• Rand Paul Wants To Cut $500 billion By Cutting Defense, Shutting Down Education Dept.
    395 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;27578103]Funny because you're demonstrably wrong with a basic knowledge of US history[/QUOTE] How am I wrong? Children would still be working if it weren't for industrialization can you not agree with this? Guess what the children do in unindustrialized countries? [editline]22nd January 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27578130]Isnt that the definition of a douchebag? but really how do you expect us to see your point if you dont make any? you cant just say competition. That might have worked for you but it will not on normal people[/QUOTE] Explain to me a better system than competition.
[QUOTE=Strider*;27578137]How am I wrong? Children would still be working if it weren't for industrialization can you not agree with this? Guess what the children do in unindustrialized countries? [editline]22nd January 2011[/editline] Explain to me a better system than competition.[/QUOTE] Guess what children would still be doing if it weren't for regulation. You've provided no factual basis whatsoever for your claim that it was higher productivity that helped the problem. That and all your other claims about laissez faire capitalism not being an awful idea that did terrible things to the nation.
[QUOTE=Strider*;27578137]Explain to me a better system than competition.[/QUOTE] The one we have now. with competition but with restrictions (even though I would like a better) you have to show how your system is better not me.
All the explanations I've seen of how a lack of regulation would avoid monopolies and worker abuse in a nutshell: [img]http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/4007/spongecomp.png[/img]
all i see are ayn rand quotations in this thread, what does that have to do with anything relating to education ever
I think our education system needs to be revamped a bit, but I don't think the federal education system should be disregarded. Our military budget holds 2/3 of our national budget, but we pretty much only fight guerrilla forces today. If we cut our budget in terms of fighting a somewhat equal military force, it wouldn't effect us in any way other than clearing some of our deficit. If we had to fight a country like China all of a sudden, we would be able to build up an advanced military pretty damn fast. Countries have done this before, including the United States during WWII.
Strider. You're an idiot. Full out. Look at history. 1800's england. 100 years of the worst labour conditions in the day, and still pretty bad by todays standards. Pure capitalism lead to worker abuse here. 1900-1930's US, relaxed and almost non existent regulation of business lead to some of the worst working conditions period. Even with "industrialization", that doesn't get rid of those jobs. The more advanced the technology gets, they had tons of advances in the day that didn't make working conditions better, it just removed jobs. That's not helping the market either. It seems like you're just ignorant as shit of history. I know 12 history professors and 3 economists and all of them are of vary wide opinions. However, not one of them would try and debate these points in a historical context. Most, if not all credible ones, do not either. This is less a perception of what history presents than what history really presents. Things just got bad. When workers conditions and unions and what not striked together to improve their own conditions, that was needed. That wasn't their greed, that was the need to survive. When regulations were applied, things actually got better, without things getting worse for the economy, only for the profit margin of the companies. I don't believe you're educated. At all.
I understand that corporations are a valuable niche in our economy, but they have too much power in terms of buying politicians and lobbyists. With the power that they have in politics, they will always try to manipulate the political climate to suit their interest, while ignoring the interests of other Americans.
defense? yes school? no still, it wouldnt hurt to put some 14 year old aspie children to work not like theyre doing anything productive with their fucking lives
[QUOTE=Moose;27598766]14 year old aspie children[/QUOTE] so, you
education department? meh, wouldn't notice the difference, seriously, our schools suck!
[QUOTE=Zeke129;27537601]You conservatives say that about national [i]everything[/i] Healthcare, social security, government-run insurance So excuse me if I don't listen to you when you say shit like this[/QUOTE] Nothing leads to tyranny, give the president unlimited power to do everything, progress moves much faster without opposition!
[QUOTE=s0beit;27603523]Nothing leads to tyranny, give the president unlimited power to do everything, progress moves much faster without opposition![/QUOTE] hey, instead of arguing using dumb bullshit like [i]facts[/i] and [i]nuance[/i], I'm just going to hyperbolize everything my opponent says and then attack the cartoonish characterture of his argument that I've created. it'll be swell!
[QUOTE=Jenkem;27522265]Building more hospital wings will fix nothing. Don't bring health care into this. I have a question for you. Who gives you the right to determine whether something is valid or not? People keep swinging this kind of argument around for everything under the sun, but no real explanation of what gives them (or anyone else) the authority to say so.[/QUOTE] We do not dignify absurdities by discussing them. Creationism flies in the face of science, and rejects all evidence, it is not a theory is it a hypothesis that should have crumbled during the renaiscence yet is still survives, much to many peoples chagrin. [editline]23rd January 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Sigma-Lambda;27604183]hey, instead of arguing using dumb bullshit like [i]facts[/i] and [i]nuance[/i], I'm just going to hyperbolize everything my opponent says and then attack the cartoonish characterture of his argument that I've created. it'll be swell![/QUOTE] He does that a lot by the way so prepare for more of it. Also watch out for his straw men, they pack a punch.
[QUOTE=Strider*;27578137]Explain to me a better system than competition.[/QUOTE] Cooperation.
[QUOTE=OrionChronicles;27601014]education department? meh, wouldn't notice the difference, seriously, our schools suck![/QUOTE] Your schools suck and your solution is to abolish the education department instead of repairing it? [i]The brakes in my car suck, it takes me forever to stop! Just take them out entirely![/i]
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;27617246]Cooperation.[/QUOTE] the space race brought about untold innovations in technology which we use today and without whom our world as it is right now wouldn't be possible. The space race was brought about through competition between the United States and the Soviet Union. In the end of the 19th century there was a huge race for innovators to make better technologies in order to secure patents. Our world wouldn't be how it is today without these inventions brought about by competition.
[QUOTE=SM0K3 B4N4N4;27619738]the space race brought about untold innovations in technology which we use today and without whom our world as it is right now wouldn't be possible. The space race was brought about through competition between the United States and the Soviet Union. In the end of the 19th century there was a huge race for innovators to make better technologies in order to secure patents. Our world wouldn't be how it is today without these inventions brought about by competition.[/QUOTE] this post makes absolutely no comparisons to anything involving cooperation
[QUOTE=SM0K3 B4N4N4;27619738]the space race brought about untold innovations in technology which we use today and without whom our world as it is right now wouldn't be possible. The space race was brought about through competition between the United States and the Soviet Union. In the end of the 19th century there was a huge race for innovators to make better technologies in order to secure patents. Our world wouldn't be how it is today without these inventions brought about by competition.[/QUOTE] Competition between countries, but domestically there was a huge cooperative effort in the US to get the technology ready.
[QUOTE=SM0K3 B4N4N4;27619738]the space race brought about untold innovations in technology which we use today and without whom our world as it is right now wouldn't be possible. The space race was brought about through competition between the United States and the Soviet Union. In the end of the 19th century there was a huge race for innovators to make better technologies in order to secure patents. Our world wouldn't be how it is today without these inventions brought about by competition.[/QUOTE] Well think back to labor-unions in early industrial America. Were it not for their cooperative effort of fighting for better working conditions, we might still have the poor business regulations of the 1900-1930s. This is just one example of cooperation.
Okay, okay, okay. I'm gonna go out on a limb here. Industry didn't cause children to work, but it didn't cause them not to, unless if you count the labor laws created as a result of the working conditions. Capitalism is better than communism, but it should be regulated. Both times we've cut regulation, we've ended up in recessions, and last time it became The Great Depression. Corporate competition is good, but there needs to be restrictions so that companies get rich of off good services, rather than at the expense of everyone else.
I'd say that heavily regulated big business and less regulated small business with universal health care/other social programs would be the way to go, at least for America. This is taking into consideration how incredibly difficult it would be for America to ever turn Socialist (i.e. never).
[QUOTE=SM0K3 B4N4N4;27619738]the space race brought about untold innovations in technology which we use today and without whom our world as it is right now wouldn't be possible. The space race was brought about through competition between the United States and the Soviet Union. In the end of the 19th century there was a huge race for innovators to make better technologies in order to secure patents. Our world wouldn't be how it is today without these inventions brought about by competition.[/QUOTE] That could also be used for cooperation.
[QUOTE=Lord_Ragnarok;27620587]Okay, okay, okay. I'm gonna go out on a limb here. Industry didn't cause children to work, but it didn't cause them not to, unless if you count the labor laws created as a result of the working conditions. Capitalism is better than communism, but it should be regulated. Both times we've cut regulation, we've ended up in recessions, and last time it became The Great Depression. Corporate competition is good, but there needs to be restrictions so that companies get rich of off good services, rather than at the expense of everyone else.[/QUOTE] No of course industry didn't cause them not to. It ALLOWED them not to. [editline]24th January 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Megafanx13;27617246]Cooperation.[/QUOTE] Proper cooperation only exists in capitalism through competition.
I'm all for shutting down the edu dept.
[QUOTE=Strider*;27625275]Proper cooperation only exists in capitalism through competition.[/QUOTE] Im sorry but that thats a baseless assumption. There are other ways to get people to work together besides wanting to beat some guy. I really dont think people who are feeding Africans are doing it to beat another African charity. No they are doing it because they dont like dead people.
[QUOTE=Strider*;27625275]Proper cooperation only exists in capitalism through competition.[/QUOTE] Hahaha, oh wow. Yeah, I think I'm done here.
[QUOTE=Strider*;27625275]No of course industry didn't cause them not to. It ALLOWED them not to. [editline]24th January 2011[/editline] Proper cooperation only exists in capitalism through competition.[/QUOTE] It allowed them to? They shouldn't be allowed to. That isn't beneficial. To anyone. Seriously. Education is far more important. Uh, no. No it really doesn't. Thanks for proving we can't take you seriously, at all. Cooperation comes from so many different things, and competition, may be one of them, but it isn't the only way, nor would I say it's the best way. It's like arguing with someone who sees the world without doubting anything he believes.
[QUOTE=Strider*;27575426]Hint, guess what got us out of that. [editline]22nd January 2011[/editline] No I'm suggesting that capitalism was the cause of western prosperity. [editline]22nd January 2011[/editline] Why do you think kids don't have to work today? (hint, not legislation) Because of the increased productivity that industrialization brought about and allowed their parents to produce more without them. Do you think kids did not work before the industrial revolution?[/QUOTE] The issue is, the more regulation you put on capitalism, the less "pure" it becomes. And that basically kills the idea of a true free market.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;27626407]It allowed them to? They shouldn't be allowed to. That isn't beneficial. To anyone. Seriously. Education is far more important. Uh, no. No it really doesn't. Thanks for proving we can't take you seriously, at all. Cooperation comes from so many different things, and competition, may be one of them, but it isn't the only way, nor would I say it's the best way. It's like arguing with someone who sees the world without doubting anything he believes.[/QUOTE] He actually makes a good point about allowing. He's trying to make the argument that industry is good, which it is, but he's also trying to make the argument that corporations should just be completely trusted to make ethical decisions on their own, all the time, which they won't. Today, corporations give American jobs to people over seas and illegal immigrants, just so they don't have to pay higher wages. Now, while it is illegal to hire an illegal immigrant, we do not enforce that law by any stretch, which we need to if we don't want them here. If anything is "taking our jobs," it's that. I think Strider is under the impression that just because you think there should be regulations, you must think that capitalism and industry is bad altogether and should be eliminated. I doubt any of us think we get rid of it though, because that would be a ludicrous decision. This is the problem with interpreting opinions today that conservatives are the guilty for at the moment; if one person thinks a little to the other end of the spectrum, a lot f people tend to put them on the extreme other end of the spectrum. It's like if I called everyone who was against the assault rifle ban an anarchist. I am a capitalist, but people often call me a socialist because I support some regulations for big businesses. I want big business to exist because they manufacture my computer, my books and my food, but I think there should be some limitations. Extremes are always bad. Even with capitalist beliefs. [editline]24th January 2011[/editline] Also, if you create an economic environment where corruption is allowed, you almost have to be corrupt in order to be able to compete with the people who play dirty.
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