf62db1193/ClientExtracted/tenfoot/resource/images/library/controller/input_controller_mode_stick.png[/img]
stick mode
Until they implement the new configuration tool that uses these images we can't be sure as to what they did to the left trackpad. My guess is that it's still there but just with an indented feel to it.
I'm interested to see how it turns out.
Also, is it me or is Valve making a lot more precise predictions? (see: Dota 2 Source 2 Announcement, Valve before would never make an announcement like that for really anything) If they start coming true, maybe they're finally getting their shit together about Valve Time.
[QUOTE=Gamerman12;46885969]I'm interested to see how it turns out.
Also, is it me or is Valve making a lot more precise predictions? (see: Dota 2 Source 2 Announcement, Valve before would never make an announcement like that for really anything) If they start coming true, maybe they're finally getting their shit together about Valve Time.[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't get my hopes up just yet.
As much as i like Valve, they need a swift kick in the ass.
[QUOTE=Marlamin;46885979]Wouldn't get my hopes up just yet.[/QUOTE]
i'm optimistc they've learned something. and if not i'll continue to bend over to them because i'll forever love you valve doN'T FORGET MY LOVE GABE
I might get a steam controller if it's easy to set up. I don't want to buy a xbone controller because haha fuck microsoft and from what I've seen the DS4 is still a little fiddly.
I guess I could try logitech.
if this is pretty much an xbox why would I get a Steam pad when the Xbox pad or PS4 gamepad work both pc and console the steam one needed to be something unique for me to care
[QUOTE=Marlamin;46885828]Right now it's not at all certain what they've done with the left touchpad.
They did add a few new config modes in a recent beta (same time they added [url=https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SteamDatabase/SteamTracking/e7dfd4fec81db7d3a37562b343eee9cf62db1193/ClientExtracted/tenfoot/resource/images/library/controller/controller_config_controller.png]the image Gamasutra is using in their post[/url]).
[img]https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SteamDatabase/SteamTracking/e7dfd4fec81db7d3a37562b343eee9cf62db1193/ClientExtracted/tenfoot/resource/images/library/controller/input_controller_mode_mouse_simple.png[/img]
mouse simple
[img]https://raw.githubusercontent.com/SteamDatabase/SteamTracking/e7dfd4fec81db7d3a37562b343eee9cf62db1193/ClientExtracted/tenfoot/resource/images/library/controller/input_controller_mode_mouse_complex.png[/img]
mouse complex
Until they implement the new configuration tool that uses these images we can't be sure as to what they did to the left trackpad. My guess is that it's still there but just with an indented feel to it.[/QUOTE]
Any word on the differences between these two?
[QUOTE=LegndNikko;46889166]Any word on the differences between these two?[/QUOTE]
Probably twice the speed? Maybe you need to use both touchpads for the complex one? Who knows. Existing Steam Controller should have that functionality, probably someone on FP that has one.
Personally I'm really excited about the Steam controller. Especially about the trackpads.
I'm horrible with sticks. I can't use them accurately. I always just turn them the whole way to the edge and it's really difficult for me to just turn them slightly.
With trackpads I see/imagine myself doing a lot better.
[QUOTE=Skorpy;46889403]Personally I'm really excited about the Steam controller. Especially about the trackpads.
I'm horrible with sticks. I can't use them accurately. I always just turn them the whole way to the edge and it's really difficult for me to just turn them slightly.
With trackpads I see/imagine myself doing a lot better.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, from the devs I've talked to that received a Steam Controller (2 revisions old by now) the trackpads aren't at all difficult [b]once you get the hang of it[/b]. Getting into them initially is harder than say sticks but once you are used to it you can be more precise.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.