[QUOTE=Megafanx13;28114671]They just don't want to have to pay more in taxes. This is a more valid concern among misinformed lower-class families, but it's still there.[/QUOTE]
But they already pay laughably low taxes, what's wrong with a few % higher taxes if you're already that low?
for example, I pay 53% of my income in taxes, and on top of that I have car insurance/mortgage/several other taxes and insurances that are mandatory, yet I don't have a care in the world.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;28114704]Those are important things as well. I believe we also need to stop out-sourcing and bring industry back to America in full force.[/QUOTE]
It's extremely important that we stop out-sourcing and bring industry back here, otherwise we're not going to be experiencing economic growth, and we're going to stay the way we are right now, stagnant.
[QUOTE=R3mix;28114743]It's extremely important that we stop out-sourcing and bring industry back here, otherwise we're not going to be experiencing economic growth, and we're going to stay the way we are right now, stagnant.[/QUOTE]
Indeed.
[QUOTE=xeonmuffin;28113550]yeah well, a country that's only been around for 50 years shouldn't have that much debt.
The UK is worse though, smaller country - ~9 Trillion in debt.[/QUOTE]
are you drunk or something? all debt considered, it's more like a 3rd of that.
less actually. 2.3 Trillion. still alot though.
[QUOTE=Miskav;28114734]But they already pay laughably low taxes, what's wrong with a few % higher taxes if you're already that low?
for example, I pay 53% of my income in taxes, and on top of that I have car insurance/mortgage/several other taxes and insurances that are mandatory, yet I don't have a care in the world.[/QUOTE]
I assume it's because Americans are used to paying low taxes.
[editline]17th February 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zeke129;28114727]And it isn't like you'd be paying only for other people, you're paying for your own care as well.[/QUOTE]
Again, I'm for UHC, I have no problem with it. It's just that the majority does.
the reason there's so much outsourcing is because in reality america ranks very low when it comes to the economy
it can be very difficult to start your own business here
[QUOTE=thisispain;28114814]the reason there's so much outsourcing is because in reality america ranks very low when it comes to the economy
it can be very difficult to start your own business here[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I live in a small town and it seems like small businesses are being forced to close down a lot.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;28114783]I assume it's because Americans are used to paying low taxes.
[editline]17th February 2011[/editline]
Again, I'm for UHC, I have no problem with it. It's just that the majority does.[/QUOTE]
I just find the American mindset so incredibly selfish and short sighted that it's almost inconceivable to me that they'd think that way.
Ah well, I suppose to each their own, if they want their own people to suffer in poverty and agony then my hat's off to them.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;28114439]Fair enough, but that doesn't make socialist ideals bad (or incompatible with capitalist ideals). You said yourself that the alternative ideals are selfish. (Which can be very destructive to a society)[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying (at least here because I have no desire to take on every one of the horde of angry leftists one by one in some kind of mortal kombat like debate) that socialism or ideas derived from it are bad.
What I am however attempting to convey is a frustration with american politicians dishonesty and unwillingness to fully state their intentions.
A "single payer" healthcare system involves the government(the democratically elected representative of the people) taking control of the health care system so that the poor people who have been exploited can pay for their treatment taken from people who make more money than them.
This is tremendously socialist and any half way honest person can see that easily
Yet I'm willing to be that 99% of american politicians will try to skirt their way around that fact and instead start talking about how its really a "market solution" or accuse their detractors of being demagogues or change the subject by instead telling some sappy sob story about some one who couldn't afford a specific procedure.
They'll do anything to avoid naming the word, "Socialism" or correctly identifying the ideas they advocate as a government take over.
They do this because they know that there is a large population of people who upon hearing this would be outraged and either withdraw their support or protest profusely and they know that if they want to accomplish their ends they can't have that.
So while they, and most of their sympathizers know what their really getting at( a socialist inspired system) they pretend thats not what they want because they know that if they were to tell the explicit truth would be outraged.
So without placing judgement on weather either side is right, I'm saying that I wish politicians would state their positions clearly and eplicitly so that they can actually argue their positions, and we can analyze them and make informed decisions. Instead of trying to be vague and play on peoples emotions and assocations with an attitude that amounts to something along the lines of
"but if I told them the full truth then they wouldn't support me."
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;28114783]
Again, I'm for UHC, I have no problem with it. It's just that the majority does.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, fair enough.
I really don't think the majority would be against it if they got actual truthful information on it, instead of the Fox News horseshit. In Canada, hospitals are either private or non-profit (just like in the US) so it isn't a complete government takeover, and private insurance still does exist to cover things not covered by public insurance. (Varies by province)
I think the majority of Americans belive that the government storms the hospitals and insurance companies to take them over, and that isn't the case.
[QUOTE=Miskav;28114841]I just find the American mindset so incredibly selfish and short sighted that it's almost inconceivable to me that they'd think that way.
Ah well, I suppose to each their own, if they want their own people to suffer in poverty and agony then my hat's off to them.[/QUOTE]
There's a friend of mine that told me that he would not be willing to pay $5 more in taxes a year (hypothetically) so that they could have free condoms in hospitals and clinics. His reason? He shouldn't have to pay for anyone's things.
[QUOTE=Novistador;28114844]I'm not saying (at least here because I have no desire to take on every one of the horde of angry leftists one by one in some kind of mortal kombat like debate) that socialism or ideas derived from it are bad.
What I am however attempting to convey is a frustration with american politicians dishonesty and unwillingness to fully state their intentions.
A "single payer" healthcare system involves the government(the democratically elected representative of the people) taking control of the health care system so that the poor people who have been exploited can pay for their treatment taken from people who make more money than them.
This is tremendously socialist and any half way honest person can see that easily
Yet I'm willing to be that 99% of american politicians will try to skirt their way around that fact and instead start talking about how its really a "market solution" or accuse their detractors of being demagogues or change the subject by instead telling some sappy sob story about some one who couldn't afford a specific procedure.
They'll do anything to avoid naming the word, "Socialism" or correctly identifying the ideas they advocate as a government take over.
They do this because they know that there is a large population of people who upon hearing this would be outraged and either withdraw their support or protest profusely and they know that if they want to accomplish their ends they can't have that.
So while they, and most of their sympathizers know what their really getting at( a socialist inspired system) they pretend thats not what they want because they know that if they were to tell the explicit truth would be outraged.
So without placing judgement on weather either side is right, I'm saying that I wish politicians would state their positions clearly and eplicitly so that they can actually argue their positions, and we can analyze them and make informed decisions. Instead of trying to be vague and play on peoples emotions and assocations with an attitude that amounts to something along the lines of
"but if I told them the full truth then they wouldn't support me."[/QUOTE]
Education's pretty socialist too.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;28114879]Yeah, fair enough.
I really don't think the majority would be against it if they got actual truthful information on it, instead of the Fox News horseshit. In Canada, hospitals are either private or non-profit (just like in the US) so it isn't a complete government takeover, and private insurance still does exist to cover things not covered by public insurance. (Varies by province)
I think the majority of Americans believe that the government storms the hospitals and insurance companies to take them over, and that isn't the case.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, unfortunately there's a severe problem with political misinformation in the US.
snip
[QUOTE=faze;28113673]This is by far the worst since the Great Depression, third is the recession in the 80's. The spending issues that Obama has on useless shit, is part of the problem. This bullshit war that we're in, in the Middle East is also the issue.
[editline]17th February 2011[/editline]
It's cute that you think he's not. You're deliciously naive. But then again, most of Facepunch is left-winged.[/QUOTE]
It's cute that you think ANYTHING about your crappy binary political system can be called Socialist. It'd be a distinct improvement if you had something that could be called democratic socialist.
All you have is the Far Right (Republicans) and the Centre-Right ('Democrats')
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;28114887]There's a friend of mine that told me that he would not be willing to pay $5 more in taxes a year (hypothetically) so that they could have free condoms in hospitals and clinics. His reason? He shouldn't have to pay for anyone's things.[/QUOTE]
He sounds like a complete fool.
[QUOTE=Habsburg;28114918]Education's pretty socialist too.[/QUOTE]
Public education anyway.
"Why should I have to pay for some god-damned inner-city kid to go to school herp derp"
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;28114887]There's a friend of mine that told me that he would not be willing to pay $5 more in taxes a year (hypothetically) so that they could have free condoms in hospitals and clinics. His reason? He shouldn't have to pay for anyone's things.[/QUOTE]
Did you then ask him how that sidewalk and street in front of his house got there, or how the water that comes into his house is regulated by strict health and safety standards, or how his internet doesn't go down every 10 seconds?
[QUOTE=Miskav;28114938]He sounds like a complete fool.[/QUOTE]
When it comes to politics, he certainly is.
[QUOTE=faze;28113548]Also, Germany is supporting most of the rest of the fucked up EU nations, so it's only a matter of time until the shit hits the fan there.[/QUOTE]
Hey faze hey hey hey
stop talking about the EU you don't know anything about it
[QUOTE=ShukaidoX;28113458][URL="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110115/ap_on_re_us/us_debt_wars"]US debt passes $14 trillion, Congress weighs caps - Yahoo! News[/URL]
Oooooops!
[URL="http://www.usdebtclock.org/"]U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time[/URL]
Fun-fact, it's physically impossible to count to 1 Trillion (not spend it though!).
$100
[img_thumb]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y205/MJU1983/100_bill.jpg[/img_thumb]
$1,000,000,000 (billion)
[img_thumb]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y205/MJU1983/billion_dollars.jpg[/img_thumb]
$1,000,000,000,000 (trillion)
[img_thumb]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y205/MJU1983/1_trillion.jpg[/img_thumb][/QUOTE]
Well, looks like we better start printing more of it. Might even need to open up a few dozen new money printing facilities to meet demand. [IMG]http://cdn.fpcontent.net/fp/emoot/v.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;28114954]Hey faze hey hey hey
stop talking about the EU you don't know anything about it[/QUOTE]
Americans love telling foreigners how their countries work
Durr, they'll just borrow more money to pay off the debt. Stop the fearmongering.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;28114943]Did you then ask him how that sidewalk and street in front of his house got there, or how the water that comes into his house is regulated by strict health and safety standards, or how his internet doesn't go down every 10 seconds?[/QUOTE]
He said things that would be more important, so it's justified. Apparently condoms don't fall under that category of 'important', so he doesn't want to pay for them. I then said, "Well what if under new UHC legislation condoms are included?" He said that he would not want to do the whole thing, even though he supports UHC, because one minor part of it is something he wouldn't like.
I love that people are complaining about leftists on a international forum.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;28114973]Americans love telling foreigners how their countries work[/QUOTE]
I suppose some of us do.
[editline]17th February 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Habsburg;28115003]I love that people are complaining about leftists on a international forum.[/QUOTE]
Funny thing, that. Especially how people call it 'Liberalpunch', even though the forum is run by a British guy, and Britain has the Conservatives in office right now. So even if you went by where the forum came from you couldn't really say it's inherently Liberal.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;28114998]He said things that would be more important, so it's justified. Apparently condoms don't fall under that category of 'important', so he doesn't want to pay for them. I then said, "Well what if under new UHC legislation condoms are included?" He said that he would not want to do the whole thing, even though he supports UHC, because one minor part of it is something he wouldn't like.[/QUOTE]
If that's the general mindset in your country you're in for a terrible period once those people seize a position of power.
[QUOTE=Miskav;28115041]If that's the general mindset in your country you're in for a terrible period once those people seize a position of power.[/QUOTE]
I've been aware of this for some time. However not nearly enough people share that sentiment who are interested in politics or activism, aren't willing to do anything, or simply don't care on the grounds that "politics/history is boring".
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;28115004]Funny thing, that. Especially how people call it 'Liberalpunch', even though the forum is run by a British guy, and Britain has the Conservatives in office right now. So even if you went by where the forum came from you couldn't really say it's inherently Liberal.[/QUOTE]
Canada has the conservatives in office as well, yet we manage to not ban abortion and gay marriage, keep our healthcare, and not invade countries randomly
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;28115004]I suppose some of us do.
[editline]17th February 2011[/editline]
Funny thing, that. Especially how people call it 'Liberalpunch', even though the forum is run by a British guy, and Britain has the Conservatives in office right now. So even if you went by where the forum came from you couldn't really say it's inherently Liberal.[/QUOTE]
Well I didn't vote for 'em /Monty Python
And I'd guess few of those British Facepunchers of voting age did. (And I bet some of the ones who voted Lib Dems are kicking themselves, I know I am)
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.