• Mexico declares all-out war after drug cartel shoots down Army helicopter
    194 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Sally;47667024]Wouldn't legalizing human trafficking [B]help[/B] this situation?[/QUOTE] What is slavery. Might as well of asked "What is humor".
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;47666986]removing part of their income, however small wouldn't help at all?[/QUOTE] No they'll just push the other forms harder. After pot was legalized in Colorado, the amount of black tar heroin being moved increased ten fold as the cartels had to start pushing it more to make up for lost sales. Now little Jimmy is being peer pressured by his cool friends into smoking tar because that's how they get you into it. Hey, you like pot right? Well this is like hash but 300x better. After you're hooked injections are right around the corner because you're a high chaser now. It's a clever business that exploits the weak willed and ignorant. Legalize all drugs and the cartels will either just open legit drug businesses or redistribute manpower to their other ventures. I'm sure we're all so eager to have a boom in human trafficking related kidnappings. The solution to the cartels is a military one at this point. You're not going to stop Al Qaeda by legalizing opium. Also if you care to dispute them moving into legal drug trade then I'd like to point out that entire shipments of US made guns have just out right "disappeared" and somehow been found in Mexico. Businesses are just as capable of being greedy law breaking pricks as any other entity.
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;47667033]What is slavery.[/QUOTE] I think it was a ironic statement to mock the idea that legalising drugs would help :v:
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;47666933]Wouldn't more legalized drugs help this situation?[/QUOTE] Legalizing them is only going to make the cartels pissed and retaliate in some form, it's not going to dent their profits to the point of endangering them.
the way I see it, any possible way to reduce their income would be a plus. I don't know the numbers on exactly where they get all their money though, i'd need some more info before i know how much it would really end up affecting them [editline]5th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=draugur;47667035]No they'll just push the other forms harder. After pot was legalized in Colorado, the amount of black tar heroin being moved increased ten fold as the cartels had to start pushing it more to make up for lost sales. Now little Jimmy is being peer pressured by his cool friends into smoking tar because that's how they get you into it. Hey, you like pot right? Well this is like hash but 300x better. After you're hooked injections are right around the corner because you're a high chaser now. It's a clever business that exploits the weak willed and ignorant. Legalize all drugs and the cartels will either just open legit drug businesses or redistribute manpower to their other ventures. I'm sure we're all so eager to have a boom in human trafficking related kidnappings. The solution to the cartels is a military one at this point. You're not going to stop Al Qaeda by legalizing opium. Also if you care to dispute them moving into legal drug trade then I'd like to point out that entire shipments of US made guns have just out right "disappeared" and somehow been found in Mexico. Businesses are just as capable of being greedy law breaking pricks as any other entity.[/QUOTE] huh, haven't thought about it like that
[QUOTE=Psychokitten;47667000]Now when they say they used a rocket propelled grenade, do they mean a generic rocket, or are we talking a straight up MANPAD launcher? If the cartels have that kind of hardware, something is very wrong indeed.[/QUOTE] I would assume it's more surplus than anything. RPGs are still RPGs, and a decent shot will absolutely take out a chopper with no problems.
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;47667050]the way I see it, any possible way to reduce their income would be a plus. I don't know the numbers on exactly where they get all their money though, i'd need some more info before i know how much it would really end up affecting them[/QUOTE] Legalized pot in Colorado has had zero effect on lowering crime rate and has caused a massive surge in the sale of "harder" drugs like coke and heroin. It's a business and as history has shown, when a business faces a profit problem, they reinvent the company a bit to make profit again.
[QUOTE=draugur;47667073]Legalized pot in Colorado has had zero effect on lowering crime rate and has caused a massive surge in the sale of "harder" drugs like coke and heroin. It's a business.[/QUOTE] I'd be interested to know whether the surge in the harder drugs are to the dealers or the actual users. which is to say are people actually buying more or do the dealers pressured in some way
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;47667087]I'd be interested to know whether the surge in the harder drugs are to the dealers or the actual users. which is to say are people actually buying more or do the dealers pressured in some way[/QUOTE] Well honestly it doesn't matter where the surge goes because in the end if you're dealing for the cartel, being given 10lbs of tar to move means moving 10lbs of tar, and you're going to meet their profit expectations, end of story, otherwise let's just say you're not going to be employed for long.
[QUOTE=Electrocuter;47667049]Legalizing them is only going to make the cartels pissed and retaliate in some form, it's not going to dent their profits to the point of endangering them.[/QUOTE] Legalizing them in Mexico would only help the cartels. Legalization in the US wont happen to an extent where the cartels would be affected. They dont make their money domestically. These are international profits.
[QUOTE=Code3Response;47667146]Legalizing them in Mexico would only help the cartels. Legalization in the US wont happen to an extent where the cartels would be affected. They dont make their money domestically. These are international profits.[/QUOTE] yeah, i didn't really mean in mexico, more US etc. anyway it was more hypothetical. i'm definitely not against military action either
[QUOTE=Deathtrooper2;47666859]You know there is something wrong when the drug cartels have weaponry comparable to insurgents.[/QUOTE] Because they're literally worse [url]http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/10/isil-vs-mexican-drugcartelsunitedstatesislamophobia.html[/url]
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;47666997]wouldn't them making less money be better?[/QUOTE] Some cartels don't even do drugs anymore. [url]http://www.cnbc.com/id/100373543[/url] [quote]Humberto Moreira, the former governor of Coahuila, claimed recently that the practice has become even more profitable for the cartel than drug-running.[/quote] You need to fight them head-on because the leaders are not only ruthless but resourceful, drug prices going down from legalization? More hard drugs, broadening the operation into more fields. More leniency on drug importation so that the margins on drugs are higher and are then more profitable than human trafficking might be a good idea but then you're "trading crimes" without solving anything.
Nice Addressing the issue from a purely military point of view. The institutional issues and fuck ups this will create, apart from the existing ones.....wonder if Mexico will recover from it.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;47667242]Nice Addressing the issue from a purely military point of view. The institutional issues and fuck ups this will create, apart from the existing ones.....wonder if Mexico will recover from it.[/QUOTE] although i agree in principal, it's really hard to say what else can be done
These fuckers make ISIL look like the Peace Corps, good to hear some actual action being taken against them, though I worry about how effective a full-on campaign will be without any outside aid.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;47667242]Nice Addressing the issue from a purely military point of view. The institutional issues and fuck ups this will create, apart from the existing ones.....wonder if Mexico will recover from it.[/QUOTE] The problem has grown to the point that there is no other actual solution. Sorry but cartels aren't going to sit down for diplomacy peace talks. They're not Mexican rebels, they're a fucking criminal syndicate.
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;47667251]although i agree in principal, it's really hard to say what else can be done[/QUOTE] I don't know man. Look at Colombia. Ok ok, the FARC aren't what they used to be, but there are still remnants in the countryside plus all those self defence civil groups who turned to the dark side and became their own cartels. BUT, if you look at that case, you can see they declined as the state provided and grew in those areas along military force. And WHAT military force. Colombians got all the latest toys from the US plus US intel plus US training and so many incredible stuff. Yet all those military assets weren't enough to completely destroy the drug cartels. There were some cool urban projects involving education and contention to avoid children from getting involved in drugs. Libraries is one of those things I can remember now. Check out the wiki page and see how many guys demobilized from the cartels. circa 60.000. Now that's a lot. Damn lot. Now, this might sound extremely cliche: [B]If they don't just address the main issue -> Economic problems <- then they will just destroy a cartel, and a new one will pop up.[/B] [B][I]I said "might" and not "will", because it's just what happened. Big, lot-of-states encompassing cartels were brought down and more local but way more stronger cartels popped up. [/I][/B] Just think about it for one second, putting yourself in the shoes of any 19-25 year old living there, in those places. You were born poor, you didn't have any education that could bring you more prosperity, your career prospects are utterly awful and chances are, you will die just as poor as you were born. Ok, then there's this dichotomy: either you work in a sweatshop earning a little bit more than what a chinese earns living inside them, or you can join a cartel where your life span is no more than 3-4 years but you can earn 100 times more than working in that sweatshop. Oh, and good luck with retirement....if they don't [I]retire [/I]you first... See? The choice for those guys is easy. And guess who has been facing the same dichotomy? Farmers in south america who saw the price of their crops drop down and had to turn in to coca and other stuff for $$$. It's all $$$ baby, whether we like it or not. [URL="http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1784013-asesinatos-con-sello-narco-en-la-villa-1-11-14-cuatro-jovenes-muertos-dentro-de-un-auto-de-lujo"]And due to the economic downturn of Argentina, the SAME EXACT ISSUE is creeping around here.... [/URL] Villas = The poorest place where one can live. Coincidence that it happens in shit places? I don't think so. [QUOTE]The problem has grown to the point that there is no other actual solution. Sorry but cartels aren't going to sit down for diplomacy peace talks. They're not Mexican rebels, they're a fucking criminal syndicate. [/QUOTE] Same argument since 1990. And that's how we got to where we are today... Jesus fucking christ. You guys who voted me dumb: You think the drug problem in Mexico can be solved via bullets and boots? By giving more power to the State forces? So they can later have the power to disappear 40 students? OK LETS KILL ALL THE MEXICANS. NO POPULATION, NO CARTELS. GENIUS.
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;47666933]Wouldn't more legalized drugs help this situation?[/QUOTE] It's too late, they've diversified away from drugs.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;47667438]I don't know man. Look at Colombia. Ok ok, the FARC aren't what they used to be, but there are still remnants in the countryside plus all those self defence civil groups who turned to the dark side and became their own cartels. BUT, if you look at that case, you can see they declined as the state provided and grew in those areas along military force. And WHAT military force. Colombians got all the latest toys from the US plus US intel plus US training and so many incredible stuff. Yet all those military assets weren't enough to completely destroy the drug cartels. There were some cool urban projects involving education and contention to avoid children from getting involved in drugs. Libraries is one of those things I can remember now. Check out the wiki page and see how many guys demobilized from the cartels. circa 60.000. Now that's a lot. Damn lot. Now, this might sound extremely cliche: [B]If they don't just address the main issue -> Economic problems <- then they will just destroy a cartel, and a new one will pop up.[/B] [B][I]I said "might" and not "will", because it's just what happened. Big, lot-of-states encompassing cartels were brought down and more local but way more stronger cartels popped up. [/I][/B] Just think about it for one second, putting yourself in the shoes of any 19-25 year old living there, in those places. You were born poor, you didn't have any education that could bring you more prosperity, your career prospects are utterly awful and chances are, you will die just as poor as you were born. Ok, then there's this dichotomy: either you work in a sweatshop earning a little bit more than what a chinese earns living inside them, or you can join a cartel where your life span is no more than 3-4 years but you can earn 100 times more than working in that sweatshop. Oh, and good luck with retirement....if they don't [I]retire [/I]you first... See? The choice for those guys is easy. And guess who has been facing the same dichotomy? Farmers in south america who saw the price of their crops drop down and had to turn in to coca and other stuff for $$$. It's all $$$ baby, whether we like it or not. [URL="http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1784013-asesinatos-con-sello-narco-en-la-villa-1-11-14-cuatro-jovenes-muertos-dentro-de-un-auto-de-lujo"]And due to the economic downturn of Argentina, the SAME EXACT ISSUE is creeping around here.... [/URL] Villas = The poorest place where one can live. Coincidence that it happens in shit places? I don't think so. Same argument since 1990. And that's how we got to where we are today... Jesus fucking christ. You guys who voted me dumb: You think the drug problem in Mexico can be solved via bullets and boots? By giving more power to the State forces? So they can later have the power to disappear 40 students? OK LETS KILL ALL THE MEXICANS. NO POPULATION, NO CARTELS. GENIUS.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://s30.postimg.org/ggk0nnqm9/421.png"]I can't believe there's a polandball comic describing that general issue.[/URL]
[QUOTE=Kommodore;47666941]actually about 70% of arms smuggled into Mexico by cartels originate in the US[/QUOTE] Rifles/shotguns/pistols maybe, I highly doubt RPG's are smuggled through the us.
[quote]“The full force of the Mexican state will be felt in the state of Jalisco,” Rubido said on Monday. “Satisfactory results will start to be seen very soon.”[/quote] Uhuh. Sure, bud. I'll believe it when I see it. Which we probably won't, and at this rate, never will. Hate to be a pessimist but it's not going to improve.
[QUOTE=Deathtrooper2;47666859]You know there is something wrong when the drug cartels have weaponry comparable to insurgents.[/QUOTE] Drug cartels usually have better equipment than insurgents...actually what business do you think usually bankrolls insurgents?
I mean as insane as it sounds, I have never understood why there hasn't been a larger U.S. presence in Mexico, with regards to the Mexican cartels. They're just such a huge, entrenched, long-term issue at this point I just don't get how we haven't had a larger presence there. Not saying that it would help or hurt, just curious how we haven't been putting out fires in our backyard while we go "peacekeeping" abroad.
[QUOTE=wraithcat;47668212]Drug cartels usually have better equipment than insurgents...actually what business do you think usually bankrolls insurgents?[/QUOTE] When it comes to Middle Eastern insurgents, it's usually some government, or oil magnate, or even straight from oil sales.
I'm surprised mexico hasn't asked good ol' uncle Sam for help. Hell they could wrap it under terrorism and we'd be glad to throw troops and bombs at the problem
[QUOTE=U-Lander;47668247]I mean as insane as it sounds, I have never understood why there hasn't been a larger U.S. presence in Mexico, with regards to the Mexican cartels. They're just such a huge, entrenched, long-term issue at this point I just don't get how we haven't had a larger presence there. Not saying that it would help or hurt, just curious how we haven't been putting out fires in our backyard while we go "peacekeeping" abroad.[/QUOTE] Because Mexico is a sovereign nation who hasn't asked for our help and the cartels didn't carry out acts of terrorism and then hide behind the Mexican government. Plus I'm not sure it would be wise to justify military action in Mexico on the grounds that we did it in the Middle East. I know I sure as shit wouldn't support military action if that was the argument being given to me.
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;47666933]Wouldn't more legalized drugs help this situation?[/QUOTE] Not at all. The government won't just legalize all drugs forever and have the cartels move on, most of them either have the cartel's fists so far up their ass that they're just a meat puppet, or have a knife to their throat that'll spill crimson the moment they step out of line. And that's just Mexico. Lord Almighty knows what we're going to do about the other cartels.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;47668438]I'm surprised mexico hasn't asked good ol' uncle Sam for help. Hell they could wrap it under terrorism and we'd be glad to throw troops and bombs at the problem[/QUOTE] They're still salty about california being annexed and texas rebelling
[QUOTE=Moustacheman;47668673]Not at all. The government won't just legalize all drugs forever and have the cartels move on, most of them either have the cartel's fists so far up their ass that they're just a meat puppet, or have a knife to their throat that'll spill crimson the moment they step out of line. And that's just Mexico. Lord Almighty knows what we're going to do about the other cartels.[/QUOTE] read the thread dude
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