ISIS burns 2 Turkish soldiers alive, releases video online
118 replies, posted
[QUOTE=TheTalon;51571778]These people aren't even people. Fuck'em[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but this has been part of humanity about as long as humanity's been around.
This is people at their worst.
People at their worst who have convinced themselves they are the best for their people.
[QUOTE=Recurracy;51572250]People at their worst who have convinced themselves they are the best for their people.[/QUOTE]
Yeah well morals are an odd thing.
They believe they're doing the right thing - they genuinely do.
Yeah that's not okay.
Fucking bizarre imagining some terrorist sitting down to edit this like a professional.
[QUOTE=BelatedGamer;51572269]Yeah that's not okay.
Fucking bizarre imagining some terrorist sitting down to edit this like a professional.[/QUOTE]
At the end of the day they're still people. Twisted based on our standards, but still people. Believe it or not they have plenty of people doing normal things like programming, cooking and so on.
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51572274]At the end of the day they're still people. Twisted based on our standards, but still people. Believe it or not they have plenty of people doing normal things like programming, cooking and so on.[/QUOTE]
[B]Holy shit[/B] terrorists on the other side of the world also have to, like, eat food and do other real person stuff?
If i can catch one of these fucking savages,i will torture them until near death,heal them,then do it again over and over.
So they will taste the hell both on this world and afterlife.
Well, now we have justification to drone strike ISIS, while we point and laugh from behind a screen.
[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;51572211]Islam basically makes out anyone who doesn't submit to allah as subhuman fodder to be annexed into islam. Mixed in with the fetishisation of warfare and martyrdom, and you can imagine how pretty soon people would be one upping each other on how much good work they're doing for Allah by destroying his enemies in the most grotesque way possible.
Remember, nobody outside of some really twisted or confused people think they're actually doing bad things, and none would foster a 1500 year legacy of followers. Hitler thought he was serving his duty to humanity after all. All one really needs to give rise to the real evil that lurks in every single person on earth is to provide a structure of absolutist ideology that enables it, and makes one feel [I]virtuous [/I]in doing it. And nothing describes traditional/fundimental islam better than a religious structure of morality to justify horrible acts in the name of a higher power, and the relinquishing of morale responsibility that allows you.
Russian intellectuals, ever on point.[/QUOTE]
IS are killing muslims. Murder is wrong in Islam. Killing innocents is wrong in Islam. Killing innocent Muslims is probably one of the lease Islamic things they could do. IS kill people who have surrendered which is also against islam. IS kill those who do not convert ("There is no compulsion in religion. The right way has become distinct from error"), which is also against islam.
I'm not keen on Islam or any religion but you seem to just be spouting anti-islam memes rather than looking into it for yourself. The IS mainly killing muslims thing alone makes religion a shakey explanation for what they're doing.
Its a socio economic thing, if there weren't Islam in that region then some other religion or cause would be used by these people to justify their terror.
[QUOTE=Zufeng;51572289]If i can catch one of these fucking savages,i will torture them until near death,heal them,then do it again over and over.
So they will taste the hell both on this world and afterlife.[/QUOTE]
With all that edge you're gona cut yourself before you even get to see a terrorist
[QUOTE=BelatedGamer;51572277][B]Holy shit[/B] terrorists on the other side of the world also have to, like, eat food and do other real person stuff?[/QUOTE]
You're still amazed by that?
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51572328]
You're still amazed by that?[/QUOTE]
Probably about as amazed as you'll be once you learn to identify obvious sarcasm
Maybe -- just maybe -- you should give people the benefit of the doubt before immediately assuming they're brain damaged
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51572328]With all that edge you're gona cut yourself before you even get to see a terrorist[/QUOTE]
Okay that's pretty funny
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51572325]IS are killing muslims. Murder is wrong in Islam. Killing innocents is wrong in Islam. Killing innocent Muslims is probably one of the lease Islamic things they could do. IS kill people who have surrendered which is also against islam. IS kill those who do not convert ("There is no compulsion in religion. The right way has become distinct from error"), which is also against islam.
I'm not keen on Islam or any religion but you seem to just be spouting anti-islam memes rather than looking into it for yourself. The IS mainly killing muslims thing alone makes religion a shakey explanation for what they're doing.
[B]Its a socio economic thing, if there weren't Islam in that region then some other religion or cause would be used by these people to justify their terror[/B].[/QUOTE]
Then why aren't the kurds burning people alive? Why do the christians stuck in the crossfire not band together and march as a christian state to retake the holy land, burning, torturing and raping any non christians who stand in their way? Why did the afghani buddhists not commit such heinous acts when threatened in the middle ages? Are they not stuck in the same place and are under the same conditions? If anything, Islamic fighters are in the position of power in that place, and in some perverse way, the kurds, christians, jews and other religious minorities have more justification for this kind of barbarism, such a showing of force being possibly the only way out from under the boot of ISIS. But they don't, do they?
Of all the 550+ suicide attacks in 2015, 2 were not Islamic extremists. The remaining two being some communist cretins. And 90ish% of the causualties of islamic terror are other muslims.
This is endemic to Islam.
Islam is a machine designed by Muhammad to keep his band of warriors together, motivated and under his control in the desert in 650. The concept of Jihad and Martyrdom came to him conveniently after they lost their first fledgling battle with a Meccan caravan. And allah endorsing being able to have sex with your slave, despite forbidding extramarital sex, came to him as someone walked in on him raping a slave. Islam forbids buying slaves, but endorses capturing slaves as spoils of war. It's an expansionist religion with built in political structures to produce an islamic state which serves to uphold it's own ideological establishment. It's a tool of war and control that glorifies spending your life in war in service of Allah, and asserts that anyone who leaves Islam should be killed. [I]Prove me wrong.[/I]
No religion should have to [I]scare[/I] people into staying with it. A relgion should appeal to one's sense of justness, fairness and enlightenment, and survive based on it's effectiveness of producing a functional and desirable society. The fact that islam prescribes death for those that question it should tell you of it's nature. There's no such thing as morale relativism, religions are fundamentally sets of ideas and maps of principals for behaving in the world, and are sets of ideas and behaviors that enforce the core tenants of those religions. Religions are not equal, and none exist in a vacuum. The core principals of each religion manifest in its follower's actions. Like it or not, western post lutharian christianity has produced western civilization, with it's emphasis on truth, constructive and cooperative behavior and Kantian morality. Islam produces war and inhuman acts, which evidence shows is endemic to any fundamentalist islamic society.
[QUOTE=paul simon;51572242]I'm sorry to disappoint you, but this has been part of humanity about as long as humanity's been around.
This is people at their worst.[/QUOTE]
And more importantly, this is what every person on earth is capable of. Everyone likes to think that if they were growing up in nazi germany, they'd be the hero ushering the persecuted out of the fires of germany, but that just isn't true. Anyone can be a nazi, anyone can be an ISIS militant. The only thing keeping you out of that hole is the structures of morality and the principals you build your identity on.
And if you don't believe me, go read Ordinary Men, a book about a few regular joe police officers who slowly but surely became SS level monsters, with countless bodies on their hands. And not through any coercion or threats of death from the German military, hell no. Just one step at a time.
There's parts where they know what they're doing, and they openly weep and are violently ill, sheerly from the knowledge of what they've done, but they [I]keep getting worse[/I] as time goes on. It's hard to imagine being the sort of person who would shoot lines of prisoners in the back of the head, men, women, children and pregnent women alike, but if people who grew up in Bismark's germany are capable of it, so are you, and so am I.
Never forget that.
[QUOTE=BelatedGamer;51572340]Probably about as amazed as you'll be once you [b]learn to identify obvious sarcasm[/b][/QUOTE]
I hope you can spot the irony in this
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51572328]With all that edge you're gona cut yourself before you even get to see a terrorist
[/QUOTE]
Man,that was fucking infuriating,i just write it purely by anger,not trying to be edgy.
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51572350]I hope you can spot the irony in this[/QUOTE]
I'm sure. Looked more like condescension to me, especially after you felt the need to explain that bad people also do people things.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51572325]IS are killing muslims. Murder is wrong in Islam. Killing innocents is wrong in Islam. Killing innocent Muslims is probably one of the lease Islamic things they could do. IS kill people who have surrendered which is also against islam. IS kill those who do not convert ("There is no compulsion in religion. The right way has become distinct from error"), which is also against islam.
I'm not keen on Islam or any religion but you seem to just be spouting anti-islam memes rather than looking into it for yourself. The IS mainly killing muslims thing alone makes religion a shakey explanation for what they're doing.[/QUOTE]
The bitch with this line of thinking -- and I don't necessarily disagree with you -- is that Islam is sufficiently vague enough to allow just about anything, like pretty much every religion that I can think of.
A big part of the problem with Islam is that it's been mostly centered in one region of the world for the last few hundred years, a region where two other conflicting religions had already set up shop. There's been so much war and strife that many facets of Islam simply haven't evolved past violent conflict like Christianity has.
After this would anyone blame Turkey for castrating captured ISIS fighters?
[QUOTE=RoboChimp;51572365]After this would anyone blame Turkey for castrating captured ISIS fighters?[/QUOTE]
I would, yeah
I don't know what would make me support mass castration but this still isn't it
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51572325]IS are killing muslims. Murder is wrong in Islam. Killing innocents is wrong in Islam. Killing innocent Muslims is probably one of the lease Islamic things they could do. IS kill people who have surrendered which is also against islam. IS kill those who do not convert ("There is no compulsion in religion. The right way has become distinct from error"), which is also against islam.
I'm not keen on Islam or any religion but you seem to just be spouting anti-islam memes rather than looking into it for yourself. The IS mainly killing muslims thing alone makes religion a shakey explanation for what they're doing.
Its a socio economic thing, if there weren't Islam in that region then some other religion or cause would be used by these people to justify their terror.[/QUOTE]
That argument has never really convinced me ever since ive seen layovers of the spread of islam and application of terror bombings. The only group of people having relatively similar correlation are anarcho communists who openly brag about terror bombings etc.
Also the fact that a sizable chunk of the religious leaders of islam say stuff like suicide bombing or sacrificing your life for the spread/defence of islam is a way to ablate your sins... you know, deus vult kind of stuff etc.
[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;51572347]Then why aren't the kurds burning people alive?[/quote]
Kurds are doing terror attacks against civilians in Turkey their motivation is ethnic/nationalistic.
[quote]Why do the christians stuck in the crossfire not band together and march as a christian state to retake the holy land, burning, torturing and raping any non christians who stand in their way?[/quote]
We did at one time, when our socio economic situation was different.
[quote]Why did the afghani buddhists not commit such heinous acts when threatened in the middle ages? Are they not stuck in the same place and are under the same conditions?[/quote]
Because they were quite prosperous and stable due to the silk road ie their socio economic situation was different.
[quote]If anything, Islamic fighters are in the position of power in that place, and in some perverse way, the kurds, christians, jews and other religious minorities have more justification for this kind of barbarism. But they don't, do they?[/quote] huh
[quote]Of all the 550+ suicide attacks in 2015, 2 were not Islamic extremists. The remaining two being some communist cretins.[/quote] Can't deny this but most poor shitty areas atm are muslim. An example of christians in similar situation doing shitty things is Joseph #Kony
[quote]nd 90ish% of the causualties of islamic terror are other muslims. This is endemic to Islam.[/quote] Implying its not a religious thing. Glad we agree.
[quote]Islam is a machine designed by Muhammad to keep his band of warriors together, motivated and under his control in the desert in 650. The concept of Jihad and Martyrdom came to him conveniently after they lost their first fledgling battle with a Meccan caravan. It forbids buying slaves, but endorses capturing slaves as spoils of war. It's an expansionist religion with built in political structures to produce an islamic state which serves to uphold it's own ideological establishment. It's a tool of war and control that glorifies spending your life in war in service of Allah, and asserts that anyone who leaves Islam should be killed.[/quote]
I agree about it being a tool to control people, like christianity was at the time and still, at its core, is.
At the time the above practices (killing apostates and capturing slaves) were the norm. Today they are not the norm. My muslim work mate doesn't kill her husband for eating pork and drinking. People in shitty places will do shitty things and blame their religion. Buddhists in Burma are commiting atrocities, is that a religious thing? no. Its an ethnic thing.
[quote]No religion should have to [I]scare[/I] people into staying with it. That alone should tell you of it's nature. There's no such thing as morale relitivism, religions are fundimentally sets of ideas and maps of principals for behaving in the world, and are sets of ideas and behaviors that enforce the core tenants of those religions.[/quote]
I agree. I'm certainly not pro religion. But scaring people into staying in the religion or giving away their shit to the church is a common thing in most modern religions.
[quote]
Religions are not equal, and none exist in a vacuum. The core principals of each religion manifest in its follower's actions. Like it or not, western post lutharian christianity has produced western civilisation, with it's emphisis on truth, constructive and cooperative behavior and Kantian morality.[/quote]
Islamic culture at its height (specifically the arab and persian world in the middle ages) had those values. They were doing well, resources were plentiful and everyone benefited from cooperation. It was stable and people could trust each other. Sadly since then the "Islamic world" has been pushed down, exploited and turned against itself. Ethnic tensions exploited to sew disunity to removal europes biggest rival. In those conditions people can't work together, they go tribal, they fight over resources and land and paranoia means people get xenophobic and they fear change, specifically people questioning beliefs and their establishment. Like the soviets and nazis purged political and religious thinkers (because they were scared of people questioning their authority) IS do the same.
[quote]
Islam produces war and inhuman acts endemic to any fundamentalist islamic society.[/QUOTE]
I argue war, fundamentalism and inhuman acts would have happened without Islam being present.
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51572404]That argument has never really convinced me ever since ive seen layovers of the spread of islam and application of terror bombings. The only group of people having relatively similar correlation are [B]anarcho communists who openly brag about terror bombings etc.[/B]
Also the fact that a sizable chunk of the religious leaders of islam say stuff like suicide bombing or sacrificing your life for the spread/defence of islam is a way to ablate your sins... you know, deus vult kind of stuff etc.[/QUOTE]
And communism by nature relives the individual of the burden of morality, and sets it on the shoulders of the ideology of the state.
Seems familiar, don't it?
This isn't just religious fanaticism anymore.
This is sadistic, anarchistic psychopathy done for their own amusement. I feel like some of them probably don't give a shit about the religion part of the group, they just want an excuse to be antisocial omnicidal maniacs.
[QUOTE=RoboChimp;51572365]After this would anyone blame Turkey for castrating captured ISIS fighters?[/QUOTE]
Why castration? Just take them to a court, accuse them of being part of an extremist genocidal terrorist organization, and hang them.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51572408]Kurds are doing terror attacks against civilians in Turkey their motivation is ethnic/nationalistic.[/QUOTE]
Those are individual groups of kurds comitting terror acts for kurdish sovreignty in the area, and believing in such things is not a defining characteristic of being a kurd. That is a false equivalency.
[QUOTE]We did at one time, when our socio economic situation was different.[/QUOTE]
When and how? I cant' adress this until you give specifics.
And if you mean the crusades, that's a complicated issue. There is the argument that it was justified retalliation to Islamic skirmishes on the boarders of europe, and also the argument that this was the same pattern of behaviour that Islam is designed to foster. Also what the hell do you mean "socio economic situation"? Like, fuedal, absolute monarchies? The peasants had no morale say in the state's action at that time, i'm not sure that's a fair argument to compare to today's west. In fact i'm going to say that's basically an incomparable model to judge us on today with. The conditions are entirely different.
And even if they weren't, saying "But we did this 1000 years ago!" does not morally pardon islamic fundimentalists burning people alive [I]now.[/I]
[QUOTE]Because they were quite prosperous and stable due to the silk road ie their socio economic situation was different.[/QUOTE]
So when they were wiped out by the islamic expansion into Afghanista, they just went "oh we have silk and a functioning society, we've had a good run, have fun taking over".
More importantly that doesn't address the other examples i gave, who are in identical but [I]worse[/I] conditions than the Muslims who are burning people alive for shits 'n giggles. You ignored that and you know it. If you're right you wouldn't have to run away from reality.
[QUOTE]huh[/QUOTE]
I'm saying that non muslims are under the boot of Islamic culture in that area. They have police that go around and arrest you for non Islamic behaviour, even if you're a chrisitan. They tax you heavily for being non muslim, and genuinely punch down at all other religions. You're making the argument that it's sheerly socio economic stresses and factors that are causing these people to act like this, but if that were true, and if the core ideas and principals of these religions were all roughly equal, the non muslims would have more of a reason to act like this, [I]but they dont.[/I]
[QUOTE]Can't deny this but most poor shitty areas atm are muslim. An example of christians in similar situation doing shitty things is Joseph #Kony[/QUOTE]
Then why isn't there a movement in india of downtrodden poverty striken Sikh and Hindu people trying to establish a religiously dominated state, raping and murdering all in their way?
Do you really believe that being poor makes you think "well raping and killing is ok now because that's the only way i see to move upwards in the world, let's get the kerosene out then"? That's a really awful way to view people. Hobbes would look at that and go "dude, no."
Also what's stopping a shitty religion producing a shitty culture that causes people to behave in shitty ways, causing a shitty place to be? Are you implying that those parts are just [I]destined[/I] to be shitty forever, and those poor downtrodden people are just trapped there, with no way to escape or improve it?
Fuck no. That implies they're devoid of agency and are basically violent animals, acting in accordance with their static surroundings they have no capacity to change.
If you're using the crusades as a morale ballast to hold us back, then you have to recognize that [I]we got better, [/I]which destroys that argument entirely.
[QUOTE]Implying its not a religious thing. Glad we agree.
[/QUOTE]
No, you don't understand. It's sects of Islamists bombing [I]other[/I] sects of Islam for not being the right cannon of Islam. It's 100% religiously motivated. If it wasn't religiously motivated, why the fuck don't other people do it? Why are there no black panther suicide bombings or anarcho capitolists blowing up goverment buildings? The reasoning doesn't work.
[QUOTE]I agree about it being a tool to control people, like christianity was at the time and still, at its core, is.
At the time the above practices (killing apostates and capturing slaves) were the norm. Today they are not the norm. My muslim work mate doesn't kill her husband for eating pork and drinking. People in shitty places will do shitty things and blame their religion. Buddhists in Burma are commiting atrocities, [B]is that a religious thing? no. Its an ethnic thing.[/B][/QUOTE]
So certain ethnicities or people are endemically more prone to inhuman violence? That's like [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mGvZXvRNLs"]arguing against enviromental determanism by saying that some races are just intrinsically better than other[/URL]s. That's fuckin' horrible. The feedback isn't adhering to your ideas because you don't understand your ideas well enough to represent them fully.
And presuming that was a horrible accident on your part and doesn't represent your views, those ideas are still built into Islam. If i remember correctly a pew study found that 30% of Muslims in the west still support death to appostates, with 60-80% in other parts of the world. I don't care about who your friend really is because that doesn't represent the fully body of Islam. And if they eat pork and drink, those are all sins in Islam. So saying "my friend is a self professed muslim even though they don't really adhere to islam that much, therefore islam isn't like that" is just not an argument. Your experience does not override reality. In fact, your experience contradicts your own argument, based on your experience.
[QUOTE]I agree. I'm certainly not pro religion. But scaring people into staying in the religion or giving away their shit to the church is a common thing in most modern religions.[/QUOTE]
Prove it.
To stop being a jew, you just say "i'm not a jew anymore", and everyone in the church goes "oh ok, later then." I cannot think of a modern religion that's widely practiced that literally demmands an immidiate and physical death for those that leave or question it, enacted by a religious body. And if so, where's the public hangings for apostates at the vatican?
[QUOTE]
Islamic culture at its height (specifically the arab and persian world in the middle ages) had those values. They were doing well, resources were plentiful and everyone benefited from cooperation. It was stable and people could trust each other. Sadly since then the "Islamic world" has been pushed down, exploited and turned against itself. Ethnic tensions exploited to sew disunity to removal europes biggest rival. In those conditions people can't work together, they go tribal, they fight over resources and land and paranoia means people get xenophobic and they fear change, specifically people questioning beliefs and their establishment. Like the soviets and nazis purged political and religious thinkers (because they were scared of people questioning their authority) IS do the same.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, islamic culture was at it's height when it was most like Western culture, and immidiately caved in on itself when it returned to it's roots. That was basically my argument, so thanks.
[QUOTE]I argue war, fundamentalism and inhuman acts would have happened without Islam being present.
[/QUOTE]
Where did you argue that? All i'm seeing is "i say this." Come on man.
Also i'm going to bed, i'll catch up on this in the morning
I remember almost a year ago there was a thread about ISIS and I made a post calling them barbaric dogs, subhumans, not human, or something along the lines.
Some people who replied chastised me, and said that what I said was basically an unhealthy mindset as even though they're evil they're humans and should be treated as such
These people do not deserve to be treated as humans, these people deserve the most painful death.
If subhuman fucks like these do this to people, why should they be treated as humans? Fuck all of them, and I hope they get a nice bomb to the face.
[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;51572460]Yeah, islamic culture was at it's height when it was most like Western culture, and immidiately caved in on itself when it returned to it's roots. That was basically my argument, so thanks.[/QUOTE]
What? During the golden age of the Arab world European lords were busy fighting against one another, it was basically the opposite of what happens today. Western culture back then was nothing like it is now, if it returned to its roots it would be pretty damn awful as well.
[QUOTE=SonicHitman;51572494]
These people do not deserve to be treated as humans, these people deserve the most painful death.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah they probably do deserve just about the worst death imaginable, but I'd feel a hell of a lot safer if it wasn't state mandated by my government or anyone else's.
Seriously dude these people are fucks but when a government starts declaring any group of people subhuman, well, it's just about the most frightening thing that can happen. People have done it in the past, and it hasn't ended well.
Hell, that's exactly the thing that fundamentalists like this think;
"These people are subhuman trash, they deserve the most painful death possible."
A bit of a slippery slope, I admit, but once a nation begins denying anyone basic human rights there's no telling where it'll stop.
[QUOTE=SonicHitman;51572494]I remember almost a year ago there was a thread about ISIS and I made a post calling them barbaric dogs, subhumans, not human, or something along the lines.
Some people who replied chastised me, and said that what I said was basically an unhealthy mindset as even though they're evil they're humans and should be treated as such
These people do not deserve to be treated as humans, these people deserve the most painful death.
If subhuman fucks like these do this to people, why should they be treated as humans? Fuck all of them, and I hope they get a nice bomb to the face.[/QUOTE]
You must have a pretty idealistic view of humans if you believe you'd have not to be one to do shit like this. History is full of atrocities like this one.
Saw the video yesterday, really fucked with my sleep this morning.. couldn't stop thinking about it
what i do not get is why does this look like it was edited by professionals?
i've read some conspiracy theories about this.
[url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2865745/Has-EXACT-location-infamous-ISIS-beheading-video-pinpointed-Forensic-analysis-filmed-Syrian-soldier-murders-breaks-filmed-long-took-cost-make.html[/url]
[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;51572460]Those are individual groups of kurds comitting terror acts for kurdish sovreignty in the area, and believing in such things is not a defining characteristic of being a kurd. That is a false equivalency.
[/quote]
Certainly didn't say that was a defining characteristic of being a kurd. Please do not try to dismiss my arguement with such a strawman. My point is people do bad things for a number of reasons, those kurds (not all kurds but that group of kurds) are doing awful things with nationalism (they want their own nation) as their justification. Ethnicity (they advocate for a kurd state) also plays a role as does politics (the PKK)
[quote]
When and how? I cant' adress this until you give specifics.
[/quote]
Late romans, dark ages, middle ages. Religion has been a claimed motivation for other none holy land stuff also. The spanish inquisition along with backlash and persecution of "heretics", I argue that religion (at the time part of the establishment) was used to justify these acts when the true motivation (by those organising the attacks) was to remove a threat to power. Catholics vs protestants - political and tribal. Spanish civil war, old establishment (catholic church being a huge part) fighting back against the new order (republicanism, liberalism and socialism).
The church might have been involved in all of these conflicts but mainly because they were part of the establishment, without the church (but with the establishment remaining) or with a different religion it would have happened the same. There would be a conflict between old and new or a conflict over resources or land or power and some ideology (religion, politics etc) would be picked as a unifier.
[quote]
And if you mean the crusades, that's a complicated issue. There is the argument that it was justified retalliation to Islamic skirmishes on the boarders of europe, and also the argument that this was the same pattern of behaviour that Islam is designed to foster. Also what the hell do you mean "socio economic situation"? Like, fuedal, absolute monarchies? The peasants had no morale say in the state's action at that time, i'm not sure that's a fair argument to compare to today's west. In fact i'm going to say that's basically an incomparable model to judge us on today with. The conditions are entirely different.[/quote]
If that were the case why wasn't it done sooner?
The pope called the crusade to secure his power (he had rivals) and as a political play to regain favour with the east romans.
Socio economic situation - an umbrella term I used to cover none religious factors like poverty, hunger, stability, trade, society as a whole. Europe was divided and fighting amongst itself, the pope had rivals, lots of nobels were seeking a way to make a name for themselves. If christianity weren't present it would be the same but instead of a pope it would be some other political leader, europe would still be divided and that leader would seek to unite his followers and get rid of his rivals.
[quote]
And even if they weren't, saying "But we did this 1000 years ago!" does not morally pardon islamic fundimentalists burning people alive [I]now.[/I]
[/quote]
Again you put words in my mouth. Stop doing that.
I do no morally pardon islamic fundimentalists burning people alive. I'm saying they would have done the same thing if they weren't islamic. They would pick a different religion or do it for ethnicity (in truth fight over resources) or for political reasons (again probably resources)
[quote]
So when they were wiped out by the islamic expansion into Afghanista, they just went "oh we have silk and a functioning society, we've had a good run, have fun taking over".
[/quote]
They mostly converted. At the time islam was huge it was beneficial to convert, gain favour with muslim merchants. Islam didn't convert purely by the sword, many merchants converted for economic reasons and it spread that way. Once merchants turn then merchant settlements (on the silk roads and in ports) also would convert.
[quote]
More importantly that doesn't address the other examples i gave, who are in identical but [I]worse[/I] conditions than the Muslims who are burning people alive for shits 'n giggles. You ignored that and you know it. If you're right you wouldn't have to run away from reality.[/quote]
Only only mentioned afhani buddhists, which other examples did you provide?
Before you put them here ignore their religion for a moment and look at conflicts in general. Most wars and conflicts can be reduced to a fight over resources, was there a fight over resources and was religion being used as a justification rather than legitimately being the cause?
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I'm saying that non muslims are under the boot of Islamic culture in that area. They have police that go around and arrest you for non Islamic behaviour, even if you're a chrisitan. They tax you heavily for being non muslim, and genuinely punch down at all other religions. You're making the argument that it's sheerly socio economic stresses and factors that are causing these people to act like this, but if that were true, and if the core ideas and principals of these religions were all roughly equal, the non muslims would have more of a reason to act like this, [I]but they dont.[/I]
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Lebanon is next to syria and to my knowledge theres no sin tax, muslims and christians were getting on fine till all this IS silliness started.
The reason for Jizya (and any "religious" sin tax) is they make it inconvenient to be a none muslim so the you have an economic incentive to convert thus making it easier for the establishment to influence and control you. If it weren't islam it would be Christianity or some other religion, maybe no religion at all.
See its not the religion saying "you must be an ass" its a leader seeing a threat to his authority and trying to minimise/remove that threat.
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Then why isn't there a movement in india of downtrodden poverty striken Sikh and Hindu people trying to establish a religiously dominated state, raping and murdering all in their way?
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There is a hindu supremacy movement.
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Do you really believe that being poor makes you think "well raping and killing is ok now because that's the only way i see to move upwards in the world, let's get the kerosene out then"? That's a really awful way to view people. Hobbes would look at that and go "dude, no."
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No its not ok. Please you must stop with this. Seriously if thats the message you got then you have a deficiency.
Also you complain about religious tax. Hobbes would be ok with that if it meant stability, I'm not ok with it because I think secular society (with religion being a personal matter) is best.
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Also what's stopping a shitty religion producing a shitty culture that causes people to behave in shitty ways, causing a shitty place to be? Are you implying that those parts are just [I]destined[/I] to be shitty forever, and those poor downtrodden people are just trapped there, with no way to escape or improve it?
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No they used to be prosperous and stable. I hope they can be that way again. Global warming might make it difficult but I believe that they, and we will mutually benefit.
[quote]Fuck no. That implies they're devoid of agency and are basically violent animals, acting in accordance with their static surroundings they have no capacity to change.
If you're using the crusades as a morale ballast to hold us back, then you have to recognize that [I]we got better, [/I]which destroys that argument entirely.
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Are not all violent animals acting in accordance with out (non-static) surroundings?
We have a shortage of food, we try and get food, if that means violence to aquire that food then we use violence.
We have need for agency and control over our lives, if that is taken from us we become unhappy, if someone then comes along and says "follow me I'll help you assert yourself and regain control over your life" we tend to follow.
Its not religious behaviour, its human behaviour. Sure we rise above it, we solve things peacefully, we cooperate we make sacrifices for our communities and the common good but ultimately we have drives and needs and generally/historically when resources get scarce violence occurs.
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No, you don't understand. It's sects of Islamists bombing [I]other[/I] sects of Islam for not being the right cannon of Islam. It's 100% religiously motivated. If it wasn't religiously motivated, why the fuck don't other people do it? Why are there no black panther suicide bombings or anarcho capitolists blowing up goverment buildings? The reasoning doesn't work.
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They're not bombing others for the wrong "cannon" of islam. "Sunni" islamists are bombing innocent Sunnis for political reasons, they seek to rule through terror and subdue the populace who would otherwise not recognise their authority.
Black panthers and anarcho capitalists mostly come from America which is far more stable than the middle east and parts of africa. Identity also plays into this.
Look at this the other way. If islam was the problem why isn't my Muslim work mate trying to kill me?
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So certain ethnicities or people are endemically more prone to inhuman violence? That's like [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mGvZXvRNLs"]arguing against enviromental determanism by saying that some races are just intrinsically better than other[/URL]s. That's fuckin' horrible. The feedback isn't adhering to your ideas because you don't understand your ideas well enough to represent them fully.
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No you fool, I don't think certain ethnicities are inherently more violent! You must learn to argue correctly. You will fail your first year philosophy if this is how you construct arguements.
Different situations drive people to act differently. If people feel threatened they are more likely to be violent. Violence is always more common when resources are more scarce.
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And presuming that was a horrible accident on your part and doesn't represent your views, those ideas are still built into Islam. If i remember correctly a pew study found that 30% of Muslims in the west still support death to appostates, with 60-80% in other parts of the world. I don't care about who your friend really is because that doesn't represent the fully body of Islam. And if they eat pork and drink, those are all sins in Islam. So saying "my friend is a self professed muslim even though they don't really adhere to islam that much, therefore islam isn't like that" is just not an argument.
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You didn't even read my post, that explains a lot. She is a muslim, her husband is the one who eats pork.
If you're not going to read my post you aren't in any position to reply tbh.
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Prove it.
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[quote=christianity]You will go to hell and burn forever[/quote]
[quote=buddhism]you will be trapped forever being reincarnated as shitty animals[/quote]
[quote=judaeism]You will feel shame forever[/quote]
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To stop being a jew, you just say "i'm not a jew anymore", and everyone in the church goes "oh ok, later then." I cannot think of a modern religion that's widely practiced that literally demmands an immidiate and physical death for those that leave or question it, enacted by a religious body. And if so, where's the public hangings for apostates at the vatican?
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A muslim can claim they're not a muslim anymore. Its the society they live in which may react. badly.
In the UK it might be just fine or perhaps they will be shamed by their community (encouraged by the religious leaders to protect their authority) the same happens in sects of christianity. In jehovah witnesses if someone leaves then everyone is forbidden from talking to that person, they lose their entire friendship group, again a structure designed to protect authority and source of revenue for the church.
Power and money more than religion or spirituality.
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Where did you argue that? All i'm seeing is "i say this." Come on man.[/quote]
I've argued that point all along.
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Also i'm going to bed, i'll catch up on this in the morning[/QUOTE]
hopefully when you've got some sleep you'll read my post properly, not put words in my mouth and write a better post.
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