Indiana just banned abortion if the fetus has Down syndrome
198 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006621]You didn't answer my question, is death preferable to living in poverty?[/QUOTE]
How is this at all related to poverty?
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006633]To a fetus it would seem almost entirely involuntary.[/QUOTE]
it would actually not seem like anything to the fetus
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006593]Then you admit that death is preferable to living in poverty.[/QUOTE]
Dont make it out as being as simple as that.
[QUOTE=Durandal;50006646]How is this at all related to poverty?[/QUOTE]
Part of the argument is that a child should be aborted if the mother and father cannot financially support it. I asked if being dead or being raised in poverty is better.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;50006649]it would actually not seem like anything to the fetus[/QUOTE]
So you've experienced this firsthand, I take it.
Fetuses are just clumps of cells for weeks on end.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006621]You didn't answer my question, is death preferable to living in poverty?[/QUOTE]
Some issues:
1. It was not a question, it was an assumption that I admitted that somehow.
2. Your "question" was not even directed at me, so why would I have answered it?
3. It's irrelevant. If I had said, "The fetus' well-being doesn't matter a bit and the woman should have unilateral control over her body in all situations," death vs. living in poverty would be [I]completely irrelevant[/I]. So why continue to ask it?
[editline]25th March 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006674]Part of the argument is that a child should be aborted if the mother and father cannot financially support it. I asked if being dead or being raised in poverty is better.[/QUOTE]
That only matters if all you take into account is the fetus' well-being. Hence:
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;50006610]Turns out it's not all about what the fetus would want.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=axelord157;50006679]Fetuses are just clumps of cells for weeks on end.[/QUOTE]
"Jews are just rats, they need not be treated like humans, they don't function like you or I"
you guys may think this analogy is far fetched but it's really unsettling how eerily Nazi-esque your guy's language is on this matter.
I suppose I can't argue the life question since you all have unanimously decided this thing that you once were is no longer worthy of defense.
I doubt a fetus would agree with you all, but they aren't people I suppose.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006468]People should also not be able to terminate a person because they're differently abled.[/QUOTE]
Much better to force the family (if there even is one) to raise a disabled child and take on that financial and emotional burden for the rest of their lives for a child they didn't want in the first place. What could go wrong?
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006674]Part of the argument is that a child should be aborted if the mother and father cannot financially support it. I asked if being dead or being raised in poverty is better.
[B]So you've experienced this firsthand, I take it[/B].[/QUOTE]
I've also never had my knees broken, but i know it hurts. Wierd how that works, doesn't it?
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006693]"Jews are just rats, they need not be treated like humans, they don't function like you or I"
you guys may think this analogy is far fetched but it's really unsettling how eerily Nazi-esque your guy's language is on this matter.[/QUOTE]
We're talking about a scientific differentiation between a grown and developed human organism and a fetus.. Not ideological views on the Jewish race. Fetuses are literally clumps of cells for a long period of time, Jews are not literally rats.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006693]"Jews are just rats, they need not be treated like humans, they don't function like you or I"
you guys may think this analogy is far fetched but it's really unsettling how eerily Nazi-esque your guy's language is on this matter.[/QUOTE]
so are fetuses capable of making decisions and living without being attached to a host?
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006693]"Jews are just rats, they need not be treated like humans, they don't function like you or I"
you guys may think this analogy is far fetched but it's really unsettling how eerily Nazi-esque your guy's language is on this matter.[/QUOTE]
You could make precisely this argument if I said, "Rocks are inanimate, they need not be treated like humans, they don't function like you or I." So it doesn't make you wrong but it's basically a non-argument. All you have going for you there is a comparison of your opponents to Nazis.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006693]"Jews are just rats, they need not be treated like humans, they don't function like you or I"
you guys may think this analogy is far fetched but it's really unsettling how eerily Nazi-esque your guy's language is on this matter.
I suppose I can't argue the life question since you all have unanimously decided this thing that you once were is no longer worthy of defense.
I doubt a fetus would agree with you all, but they aren't people I suppose.[/QUOTE]
I think this analogy is far fetched because it is
if i were a fetus diagnosed with downs syndrome and was capable of giving input i would probably ask to be flushed so i could potentially have another roll of the dice somewhere else down the line.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006693]"Jews are just rats, they need not be treated like humans, they don't function like you or I"
you guys may think this analogy is far fetched but it's really unsettling how eerily Nazi-esque your guy's language is on this matter.
I suppose I can't argue the life question since you all have unanimously decided this thing that you once were is no longer worthy of defense.
I doubt a fetus would agree with you all, but they aren't people I suppose.[/QUOTE]
Except fetuses are literally, not metaphorically, not human. They're a potential human, and killing one isn't any different than killing a sperm or an egg.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006468]People should also not be able to terminate a person because they're differently abled.[/QUOTE]
People should not have to specify a reason to terminate a fetus.
And even if they did, raising a kid with down syndrome is a lot of responsibility. A lot of people who had to get through this will tell you the same thing, your life effectively is over once that happens and everything you do has to revolve around your kid, far more than with a normal child.
It's the kind of responsibility you need to be fully prepared for and willing to undertake otherwise the results would be catastrophic for the parents and for the child.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;50006713]You could make precisely this argument if I said, "Rocks are inanimate, they need not be treated like humans, they don't function like you or I." So it doesn't make you wrong but it's basically a non-argument. All you have going for you there is a comparison of your opponents to Nazis.[/QUOTE]
Rocks don't grow into humans, fetuses do, at least last time I checked. A baby does things I don't do, I don't look like a baby (I hope not), but I know I was one, and I know what a baby becomes.
babies don't have agency, are incapable of making any decisions and for all intents and purposes, will die if not taken care of by presumably the parents. Perhaps we should be able to cull them as well since they seem to fit some of the descriptions of "non-humans"
There is a difference between a baby and a fetus.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006633]To a fetus it would seem almost entirely involuntary.[/QUOTE]
to a fetus it actually wouldn't seem involuntary
it'd be nothing
they wouldn't even know what the difference between "involuntary" and "voluntary" would be or what either of those are
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006633]But in your second statement, you assert that quality of life is enough to be able to be terminated. I think that seems a bit biased, your quality of life could seem like luxury to a person of a lower station, and that quality of life would be the norm.
Where is the cut off line for what you deem a quality life? Why do you or some other individual get to make that delineation?[/quote]
dunno about you, but the quality of life someone with down syndrome has is wayyyyy below what I'd draw the line at
and we get to make the decision on where the line is drawn because it's our life, we get to make our own decisions
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006752]Rocks don't grow into humans, fetuses do, at least last time I checked. A baby does things I don't do, I don't look like a baby (I hope not), but I know I was one, and I know what a baby becomes.
babies don't have agency, are incapable of making any decisions and for all intents and purposes, will die if not taken care of by presumably the parents. Perhaps we should be able to cull them as well since they seem to fit some of the descriptions of "non-humans"[/QUOTE]
once again the stage of a human that is aborted is not a baby or even close to one
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006752]Rocks don't grow into humans, fetuses do, at least last time I checked. A baby does things I don't do, I don't look like a baby (I hope not), but I know I was one, and I know what a baby becomes.
babies don't have agency, are incapable of making any decisions and for all intents and purposes, will die if not taken care of by presumably the parents. Perhaps we should be able to cull them as well since they seem to fit some of the descriptions of "non-humans"[/QUOTE]
that baby is a self-contained entity that could be separated from its mother and be cared for by people entirely unrelated to it. a fetus can't unless you do some major medical science wizardry that is far from what is naturally intended. for much of the pregnancy, the fetus is more an extension of the mother than it is its own thing.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006752]Rocks don't grow into humans, fetuses do, at least last time I checked. A baby does things I don't do, I don't look like a baby (I hope not), but I know I was one, and I know what a baby becomes.
babies don't have agency, are incapable of making any decisions and for all intents and purposes, will die if not taken care of by presumably the parents. Perhaps we should be able to cull them as well since they seem to fit some of the descriptions of "non-humans"[/QUOTE]
The difference between a baby and a fetus is that a baby is the product of 9 months of emotional attachment, pain and effort from a mother. Plus it actually has a brain; a beautifully complex organ than learns and can feel things. A fetus has no unique or valuable characteristics at the time an abortion is carried out, and destroying one is no more morally reprehensible than getting your appendix removed. A baby has far more value than a fetus.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;50006755]There is a difference between a baby and a fetus.[/QUOTE]
By the definition provided by ninja gnome, a person as he sees it makes decisions and can live without sustenance provided by another being. To me someone that makes mindful decisions and can provide themselves with food is generally anywhere from 8 on up. Kids and babies don't make decisions, they can't feed themselves without extreme assistance, by that definition as defined by Gnome, a quarter the people in my family or in my neighborhood aren't what he calls people.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006752]Rocks don't grow into humans, fetuses do, at least last time I checked. A baby does things I don't do, I don't look like a baby (I hope not), but I know I was one, and I know what a baby becomes.
babies don't have agency, are incapable of making any decisions and for all intents and purposes, will die if not taken care of by presumably the parents. Perhaps we should be able to cull them as well since they seem to fit some of the descriptions of "non-humans"[/QUOTE]
Rocks don't become fetuses, but sperm do. Have I been committing genocide all these years? The ability to become something else does not endow something with all the same properties as what it would become.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006693]"Jews are just rats, they need not be treated like humans, they don't function like you or I"
you guys may think this analogy is far fetched but it's really unsettling how eerily Nazi-esque your guy's language is on this matter.
I suppose I can't argue the life question since you all have unanimously decided this thing that you once were is no longer worthy of defense.
I doubt a fetus would agree with you all, but they aren't people I suppose.[/QUOTE]
Cut the shitty argument. Fetuses are [U][B]LITERALLY[/B][/U] clumps of cells. A Jewish person is a being and thing with functioning organs, an ego, and sense of self-preservation.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006790]By the definition provided by ninja gnome, a person as he sees it makes decisions and can live without sustenance provided by another being. To me someone that makes mindful decisions and can provide themselves with food is generally anywhere from 8 on up. Kids and babies don't make decisions, they can't feed themselves without extreme assistance, by that definition as defined by Gnome, a quarter the people in my family or in my neighborhood aren't what he calls people.[/QUOTE]
A baby is physically independent. All of the bodily functions necessary for basic survival (ability to ingest and digest food, ability to breathe in and out, ability to defecate and urinate to remove waste from the digestive system, a heartbeat) are operational on a normal baby.
A fetus isn't physically independent. It requires a physical connection to a host (the mother) from which it obtains already digested food because it is not able to ingest it or digest it by itself year. They also cannot breathe, oxygen is supplied by the mother. Practically speaking, all that a fetus is capable of doing on its own is having a heartbeat.
Basically, a baby is a person because it's able to sustain itself from a physiological standpoint, it's just not self-reliant whatsoever. A fetus isn't a person because it's not able to sustain itself whatsoever, it requires a host to sustain it entirely.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006790]By the definition provided by ninja gnome, a person as he sees it makes decisions and can live without sustenance provided by another being. To me someone that makes mindful decisions and can provide themselves with food is generally anywhere from 8 on up. Kids and babies don't make decisions, they can't feed themselves without extreme assistance, by that definition as defined by Gnome, a quarter the people in my family or in my neighborhood aren't what he calls people.[/QUOTE]
you misinterpreted my definition. a baby doesn't literally have a lifeline attached from it to its mother. a fetus does. you could take a baby and put it in an entirely different family and, though it still relies on others to live, it does not need to rely on its mother through a direct feed of nutrients via meat tube. a fetus is attached directly to the mother and, if removed from the presence of the mother, would die.
[QUOTE=axelord157;50006802]Cut the shitty argument. Fetuses are [U][B]LITERALLY[/B][/U] clumps of cells. A Jewish person is a being and thing with functioning organs, an ego, and sense of self-preservation.[/QUOTE]
nah man, fetuses are the same as jews
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50006674]So you've experienced this firsthand, I take it.[/QUOTE]
as someone who was personally a fetus for a short period, yes
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;50006794]Rocks don't become fetuses, but sperm do. Have I been committing genocide all these years? The ability to become something else does not endow something with all the same properties as what it would become.[/QUOTE]
A sperm cannot alone become a fetus, an egg as well cannot do that, they need to be put there actively. This consensual effort (assuming we're not speaking about abortion out of rape, because that is a completely other subject which is a whole other kettle of fish) in turn demands some responsibility from the two people engaged in fucking each other.
[QUOTE=Cone;50006817]as someone who was personally a fetus for a short period, yes[/QUOTE]
then I doubt that now as an adult you would have enjoyed the prospect of being prematurely evicted from your first apartment.
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