• John Demjanjuk guilty of Nazi death camp murders
    191 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Communist Nigga;29795422]At some point, I do. It was war, it happened in war. You don't really get the option to disobey your orders. As you can see, he was a guard, he didn't take a major role in the executions. He was captured by the Germans and forced into the army. He would probably get executed if he didn't obey the orders, so I can pretty much guess how he felt. I would do the same. Not to mention that he wasn't German, I'm sure that the Nazis disliked him for that too.[/QUOTE] Genocide wasn't part of the war.
[QUOTE=Fire Kracker;29795484]advanced age always makes a word that means old man sound cool lol[/QUOTE] Sounds better than old decrepit SOB.
[QUOTE=captainHOE;29795710]Genocide wasn't part of the war.[/QUOTE] You still can't disobey your orders, you're in the army.
[QUOTE=Communist Nigga;29796124]You still can't disobey your orders, you're in the army.[/QUOTE] Well first of all, the military wasn't in charge of the labor and death camps. That was up to the SS. Secondly, we don't know what was the conviction based of, and what did he do there. We are just speculating.
Gentlemen. Whether or not he did this crime, he shouldn't be put to death, for several reasons. 1. Death Penalty for any crime is pure revenge. No punishment is involved, no rehabilitation, no nothing. 2. The Milgram Experiment showed that, or at least appeared to show, orders from authorities and people above you can make you do things you wouldn't normally do, even if you can rationally question the ethics of your own actions. 3. It's been a while. He hasn't done anything since then, and he's obviously a changed man.
[QUOTE=CertainDOOM;29792907]I like how Soviet and Western Allied war crimes almost completely unpunished yet if there was a guy that had any affiliation with anyone that had anything to do with the holocaust, people will spend years hunting them down. Apparently nobody cares about the mass rape commited upon the people of Berlin.[/QUOTE] Because punishing victors is wrong. Also in russia no one gives a shit about some decades old war. [editline]13th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Treybuchet;29796312]Gentlemen. Whether or not he did this crime, he shouldn't be put to death, for several reasons. 1. Death Penalty for any crime is pure revenge. No punishment is involved, no rehabilitation, no nothing. 2. The Milgram Experiment showed that, or at least appeared to show, orders from authorities and people above you can make you do things you wouldn't normally do, even if you can rationally question the ethics of your own actions. 3. It's been a while. He hasn't done anything since then, and he's obviously a changed man.[/QUOTE] What, noone's putting him for death penalty. He will die of old age soon enough.
[QUOTE=Raiskauskone V2;29778414]These trials are useless and only thing they achieve is revenge, and that gains nothing[/QUOTE] so if i killed people 70 years ago you'd say forget it because it was 70 years ago? So justice is actually determined by time, so the longer ago it happened, the lesser the punishment. thanks, i got it now :) [editline]13th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Communist Nigga;29796124]You still can't disobey your orders, you're in the army.[/QUOTE] do you think it's ok that those who helped torture, kill, and humiliate those prisoners in abu ghraib , dont deserve the punishment they received because their superiors authorized it? instead of reporting it they decided to do it anyway. that's ok with you?
[QUOTE=fox '09;29796396]so if i killed people 70 years ago you'd say forget it because it was 70 years ago? So justice is actually determined by time, so the longer ago it happened, the lesser the punishment. thanks, i got it now :)[/QUOTE] No, however this man didn't directly kill anyone. He was a guard. They are punishing him for 200,000 or so deaths, which obviously wasn't his crime. They feel hurt and want to get revenge, and that's it. If you killed people 70 years ago, and somehow evaded justice until now, you would still be arrested and punished, because you can't do that. However, they would be punishing you for the crime you actually committed, not the crime they are blaming on him.
What... They are punishing him for being responsible for 28,000 deaths, or did you not read the article? [editline]14th May 2011[/editline] stop thinking he's an innocent old man.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;29796576]What... They are punishing him for being responsible for 28,000 deaths, or did you not read the article? [editline]14th May 2011[/editline] stop thinking he's an innocent old man.[/QUOTE] He was a guard at the camp. Not the perpetrator of the deaths. He's not responsible for 28,000 deaths.
[QUOTE=Treybuchet;29796590]He was a guard at the camp. Not the perpetrator of the deaths. He's not responsible for 28,000 deaths.[/QUOTE] "As guard he took part in the murder of at least 28,000 people," he said. are you suggesting the court has fabricated evidence? he is clearly responsible or at least partially responsible for the murder of 28,000 people, not the whole 200,000 that were killed at the camp. drop this argument. he's been correctly convicted.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;29796631]"As guard he took part in the murder of at least 28,000 people," he said. are you suggesting the court has fabricated evidence? he is clearly responsible or at least partially responsible for the murder of 28,000 people, not the whole 200,000 that were killed at the camp. drop this argument. he's been correctly convicted.[/QUOTE] [b] "The court is convinced that the defendant... served as a guard at Sobibor from 27 March 1943 to mid-September 1943," presiding Judge Ralph Alt said. "As guard he took part in the murder of at least 28,000 people," he said. An estimated 250,000 people died in the gas chambers at Sobibor. Demjanjuk was convicted of being an accessory to the murder of the 28,060 people who were killed there while he was a guard. Judge Alt told the Associated Press news agency there were "no grounds" to hold him, adding: "It's the law, and so it's justice. I say he's guilty but it's not a final verdict." World Jewish Congress spokesman Michael Thaidigsmann responded by saying: "For us the important thing is that he got convicted. It's not up to an organisation like us to say whether he should be in jail or not." Prosecutors had argued he was recruited by the Germans to be an SS camp guard and that by working at a death camp he was a participant in the killings. No evidence was produced that he committed a specific crime. It was the first time such a legal argument was made in a German court. [/b] So, let's look at this. 1. They are convinced he served as a guard there. They are considering him an accessory to murder of everyone there.They even state that there is no evidence of a specific crime. In fact, there's no precedent for arguing that because someone worked at a death camp, they were a participant in the killings. 2. They state that there were "no grounds" to hold him, and that it's just the law and it's justice, despite there being no grounds. 3. In support of it being pure revenge: The jewish congress spokesman: "For us, the important thing is that he got convicted." They, as well as the judge state that it's not their decision to say whether or not he's guilty, it's just "justice". 4. Claiming someone's an accessory to murder of everyone who died there for working as a guard at a death camp is like saying that a man is responsible for the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki because he worked as a guard at the Manhattan Project.
What people do not know is that this guy had already been tried and sentenced to death in the 80's for roughly the same thing (Although they were after someone specific in his case "Ivan the Terrible" as they call him. An Israeli court then let him free. Now, it's not saying there could not be no evidence to pop up since then. But the thing is there really has not, unless I am missing something. There is no evidence that this man directly had his hand in any murder. Being pushed into forced service is not a good thing - and not everyone in this world is strong enough to say "I'll just take the bullet then" when confronted with "Work this camp or we'll shoot you." Honestly, I think the solid truth will likely never come out.
[QUOTE=Treybuchet;29796454]No, however this man didn't directly kill anyone. He was a guard. They are punishing him for 200,000 or so deaths, which obviously wasn't his crime. They feel hurt and want to get revenge, and that's it. If you killed people 70 years ago, and somehow evaded justice until now, you would still be arrested and punished, because you can't do that. However, they would be punishing you for the crime you actually committed, not the crime they are blaming on him.[/QUOTE] I understand that, my response was directed at his point of 'revenge', not the context of this individual case. But still, you can call it revenge or justice, it doesn't matter. Of course those who pursued in prosecuting the man felt "hurt".. that's expected to be honest. Whether he did it or not is a different discussion, and I would suppose you know considering what you said, but I'm not going to get into that.
[QUOTE=HkSniper;29797269]What people do not know is that this guy had already been tried and sentenced to death in the 80's for roughly the same thing (Although they were after someone specific in his case "Ivan the Terrible" as they call him. An Israeli court then let him free. Now, it's not saying there could not be no evidence to pop up since then. But the thing is there really has not, unless I am missing something. There is no evidence that this man directly had his hand in any murder. Being pushed into forced service is not a good thing - and not everyone in this world is strong enough to say "I'll just take the bullet then" when confronted with "Work this camp or we'll shoot you." Honestly, I think the solid truth will likely never come out.[/QUOTE] He was tried in Israel under suspicion he was "Ivan the Terrible" in Treblinka. He was found not guilty because there wasn't enough evidence it was him. This trial was judging him for being a guard in Sobibor.
[QUOTE=Raiskauskone V2;29778414]These trials are useless and only thing they achieve is revenge, and that gains nothing[/QUOTE] what else reason do you need?
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;29797469]what else reason do you need?[/QUOTE] I'd ask for less than revenge - just a conviction. Throwing him in prison will accomplish little at his age.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;29797469]what else reason do you need?[/QUOTE] Is revenge on someone who worked near something that happened 70 years ago really a good reason to throw an old man in prison?
apparently, according to posters in facepunch, saying 'No' to a fascist army ( Nazi's nonetheless) results in no consequences. amazing
[QUOTE=arleitiss;29792231]Basically yeah. Weird how people favor Nazi SS than jews[/QUOTE] It's just a common bandwagon effect, but i'm pretty sure they don't try to favour nazi's.
So if you worked as a janitor in death camps, you were a murderer too?
[QUOTE=Treybuchet;29798005]Is revenge on someone who worked near something that happened 70 years ago really a good reason to throw an old man in prison?[/QUOTE] I love how being a guard in a holocaust death camp becomes "working near something that happened". You guys are gold.
[QUOTE=Communist Nigga;29795280]Really? Why don't we punish the U.S. government for nuking 225,000 innocent civilians while we're at it? :downs:[/QUOTE] Yeah except the deployment of the nuclear weapons was required at the time to end the war quickly and attempting a systematic genocide of an entire race of people wasn't.
You guys should get a time machine, go back to the 1940's, and shake people's hands in Germany to tell them it's okay to say 'No' to the orders of the Nazi army since there's obviously no consequences at all denying a fascist government and army what they want. Not as if they'll use you an example and try you for treason for not doing your duty, oh no. Every guard, everyone who ever worked anywhere with swatiskas attached was a jew-hating monster with no conscious.
At the time it was legal. Can't put him on trial for this. Trial is a sham and an insult to justice systems everywhere. This is exactly what the Nazis would do.
[QUOTE=TH89;29798441]I love how being a guard in a holocaust death camp becomes "working near something that happened". You guys are gold.[/QUOTE] It was a stretch, admittedly. However, he was still only a guard. He wasn't exactly the man directly killing jews, and he was just under orders. [editline]13th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Craig Willmore;29798471]Yeah except the deployment of the nuclear weapons was required at the time to end the war quickly and attempting a systematic genocide of an entire race of people wasn't.[/QUOTE] It was not required to end the war. We could have invaded. Less destruction, death. We did it out of opportunism, and the second bomb was entirely unnecessary.
[QUOTE=Treybuchet;29798809] It was not required to end the war. We could have invaded. Less destruction, death. We did it out of opportunism, and the second bomb was entirely unnecessary.[/QUOTE] Completely wrong. The fact is, whether you like it or not, that more than quadruple the number of people who died in the atomic bombings would have died in an Invasion of Mainland Japan, where the fanatical civilian population was being trained to use guerrilla tactics. Here, these are just about the US casualties. [quote]In a letter sent to Gen. Curtis LeMay from Gen. Lauris Norstad, when LeMay assumed command of the B-29 force on Guam, Norstad told LeMay that if an invasion took place, it would cost the U.S. "half a million" dead. In a study done by the Joint Chiefs of Staff in April, the figures of 7.45 casualties/1,000 man-days and 1.78 fatalities/1,000 man-days were developed. This implied that a 90-day Olympic campaign would cost 456,000 casualties, including 109,000 dead or missing. If Coronet took another 90 days, the combined cost would be 1,200,000 casualties, with 267,000 fatalities The Battle of Okinawa ran up 72,000 U.S casualties in 82 days, of whom 12,510 were killed or missing. (This is conservative, because it excludes several thousand U.S. soldiers who died after the battle indirectly from their wounds.) The entire island of Okinawa is 464 square miles (1,200 km2). If the U.S. casualty rate during the invasion of Japan had only been 5 percent as high per unit area as it was at Okinawa, the United States would still have lost 297,000 soldiers (killed or missing) Nearly 500,000 Purple Heart medals were manufactured in anticipation of the casualties resulting from the invasion of Japan. To the present date, all the American military casualties of the sixty years following the end of World War II—including the Korean and Vietnam Wars—have not exceeded that number. In 2003, there were still 120,000 of these Purple Heart medals in stock. There are so many in surplus that combat units in Iraq and Afghanistan are able to keep Purple Hearts on-hand for immediate award to wounded soldiers on the field.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Treybuchet;29798809]It was not required to end the war. We could have invaded. Less destruction, death. We did it out of opportunism, and the second bomb was entirely unnecessary.[/QUOTE]Uuh no. There would have been far more destruction, as US troops in Operation Downfall would have had to fight their way through every village, town and city between them and Tokyo. During that time, firebombing would have likely continued, as well. Estimated fatality figures for US troops ranged from 100,000 to half a million. The second bomb was mainly to show the US has more where that came from as opposed to a one-off, but I partially agree that it was likely unnecessary. EDIT: bollocks, ninja'd.
[QUOTE=yuki;29779786]Russia gets to slide because they joined the Allies and helped us win the war. Without them, we may not have been as victorious, and if we fought against them, we might be speaking Russian right now. Sortof an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" type of a deal.[/QUOTE] If the Americans lost we would most likely be speaking German, if the Nazi's had more time to create their weapons they could of and would have taken over the world.
[QUOTE=killover;29798931]could of[/QUOTE] :frog:
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