Kentucky Confederate Monument to be Removed after 120 Years
71 replies, posted
[QUOTE=plunger435;50237642]I'm not sure which history book you read that said the confederates all rounded the slaves and executed them. Not sure they would kill all those people they were fighting to keep.[/QUOTE]
In the history of slavery in America, thousand and thousands were killed for whatever reasons. That counts as a genocide.
[editline]1st May 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50237649]Yeah, totally. I have ancestors who fought under the Confederate flag to prevent a rampaging Union army from burning every single thing in their state, who were effectively slaves themselves - poor French and Irish whites who were bought, sold, beaten and killed under inescapable contracts just the same as black slaves.
"Learn how to read history books," demands individual who asserts that all Germans during the WW2 period were Nazis.[/QUOTE]
Aaaahahahah
Racists will think of any silly shit to justify their bullshit.
[QUOTE=Shark Bones;50237622]Actually, the enslavement and frequent murder of black people WAS a genocide. And you know who wanted to continue it, and fought for the right to do so? The Confederacy. Fuck the Confederate dead, lol. They can eat my asshole with their clammy dead lips.[/QUOTE]
In all honesty, the mindset behind the Confederacy was more along the lines of "states and new territories should be able to form their own policy towards slavery" than straight up black-genocide. Sure, they were ultimately racists and wanted to perpetuate arguably the worst practice in our countries history, but that doesn't mean we can't respect the thousands of lives lost (many of which I would bet weren't flaming racists themselves)
[QUOTE=Shark Bones;50237652]In the history of slavery in America, thousand and thousands were killed for whatever reasons. That counts as a genocide.
[editline]1st May 2016[/editline]
Aaaahahahah
Racists will think of any silly shit to justify their bullshit.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, you said the confederates personally committed a genocide. That means they had to be the ones to do this, not all of America being blamed on the confederates.
[QUOTE=Shark Bones;50237652]In the history of slavery in America, thousand and thousands were killed for whatever reasons. That counts as a genocide.
[editline]1st May 2016[/editline]
Aaaahahahah
Racists will think of any silly shit to justify their bullshit.[/QUOTE]
Did you know there were free blacks who fought for the Confederacy? I'm waiting to watch you try and explain that away. You still haven't explained how every single German during WW2 was a Nazi. Waiting.
[QUOTE=Shark Bones;50237652]Aaaahahahah
Racists will think of any silly shit to justify their bullshit.[/QUOTE]
wtf why's he a racist
[QUOTE=plunger435;50237666]Sorry, you said the confederates personally committed a genocide. That means they had to be the ones to do this, not all of America being blamed on the confederates.[/QUOTE]
The confederacy wanted to continue said genocide.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;50237673]wtf why's he a racist[/QUOTE]
Because I disagree with him :v:
My avatar is a satire of the KKK crying about the removal of the Confederate flag, obviously I'm a flaming neo-Confederate.
As someone who doesn't think kindly of the confederates, they didn't commit genocide.
Google defines "genocide" as
[quote]the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.[/quote]
Which isn't really applicable in war, where they aren't really attacking one race or anything, and there's mutual destruction. If you're gonna say the confederates committed genocide, you'd have to say we did too.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50237678]Because I disagree with him :v:
My avatar is a satire of the KKK crying about the removal of the Confederate flag, obviously I'm a flaming neo-Confederate.[/QUOTE]
I have avatars on posts disabled - that's a pretty great avatar.
[QUOTE=Bathtub;50237484]i've always interpreted this stuff as honoring the people that died in the civil war, rather than the idealogy they supported
it's a part of our countries history, trying to make it go away isn't going to help anybody[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=thedude95;50237435]Regardless of what they fought for, it's a part of US history. This is just so fucking stupid[/QUOTE]
guys, it's being MOVED. not destroyed. big difference.
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;50237599]So lets remove history from a place of higher learning because a specific group is affected by something they don't like yet has no actual bearing on society today.
Brilliant, instead of learning our history we're ashamed of it and try to hide it away so we don't have it "loom over others".[/QUOTE]
who said anything about hiding? i doubt they're shuffling it away into an alleyway where no one can find it. it'll likely still be on some public display. if they put it in a museum i would be totally okay with that
[QUOTE=Shark Bones;50237551]
Both are responsible for the genocide of a large amount of people, so... yes I can?[/QUOTE]
You said the confederates were responsible for it.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50237556][URL]http://www.thirdreichruins.com/memorials.htm[/URL]
Yeah really? Tell me all about how these don't exist/[/QUOTE]
The German Cross and Stahlhelm aren't Nazi Symbols.
Have you actually read the page? The descriptions mention that most Nazi symbols like the swastika and Nazi eagle have been removed.
Hell, the German Cross is still used to this day:
[t]http://cdn4.img.sputniknews.com/images/103228/87/1032288780.jpg[/t]
[QUOTE=Shark Bones;50237674]The confederacy wanted to continue said genocide.[/QUOTE]
Who is "the confederacy"? Everyone south of the Mason Dixon line? Or just its soldiers? The Confederate military was not a unified fighting force, it was a ragtag collection of militias. If you fired a gun at the invading Union forces who were burning your farms and sacking your cities, you became a Confederate soldier.
Did you know it was a common Union practice to execute slaves instead of sending them back north? Look into your hero Sherman's policies toward blacks.
[editline]1st May 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;50237684]The German Cross and Stahlhelm aren't Nazi Symbols.
Have you actually read the page? The descriptions mention that most Nazi symbols like the swastika and Nazi eagle have been removed
Hell, the German Cross is still used to this day:
[t]http://cdn4.img.sputniknews.com/images/103228/87/1032288780.jpg[/t][/QUOTE]
He's asserting that German WW2 war dead are all Nazis and therefore cannot be commemorated, so I posted a list of memorials to German war dead.
[QUOTE=Shark Bones;50237551]
Both are responsible for the genocide of a large amount of people, so... yes I can?[/QUOTE]
which group of people did the confederates commit genocide against?
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50237686]
Did you know it was a common Union practice to execute slaves instead of sending them back north? Look into your hero Sherman's policies toward blacks.
[/QUOTE]
Can I get a source on this?
[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;50237684]The German Cross and Stahlhelm aren't Nazi Symbols.
Have you actually read the page? The descriptions mention that most Nazi symbols like the swastika and Nazi eagle have been removed.
Hell, the German Cross is still used to this day:
[t]http://cdn4.img.sputniknews.com/images/103228/87/1032288780.jpg[/t][/QUOTE]
still there are memorials on that page for SS divisions.
:what: This thread is goofy as fuck. They are just moving a monument. We dont need to be comparing nazis to confederates.
Edit:
You guys should be more pissed over this bullshit going on in my state. They give this fucker a 18million tax break but they freeze teacher salaries and defund state parks out new governor is a fucking joke.
[url]http://deadstate.org/kentucky-tax-payers-forced-to-fork-over-18-million-for-creationists-ark-encounter-theme-park/[/url]
[QUOTE=Isaac96;50237726]You guys should be more pissed over this bullshit going on in my state. They give this fucker a 18million tax break but they freeze teacher salaries and defund state parks out new governor is a fucking joke.
[url]http://deadstate.org/kentucky-tax-payers-forced-to-fork-over-18-million-for-creationists-ark-encounter-theme-park/[/url][/QUOTE]
Holy shit, talk about a distraction. That should be a bigger news article than this :v:
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;50237782]Holy shit, talk about a distraction. That should be a bigger news article than this :v:[/QUOTE]
Matt Bevin is a fucking criminal
Would've been better off destroyed. Some parts of American history don't deserve to be celebrated.
[QUOTE=MaximLaHaxim;50237812]Would've been better off destroyed. Some parts of American history don't deserve to be celebrated.[/QUOTE]
While I don't hold as much value on historical items, I don't think that this monument is necessarily something that should be destroyed and doesn't necessarily celebrate the war, but instead the people who died. They died for something shitty, yes, but they still died. It also has historical significance as a monument that has stood for 120 years.
[QUOTE=MaximLaHaxim;50237812]Would've been better off destroyed. Some parts of American history don't deserve to be celebrated.[/QUOTE]
Something something forgetting history, something something doomed to repeat it.
[QUOTE=Shark Bones;50237652]In the history of slavery in America, thousand and thousands were killed for whatever reasons. That counts as a genocide.
[/QUOTE]
No it strictly doesn't, genocide has a very accurate definition and the fact that thousands of blacks were killed in 250 years of American History doesn't constitute a genocide. Genocide is:
[QUOTE]the intentional action to systematically eliminate an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group. [/QUOTE]
there was no intentional action to systematically eliminate African slaves or their descendants. There was a history of grievous mistreatment under the auspices of chattle slavery, but it wasn't genocide.
[QUOTE=MaximLaHaxim;50237812]Would've been better off destroyed. Some parts of American history don't deserve to be celebrated.[/QUOTE]
Forgetting your history is the first step on the road to repeating it
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;50237519]Stalin and Lenin statue's are a shitty example because those were made to inflate their egos and spread their image/ideals.
Statue's commemorating war dead are just that, commemorating the dead.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't commemorate everyone that died in the war though, just one side.
[QUOTE=L'Citizen;50237971]Forgetting your history is the first step on the road to repeating it[/QUOTE]
And we've got plenty of memorials, TV shows, documentaries, textbooks, and books reminding us thank you.
[QUOTE=plunger435;50237505]Not saying it necessarily applies to this case, but history shouldn't be a reason to preserve monuments. It's why they removed monuments to Stalin and Lenin.[/QUOTE]
The monument is meant to honor the lives of the brave men who died during the American Civil War, not their respective Ideologies. It's a tribute to their valor and their loss of life fighting to defend their families and loved ones.
The fact that you're comparing such a monument to an Ideological statue of Communist Dictators who only wanted to preserve their own fame, glory, and ego is disgusting. Because in doing so you belittle [i]every[/i] such monument. You belittle the monument revering the men who gave their lives at Iwo Jima to stop the spread of Japanese Imperialism and war crimes. You belittle the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier who reveres every soldier who gives his or her life without recognition, without their bodies being recovered or disfigured beyond recognition, whos families will never truly know if or how they died. You belittle the Memorial of the USS Arizona and the 1,102 Sailors and Marines it honors, victims of an unprovoked attack by the Japanese in the Battle of Pearl Harbor.
Some monuments deserve to stand the test of time. Monuments like these, who honor those who selflessly laid down their lives in the defense of others, are those monuments. And they do not deserve to be compared to ego-driven 'selfies' of dictators and heads of state. These monuments 100% deserve to stand as a reminder of history. They deserve preservation.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50237672]Did you know there were free blacks who fought for the Confederacy? I'm waiting to watch you try and explain that away. You still haven't explained how every single German during WW2 was a Nazi. Waiting.[/QUOTE]
They were offered freedom to die fighting in place of whites. The view that they were willingly fighting for slavery is one of ignorance and it doesn't show anything but Confederate manipulation of blacks.
[editline]2nd May 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Raidyr;50237929]No it strictly doesn't, genocide has a very accurate definition and the fact that thousands of blacks were killed in 250 years of American History doesn't constitute a genocide. Genocide is:
there was no intentional action to systematically eliminate African slaves or their descendants. There was a history of grievous mistreatment under the auspices of chattle slavery, but it wasn't genocide.[/QUOTE]
I can pretty much make the claim that the whites in the South saw the blacks working for them as less than human, worked them to death, and sometimes systematically killed them in retaliation for petty crimes which they were not held to a jury of their peers for. That's very similar to what happened in the Holocaust, except the end goal was work, not elimination. Plantations, especially in a lot of historical narratives are compared to the concentration camps of the Nazis in conditions and damage done to a populance.
[editline]2nd May 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50237686]Who is "the confederacy"? Everyone south of the Mason Dixon line? Or just its soldiers? The Confederate military was not a unified fighting force, it was a ragtag collection of militias. If you fired a gun at the invading Union forces who were burning your farms and sacking your cities, you became a Confederate soldier.
Did you know it was a common Union practice to execute slaves instead of sending them back north? Look into your hero Sherman's policies toward blacks.
[/QUOTE]
Killing of blacks was on both sides of the war. They would actually not kill freed blacks but capture them and put them to work. Yeah there are cases of execution, but to say it was commonplace needs to be sourced.
Besides that the Confederacy [I]was[/I] a unified network of states for slavery. They even had a president and treasurer. They, at that time were considered not a "rag-tag" team of militias, but rather a separatist state breaking away from the Union.
I live in Kentucky. We weren't ever part of the Confederacy except for one week where they occupied Frankfort, and we don't need a monument praising them either.
[QUOTE=Shark Bones;50237622]Actually, the enslavement and frequent murder of black people WAS a genocide. And you know who wanted to continue it, and fought for the right to do so? The Confederacy. Fuck the Confederate dead, lol. They can eat my asshole with their clammy dead lips.[/QUOTE]
This is disgustingly disrespectful. Regardless of whether or not you agree with the ideology of the Confederacy as a whole, you need to realize that the VAST MAJORITY of Southern soldiers killed during the Civil War were fighting to defend their homelands. The average Confederate soldier did not own slaves, and was not fighting to preserve slavery. They were defending their home states, and their families. Or did you forget that the Union started the war? That the Union ignored the CSA's attempts to establish trade and alliance with the Union before the war started?
Or the big kicker: Did you forget about Sherman's March to the Sea? How he marched 50,000 - 60,000 Union soldiers through 300 miles of Georgia, burning the land, killing civilians, and allowing his men to rape women the entire way? His "scorched earth" march to Savannah inflicted over a billion dollars in damage after inflation. Destroyed 300 miles of railroad and bridges, cut miles of telegraph lines, stole food from civilians and left them to starve, and ruined the livelyhood of thousands of honest people who made their money WITHOUT slaves.
[QUOTE=TheDestroyerOfall;50238592]
I can pretty much make the claim that the whites in the South saw the blacks working for them as less than human, worked them to death, and sometimes systematically killed them in retaliation for petty crimes which they were not held to a jury of their peers for. That's very similar to what happened in the Holocaust, except the end goal was work, not elimination. Plantations, especially in a lot of historical narratives are compared to the concentration camps of the Nazis in conditions and damage done to a populance.
[/QUOTE]
It's not similar at all to the Holocaust wherein several layers of German bureaucracy worked in concert to identify, detain, deport, imprison, and execute the Jewish population of Europe. Slaves didn't have rights and were treated as subhuman but they were not systemically eliminated whatsoever, certainly not for petty crimes.
This monument was already moved in 1954. They're not destroying it, they're moving it. What's the issue?
This is one of the more tasteful confederate monuments - it's not talking about white supremacy like several do. Moving it to a museum area or a cemetery is the ideal situation - keeping a monument to a group that fought to enslave an entire race on a university campus is disrespectful.
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