Australian government set to announce anti vaccination parents will lose social benefits.
52 replies, posted
now if only America did the same before this all got dumb
if you ask me it's extremely fair, if, possibly not [I]harsh enough[/I]
this is the only time I would support minor fear mongering in education because this actually is a REALLY big issue. Not vaccinating your kids can be extremely dangerous and stupid.
[editline]11th April 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=CapellanCitizen;47504862]I hate the antivaccination trend as much as the next internet guy, but if the goal of this legislation is to protect the interests of the children (and others who require herd immunity) then cutting off welfare is likely somewhat counterproductive. You can end up harming the children twice over for the bad decisions of their parents
If failing to vaccinate without a valid medical reason is a form child endangerment then the parents should probably be dealt with for their neglectful behavior directly
ED: Like get CPS involved or whatever[/QUOTE]
that makes sense
this bill is a good step, but I definitely seeing CPS getting involved being much more helpful
[QUOTE=J!NX;47508726]now if only America did the same before this all got dumb
if you ask me it's extremely fair, if, possibly not [I]harsh enough[/I]
this is the only time I would support minor fear mongering in education because this actually is a REALLY big issue. Not vaccinating your kids can be extremely dangerous and stupid.
[editline]11th April 2015[/editline]
that makes sense
this bill is a good step, but I definitely seeing CPS getting involved being much more helpful[/QUOTE]
The fact that such a bill gets passed shows that the climate in Australia is pro-vaxx, which is at the very least bodes well for their future.
I can only hope the tide shifts in the US.
Obama is taking away our freedoms!
[QUOTE=Kommodore;47502828]what an incredibly shit way of dealing with the anti-vax issue
[editline]11th April 2015[/editline]
if 99% of the problem with anti-vax is caused from lacking the education to know better then it seems pretty fucking cynical to assume threatening poor people with welfare cuts has any effect whatsoever on the underlying structure of the problem[/QUOTE]
Working at a doctor's surgery here in Australia, the only anti-vax people I've come across are not poor people at all.
[QUOTE=Kommodore;47502907]Honestly mostly because the law implies if you're a middle class or rich yuppie retard you can feel free to just not vaccinate your kid no problem and that's ok because fuck poor people
[editline]11th April 2015[/editline]
And partly because they still have no sense or appreciation for the social responsibility of vaccinations. That's not a sign of a healthy, integral society. The government also has a social responsibility: to cultivate a rational society not say "fuck it you're poor and dumb and it's too much effort to deal with this the right way, we're gonna make you even poorer if you don't."
It's the fact that anti-vax suddently started existing or at least returned to prominence at all which is the actual problem that no one seems to focus on.[/QUOTE]
Okay so the next step is then a massive fine for not vaccinating your children. We'll call it a payment to the country for endangering literally every other citizen. Rich people hate paying money. Especially if you make it like double taxes.
vaccinations should be mandatory for everyone healthy enough to recieve them full stop
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;47516285]vaccinations should be mandatory for everyone healthy enough to recieve them full stop[/QUOTE]
Ya Germany does that if I'm not mistaken and they have something like a 96-97% immunization rate which means like almost nobody will ever die from these diseases even if there is an outbreak in Europe and some people can't get the shot
[QUOTE=Sableye;47516342]Ya Germany does that if I'm not mistaken [/QUOTE]
You are
Vaccinations shouldn't be mandatory. Nor should you threaten people into them. No matter how strongly you support vaccinations (and you should, really).
I mean, think about it... If vaccinations are truly good for you, why would you need to force people to use them?
It's straight up primal fear most of you let yourselves succumb to. You know vaccinations are good, so obviously you are going to partake of them. Congratulations! You and your ilk are protected! Now this SMALL population of people who are making sensational headlines, are uneducated. Ignorant to the benefits of modern medicine.
You think forcing them to take Vaccinations is going to protect you any more? You're already taking them willingly! They're just going to insist that by forcing them you are proving how deadly and evil vaccinations really are! Because why would you force them to take something good?! They're only going to inject more and stronger solutions of bleach into their Kids' asses to counter-act the evil vaccines they were forced to take.
Get it?
Educate people. And those who continue to resist will find themselves and their children in hospitals, dying of disease. Then it will become PAINFULLY clear to them what is what. Meanwhile, the rest of you continue about, healthy.
Stop trying to control. You're only going to fuck it up.
[QUOTE=Keys;47519777]Vaccinations shouldn't be mandatory. Nor should you threaten people into them. No matter how strongly you support vaccinations (and you should, really).
I mean, think about it... If vaccinations are truly good for you, why would you need to force people to use them?
It's straight up primal fear most of you let yourselves succumb to. You know vaccinations are good, so obviously you are going to partake of them. Congratulations! You and your ilk are protected! Now this SMALL population of people who are making sensational headlines, are uneducated. Ignorant to the benefits of modern medicine.
You think forcing them to take Vaccinations is going to protect you any more? You're already taking them willingly! They're just going to insist that by forcing them you are proving how deadly and evil vaccinations really are! Because why would you force them to take something good?! They're only going to inject more and stronger solutions of bleach into their Kids' asses to counter-act the evil vaccines they were forced to take.
Get it?
Educate people. And those who continue to resist will find themselves and their children in hospitals, dying of disease. Then it will become PAINFULLY clear to them what is what. Meanwhile, the rest of you continue about, healthy.
Stop trying to control. You're only going to fuck it up.[/QUOTE]
It's been said thousands of times that anti-vaxxers simply do not follow rational trains of thought. They actively discredit legitimate arguments and evidence while screaming about their disproven, anecdotal evidence they found on a Geocities website. It is not founded in any sense of truth. It is a completely worthless concept which has killed people in the name - and [i]only[/i] the name - of autism prevention.
And please look up the concept of [URL="http://www.vaccines.gov/basics/protection/"]herd immunity[/URL]. There are people who simply cannot get vaccinated because they actually [i]will[/i] die, and the only way to protect them is for the rest of us - [i]all[/i] of us - to be vaccinated. Not getting vaccinated is selfish and has repercussions beyond your own family. If you are immune-suppressed, your health is completely dependent on everyone else. When someone actively stops themselves from being protected, that is a serious threat to the health of people who can't protect themselves.
Everybody who can be vaccinated, must be vaccinated. Plain and simple. No excuses.
[QUOTE=Snowmew;47519841]It's been said thousands of times that anti-vaxxers simply do not follow rational trains of thought. They actively discredit legitimate arguments and evidence while screaming about their disproven, anecdotal evidence they found on a Geocities website. It is not founded in any sense of truth. It is a completely worthless concept which has killed people in the name - and [i]only[/i] the name - of autism prevention.
And please look up the concept of [URL="http://www.vaccines.gov/basics/protection/"]herd immunity[/URL]. There are people who simply cannot get vaccinated because they actually [i]will[/i] die, and the only way to protect them is for the rest of us - [i]all[/i] of us - to be vaccinated. Not getting vaccinated is selfish and has repercussions beyond your own family. If you are immune-suppressed, your health is completely dependent on everyone else. When someone actively stops themselves from being protected, that is a serious threat to the health of people who can't protect themselves.
Everybody who can be vaccinated, must be vaccinated. Plain and simple. No excuses.[/QUOTE]
Oh here we go.
Herd Mentality is bullshit because there is no way you can vaccine everyone from everything. Here in the US we "Blanket Vaccine", meaning we select the top 10 or so killers, Measles, Mumps, HPV, etc. and vaccine for them. Then, with such illnesses as Influenza, we pick the top 5 or so viruses collected from hospitals in that region and cook them together. So when you get your vaccine you are protected by those FIVE(+/-) strains. But if you just so happen to come in contact with any of the other 1,000,000 evolved strains of Influenza floating about the world, you're [u]Still Going to Get Sick[/u]. We live in a world where disease is spread globally, not just regionally.
And saying you're getting vaccinated to protect those with compromised immune systems is just as absurd and bullshit. Please, stop acting like you're saving the World. People who have compromised immune systems are already in a world of trouble. They can go outside, touch a bathroom stall, and become deadly ill from the common cold. It goes beyond some nitwit refusing vaccines.
My aunt is one of them. She's missing some chromosome that restricts her immune system. My uncle will develop a sore throat and a bit of a cough while she is bed ridden and running a fever of 103F. If everyone was vaccinated from the Flu it [u]would not[/u] change her situation in the least. As there are MANY more illnesses floating about which are 'unvaccinated' for and are much more serious.
You all claim you're "in the know" but you're showing your ignorance just as much as the "anti-vaxxers." Forcing people based on your blatant fears will only cause you misery down the road. Let those who refuse the education perish to their own, but forcing them will only fuel their cause.
Shit, E. Coli can be found in just about every public restroom, park lake, and taxi cab door handle. Are we going to force people to carry sanitizer gel next?
[QUOTE=Keys;47520360]Oh here we go.[/QUOTE]
That's my line.
[QUOTE=Keys;47520360]Herd Mentality is bullshit because there is no way you can vaccine everyone from everything. Here in the US we "Blanket Vaccine", meaning we select the top 10 or so killers, Measles, Mumps, HPV, etc. and vaccine for them. Then, with such illnesses as Influenza, we pick the top 5 or so viruses collected from hospitals in that region and cook them together. So when you get your vaccine you are protected by those FIVE(+/-) strains. But if you just so happen to come in contact with any of the other 1,000,000 evolved strains of Influenza floating about the world, you're [u]Still Going to Get Sick[/u]. We live in a world where disease is spread globally, not just regionally.[/QUOTE]
So we should just not be vaccinated for the flu, because the odds are [i]so great[/i] that we'll find one of those other strains? Way to pull that one out of your ass.
The CDC [URL="http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/vaccination/effectiveness-studies.htm"]actually posts flu vaccine efficacy[/URL] for the past decade. For most of that time, we've run an average 50% reduced risk for those who got the vaccine. Are you willing to throw that away because it's only 50%? The flu vaccine unquestionably saves lives - not only the lives of people who get the vaccine, but lives of people who cannot get it (or simply don't) who would have otherwise gotten sick.
And guess what? We do fuck up sometimes. In fact, last year we only got 20%, which was pretty bad. (Incidentally, last year was the only year anyone in my family got the flu for a long time - we are all vaccinated yearly, and we all got it.) I actually remember discussing here how this season's vaccine was for shit.
Just because we cannot vaccinate everyone for everything does not mean we don't experience at least some form of herd immunity. Are you willing to put it on the line that no lives have ever been saved from the concept of herd immunity? If not, your argument falls apart, because it has saved lives.
Don't forget that there are people who can't be vaccinated [i]yet aren't immune-suppressed[/i]. Those people can do whatever, get their colds, and go through life as normal. However, they stand to benefit more (comparatively) from herd immunity.
[QUOTE=Keys;47520360]And saying you're getting vaccinated to protect those with compromised immune systems is just as absurd and bullshit. Please, stop acting like you're saving the World. People who have compromised immune systems are already in a world of trouble. They can go outside, touch a bathroom stall, and become deadly ill from the common cold. It goes beyond some nitwit refusing vaccines.
My aunt is one of them. She's missing some chromosome that restricts her immune system. My uncle will develop a sore throat and a bit of a cough while she is bed ridden and running a fever of 103F. If everyone was vaccinated from the Flu it [u]would not[/u] change her situation in the least. As there are MANY more illnesses floating about which are 'unvaccinated' for and are much more serious.[/QUOTE]
There are also lots of opportunities to die while driving a car, does that mean we should just ignore traffic rules because fuck it, we could die anyway?
You discuss the idea of thinking on a global scale, then you refer to an exceedingly small anecdotal scenario. There are billions of people in the world, not just your aunt and uncle. Just because herd immunity may never have any effect in their lives does not mean that it has no effect worldwide. Your uncle could have refused the MMR vaccine, contracted measles, and surprise - now it works. The odds are slim, but not impossible.
[QUOTE=Keys;47520360]You all claim you're "in the know" but you're showing your ignorance just as much as the "anti-vaxxers." Forcing people based on your blatant fears will only cause you misery down the road. Let those who refuse the education perish to their own, but forcing them will only fuel their cause.[/QUOTE]
If someone refuses vaccines on their own, that is a very selfish thing to do, but fine. If someone senselessly refuses vaccines for their children, especially while they themselves were vaccinated - the [i]vast[/i] majority of anti-vaxxers fall into this category, which is what we're discussing here - I simply cannot respect nor tolerate their attitude.
They will not accept the education, they are not assuming any of the risk, they are endangering their children. You cannot convince them to vaccinate their children. If that fuels their cause, so be it, but it's as ridiculous as claiming that prison sentences fueling the cause of gang activity. Who cares?
[QUOTE=Keys;47520360]Shit, E. Coli can be found in just about every public restroom, park lake, and taxi cab door handle. Are we going to force people to carry sanitizer gel next?[/QUOTE]
[URL="https://62e528761d0685343e1c-f3d1b99a743ffa4142d9d7f1978d9686.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/files/18002/wide_article/width926x450/3q3bvxxf-1353902236.jpg"]Sanitizer gel and vaccines are two totally different ballgames.[/URL]
god it's not like vaccines can literally eradicate deadly diseases from the face of the earth
oh wait how many people get smallpox these days
For adults, it should be a choice; for children, it should not.
Snowmew can you show up to speak in front of governments about climate change and lay the smackdown like you've done so many times before with other things?
[QUOTE=Lord_Ragnarok;47523851]For adults, it should be a choice; for children, it should not.[/QUOTE]
Why should it be a choice for adults? Apart from the risk of reaction, what reason is there [I]not[/I] to get vaccinated as an adult?
[QUOTE=Keys;47519777]Vaccinations shouldn't be mandatory. Nor should you threaten people into them. No matter how strongly you support vaccinations (and you should, really).
I mean, think about it... If vaccinations are truly good for you, why would you need to force people to use them?
It's straight up primal fear most of you let yourselves succumb to. You know vaccinations are good, so obviously you are going to partake of them. Congratulations! You and your ilk are protected! Now this SMALL population of people who are making sensational headlines, are uneducated. Ignorant to the benefits of modern medicine.
You think forcing them to take Vaccinations is going to protect you any more? You're already taking them willingly! They're just going to insist that by forcing them you are proving how deadly and evil vaccinations really are! Because why would you force them to take something good?! They're only going to inject more and stronger solutions of bleach into their Kids' asses to counter-act the evil vaccines they were forced to take.
Get it?
Educate people. And those who continue to resist will find themselves and their children in hospitals, dying of disease. Then it will become PAINFULLY clear to them what is what. Meanwhile, the rest of you continue about, healthy.
Stop trying to control. You're only going to fuck it up.[/QUOTE]
Herd immunity. Look it up.
[editline]14th April 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Keys;47520360]Oh here we go.
Herd Mentality is bullshit because there is no way you can vaccine everyone from everything. Here in the US we "Blanket Vaccine", meaning we select the top 10 or so killers, Measles, Mumps, HPV, etc. and vaccine for them. Then, with such illnesses as Influenza, we pick the top 5 or so viruses collected from hospitals in that region and cook them together. So when you get your vaccine you are protected by those FIVE(+/-) strains. But if you just so happen to come in contact with any of the other 1,000,000 evolved strains of Influenza floating about the world, you're [u]Still Going to Get Sick[/u]. We live in a world where disease is spread globally, not just regionally.
And saying you're getting vaccinated to protect those with compromised immune systems is just as absurd and bullshit. Please, stop acting like you're saving the World. People who have compromised immune systems are already in a world of trouble. They can go outside, touch a bathroom stall, and become deadly ill from the common cold. It goes beyond some nitwit refusing vaccines.
My aunt is one of them. She's missing some chromosome that restricts her immune system. My uncle will develop a sore throat and a bit of a cough while she is bed ridden and running a fever of 103F. If everyone was vaccinated from the Flu it [u]would not[/u] change her situation in the least. As there are MANY more illnesses floating about which are 'unvaccinated' for and are much more serious.
You all claim you're "in the know" but you're showing your ignorance just as much as the "anti-vaxxers." Forcing people based on your blatant fears will only cause you misery down the road. Let those who refuse the education perish to their own, but forcing them will only fuel their cause.
Shit, E. Coli can be found in just about every public restroom, park lake, and taxi cab door handle. Are we going to force people to carry sanitizer gel next?[/QUOTE]
Herd [b]immunity[/b], not mentality.
How the hell does it not protect them? If the population around you is more likely to harbour a virus because they aren't vaccinated, isn't it obvious that you are also more likely to catch that virus?
Herd immunity isn't just about protecting those with compromised immune systems, it's about protecting those who are unable to receive the vaccine's as well (allergic or adverse reactions).
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;47525078]Herd immunity.[B] Look it up.[/B]
[/QUOTE]
that's not how this works. you brought it up, the burden of proof is on you.
[QUOTE=Tmaxx;47528354]that's not how this works. you brought it up, the burden of proof is on you.[/QUOTE]
the proof is that there are diseases like smallpox that straight up DON'T EXIST ANYMORE because of how immune people don't further the spread of the disease since their bodies don't become a breeding ground for them.
Measles was almost gone until misinformed and autism-hating anti-vaxx people decided that it's better to risk the lives of their children and other people than have a(n imagined) chance of their kid "contracting" autism.
[QUOTE=Levithan;47528513]the proof is that there are diseases like smallpox that straight up DON'T EXIST ANYMORE because of how immune people don't further the spread of the disease since their bodies don't become a breeding ground for them.
Measles was almost gone until misinformed and autism-hating anti-vaxx people decided that it's better to risk the lives of their children and other people than have a(n imagined) chance of their kid "contracting" autism.[/QUOTE]
no, im not against vaccines, It's just that people who say "look it up" are lazy as shit.
[QUOTE=Levithan;47528513]the proof is that there are diseases like smallpox that straight up DON'T EXIST ANYMORE because of how immune people don't further the spread of the disease since their bodies don't become a breeding ground for them.[/QUOTE]
That's great and absolutely true, but every thread about vaccinations usually resorts to emotional appeals that boil down to 'you're KILLING immunodeficient people, don't you feel bad?!'. And Keys is absolutely right about one thing, which is that the argument that we need to get vaccinated to protect immunocompromised people is nonsense. The number of diseases that can kill someone with a compromised immune system that can be stopped by vaccinations is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the number of variations of influenza alone that remain lethal.
Herd immunity itself is a relatively recent concept that only gained academic popularity in the late 70s and 80s, and most of the literature on the subject is about its use in eradicating disease, not protecting people who can't get vaccinated- the most substantial study I've seen on that subject was one from Japan where selective administration of vaccines to school-age children reduced mortality amongst the elderly during an influenza outbreak in the 90s. But eradicating diseases that those who voluntarily vaccinate will never suffer from doesn't have quite the same emotional hook, so it's not the argument people turn to when insisting that vaccination should be legally mandated.
In fact, HPV is an example of a disease hurting the developing world that could potentially be eradicated through herd immunity. However, [URL="http://www.nature.com/bjc/journal/v97/n9/abs/6604023a.html"]a fairly well-known study[/URL] in Brazil showed that developing herd immunity was not an effective solution to HPV transmission. The study recommends immunizing girls in Brazil against HPV, but not boys- it's far more effective to ensure comprehensive coverage of girls than to strive for herd immunity.
So yes, when people bring up herd immunity as a magic bullet argument for why vaccination should be mandatory, it needs to be substantiated with an actual argument.
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