• "Whiteness burning": UCT Students are throwing “colonial” art on the pyre. Forgot College education
    442 replies, posted
White colonialism was pretty shitty for the natives who inhabited what is South Africa. It remained pretty shitty for them well into the 20th century, and becoming marginally less shitty after the end of Apartheid. However a hundred plus years of brutal systemic repression aren't fixed in even a single generation, so things still largely suck for a lot of black South Africans. That coupled with a classically blushingly corrupt African government that has done really nothing to improve the lives of your average South African. And another portion of which actively inflames racial tension, with that context to me it sort of makes sense. I'm not saying smashing paintings and stuff is good or that anti-white racism isn't racism (spoiler: it is regardless of power-privilege sociological voodoo). I'm saying that you all, FPers, are largely white, middle class and born in stable democratic societies that weren't ruled by ethnic minorities to your determent for centuries. And there is literally nothing wrong with any of that, but just consider for a moment what you don't have to deal with as a result of mostly that last circumstance and how that colors what you value. In this case you an look on from a distance and bemoan the loss of art, but for young black South Africans that isn't art, it's the iconography of the oppressors that stole their homeland and impoverished their people. To them it is valueless and when considering their perspective and circumstance I can't entirely disagree regardless of how misguided I think it is. Again I don't think scrawling "fuck white people" is helpful or a good sign for SA's future, but in the context of that countries history and it's current troubles it isn't unexpected.
[QUOTE=Take_Opal;49775536]Why does anyone need victorian photos of oppressors?[/QUOTE]Think about all the works that have been made between WWII and now. Done that? Good. Now, [i]try[/i] to imagine how different that mass of culture would be as a whole if somehow no one remembered what Adolf Hitler looked like. [QUOTE=Take_Opal;49775758]No because there is no objective truth to this stuff that matters. Everything is historical, that doesn't make it significant and history will be and is forgotten.[/QUOTE]Everything will be eventually forgotten, you nihilist middle schooler. I could theoretically justify anything with the eventual heat death of the universe, but that wouldn't make my position any more valid or reasonable.
Never thought I'd ever end up saying this seriously but... Fucking monkeys. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Racism" - Craptasket))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Take_Opal;49775596]Yes, because art does not hold inherent significance and not all of it should or will be preserved. A great number of academics would disagree.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Take_Opal;49775558]Mmm, I'll stand corrected on that example (and probably more). But burning, destroying art has it's own significance which can very well overshadow the significance of the art is mostly what I am posing. But no, you can't be racist towards white people.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Take_Opal;49775774]Or historical insignificance.[/QUOTE] What the [b]fuck[/b] is [i]wrong with you?[/i]
Wouldn't you feel smug walking by a statue of Cecil Rhodes if you were black? You're literally everything he hated. An educated person of color trampling all through his sacred enclave of white education.
By opals logic we might as well dismantle the US and launch Europe back into the times from before slavery.
[I]"Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it".[/I] ― Edmund Burke This is specially painful, coming from a bunch of students, at a university.
For people who are meant to be smart, they're being awfully fucking stupid :V
Just South Africa being South Africa, nothing new.
[QUOTE=Take_Opal;49775558]But no, you can't be racist towards white people.[/QUOTE] You don't even need to [I]prove [/I]this statement wrong, it's literally just simply flat out incorrect. [QUOTE][url]http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism[/url] Simple Definition of racism : poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race : the belief that some races of people are better than others[/QUOTE] literally all you have to do to be racist towards white people: hate them for being white that's it you're now a racist. It's that simple. Exact same logic applies to blacks, Asians, native Americans, canadians. If you hate someone because they're of Russian descent you're a racist.
[I]"Racism = power + prejudice, therefore it is impossible to be racist against the racial majority,"[/I] is an incredibly stupid argument; this coming from somebody who regularly and frequently writes long-winded rants about the pervasive ugliness of racism in today's America. Racism is hatred, fear, or intolerance based on race. While racism can be displayed in many different forms, this is the heart of it. Black people can be racist. White people can be racist. Everybody and anybody can be racist. [I]Institutional[/I] racism typically does require the "power + prejudice" deal, but institutional racism is [I]not[/I] the only outlet for racial hatred, merely a powerful by-product of it on a mass scale.
institutional racism exists as the phrase to mean "power + prejudice", racism exists as the term for discrimination based on race. these are both very important concepts that should retain these meanings. i understand that, in an academic sociological context, racism means "power + prejudice", but i fear that definition leaking out to become the colloquial definition. it does nothing to help mend the racial wounds of our cultures (it may even keep them open), and opens up the opportunity for "justifiable" abuse. maybe i am just a hippy but i don't see how shoving deeper wedges between people will lead to a positive resolution to the problems at hand
[QUOTE=Mallow234;49776933]For people who are meant to be smart, they're being awfully fucking stupid :V[/QUOTE] It's a good reminder to not equate knowledge and wisdom.
[QUOTE=Ruski v2.0;49775691] I'll finish with the point that the Qing weren't as comparatively bad. 'Imperialistic' was a misnomer there, as the Confucian state was against change, which forced the state to rely heavily upon the soft power that their position in the geographical area allowed them. The Dzungar genocide was terrible, but the Qianlong emperor had to make an example. Remember that the Manchus were nomadic conquerors, so couldn't allow any dissent from the indigenous Chinese peoples. You also have to remember that the Qing conquest of China wasn't anything horrific, it was simply another episode in the 'winding river' of Chinese history. Chinese history has a vague pattern and it was accepted within China that this was the way of dynasties, to rise and fall.[/QUOTE] You're right but I disagree with the way you justify the sins of the Qing. They were horrible rulers that were exceptionally brutal. Many people seem to hold the European Imperialists to a higher standard when for the most part, they were never as brutal. [QUOTE=Ruski v2.0;49775443][i]'We shouldn't dwell on the evils of imperialism. We should remember them, but we should forgive them. The sins of the past are in the past and we should now work toward a better future'[/i] - Dr. Yangwen Zheng, prominent Chinese revisionist. (bear in mind we hooked the Chinese on opium, essentially looted the country for rare artifacts, burned down the Yuan Ming Yuan, seized land by force and bankrupted the Qing state)[/QUOTE] Just curious but do you think that people should never learn to forgive? I think the world would be a worse place if the French, English and Germans still hated eachother to this day.
I certainly feel for all of these underprivileged rich children, able to wear leading fashion trends and attend accredited universities. [I]Clearly[/I], colonialism has impacted their lives on a personal level.
I hope anyone who's taking part in this is expelled and arrested for destroying historical objects.
Glad to see racism is still alive and well in South Africa.
Even if you think "Racism = power + prejudice, therefore it is impossible to be racist against the racial majority" South Africa is less than 9% white and 76% black. In the government there's 10 black representatives/ministers for each white one. By your logic you literally can't be racist against black people.
Cape Town universities and their students have become increasingly retarded for a few months now. -There's the anti-white racism in UCT and protests regarding lack of student accomodation (I might be wrong and this is actually at UWC, not too sure) -Tumblr-level whining at a supposed blackface incident at Stellenbosch (which turned out to be purple paint for some party). This was preceded by an earlier racism incident at Stellenbosch mid-last year. -The FeesMustFall movement (which is partially understandable considering the current economic turmoil) which caused CPUT to postpone their year-end exams to January and caused administrative chaos with students who couldn't register for the 2016 academic year until they had their exam results. In parliament the politicians keep calling for an end to racism but I feel that this falls on deaf ears as the black majority think that it isn't directed at them (and probably some of the politicians think so as well). I'm just lucky to be at a private institution here in Cape Town instead of one of these universities like I originally planned. Cape Town universities are filled with people who would fit in with SJWs, with the situation charged with racial tension from entitled students who weren't even embryos when apartheid ended. South Africa has a very long way to go but with the current state of the nation things could deteriorate very quickly.
I think the fact that they're defacing a WWI-WWII memorial really speaks to how much thought these people actually put into their cause These are clearly just a bunch of children making up things to riot over for the sake of rioting [editline]20th February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Nautsabes;49775399]why not? its not exactly a secret colonialism did a lot of damage to africa. whats so wrong about african destroyign idols of colonialism[/QUOTE] idk probably the fact they were the ones enslaving people and selling them to mean ol whitey in the first place
Just ignore Nautsabes, he's just your local cannibal(serious) nihilist. I think he has developed kuru or something.
[QUOTE=AnonymaPizza;49777451]I certainly feel for all of these underprivileged rich children, able to wear leading fashion trends and attend accredited universities. [I]Clearly[/I], colonialism has impacted their lives on a personal level.[/QUOTE] South Africa is going to shit and they can't blame their government. Why? Because they've been electing the same party in for 20 years and that party is the ANC, the party of the hero Nelson Mandela. A party that can be corrupt and useless and still win votes because of its legacy. So who gets blamed? The white minority of course.
This thread is a shitshow, I feel legitimately sorry that there could be so many delusional people saying such horrible things here. God I hope this dumb mentality about racism and all that is only going to vanish now. But that would be naive.
[QUOTE=Nautsabes;49775338]out with idols of colonialism.[/QUOTE] You burn all evidence of colonialism, you doom it to happen again eventually. Same with bible burnings, they will eventually accomplish the direct opposite.
[QUOTE=Nautsabes;49775417]these thigns harken back to days where white imperialists were in control in africa. whats wrong with africans wanting to destroy these thigns,.[/QUOTE] uhh, i'm pretty sure most of these people are american
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49775384]The world would be much worse off without European colonialism and imperialism. The Zulus would never be reigned in, democracy would have never caught on, Japan would still be a backwards state ruled by a warlord, less technological advances, etc.[/QUOTE] Yeah those niggers should be grateful that we oppressed them and showed them how to not be savages
[QUOTE=Xubs;49778025]Cape Town is in South Africa. The people in the article are South African.[/QUOTE] i need to do my fucking research
[QUOTE=Saturn V;49778092]i need to do my fucking research[/QUOTE] Reading basic info is now called research?
[QUOTE=Take_Opal;49775536]Why does anyone [b]need[/b] victorian photos of oppressors?[/QUOTE] "Why do we [b]need[/b] x, also x is bad" is pretty much a standard argument for the far right. I don't think you can be convinced that you are wrong, but at the very least consider who else is using the same rhetoric. That said, the "if you destroy history you will never learn from it" counter-arguments are pretty bad. I agree with the principle, but the argument itself is cliche as shit. First of all, it should be plainly clear to everyone that a ton of people don't learn anything at all from history. It's surprisngly easy to rationalize away what you are doing. Yes, people can be self-critical now and then, and if they are educated enough they can draw up historical parallels. Take away the self-critical part however, and you can easily end up with "Oh, my political opponent supports x? Well this sounds vaguely similar to SOMETHING STALIN WOULD DO!". You can also have a shit knowledge of history and still be humble and self-critical. Also, don't get me wrong, destroying these pieces of art was fucking horrendous. It was racist vandalism that destroyed something irreplacable, with absolutely no other reason for it other than "Whites made this and whites are bad!". It had some artistic, sentimental and even historical significance. But let's not pretend that because of this people who were willing to learn from history won't.
[QUOTE=Nautsabes;49775399]why not? its not exactly a secret colonialism did a lot of damage to africa. whats so wrong about african destroyign idols of colonialism[/QUOTE] That seems like a fair point if you're a kindergardener. Historical art should not be destroyed. Granted some shit in america belongs in a museum not a college campus, but note how I said museum and not bonfire.
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