• John Demjanjuk guilty of Nazi death camp murders
    191 replies, posted
[QUOTE=killover;29798931]If the Americans lost we would most likely be speaking German, if the Nazi's had more time to create their weapons they could of and would have taken over the world.[/QUOTE] The Allied war effort wasn't only the Americans. Just about every non-axis aligned European nation helped in the war effort against Germany. If America faltered, there was still a good chance the Allies would have won.
[QUOTE=killover;29798931]If the Americans lost we would most likely be speaking German, if the Nazi's had more time to create their weapons they could of and would have taken over the world.[/QUOTE]Do you mean, if they had lost against the Japanese? That would have pretty much halved the amount of troops committed to the Western Front, and allowed the Germans to concentrate more forces on the Eastern Front. Then there's the loss of Lend-Lease. If any of the big Allied nations (US, British Commonwealth (this includes their overseas territories at the time like Canada), USSR, possibly China) hadn't participated or lost during the war, there was a decent chance all would have fallen. That being said, the Soviets were on the path to continuous advance by the end of 1943, once they had gotten the commissars' fingers out of their arses and got their shit together. Massive Allied bombing of German industry and the aforementioned Lend-Lease aid were of great help to them. What i'm trying to get at in this mess of a post is, that the Allies were reliant on each other to varying extents. By comparison, the only 2 competent Axis nations was Germany and Japan, who pretty much made their own equipment for themselves (though the Germans did send them some uranium by U-boat to try and help them start a nuclear weapons program) Italy was generally quite useless, and cost Hitler time in putting Operation Barbarossa into effect.
[QUOTE=killover;29798931]could of[/QUOTE] At least maybe you'd use proper grammar in German, but I doubt it.
[QUOTE=Treybuchet;29799055]At least maybe you'd use proper grammar in German, but I doubt it.[/QUOTE]Hehe, reminds me of that scene in Monty Python's Life of Brian. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIAdHEwiAy8[/media]
[QUOTE=DasherDigital;29792249]I really like how you placed that comma. Subtly ruining the context of the sentence. But really, I'd say leave the man alone. He's 91, and by now, he must have regretted his actions if he had anything to do with the events. Besides, what's there to gain for anyone? If they absolutely feel a need to throw him in the slammer, then make him serve in an open prison.[/QUOTE] That's not the point. Germany's reputation has been forever stained by this guy. Modern Germany wants to do anything possible to show the world that anything like Hitler will never happen again and that they are not amused by it. Even flashing the siege hiel salute is an arrestable offense in Germany
[QUOTE=Mudbone;29799299]That's not the point. Germany's reputation has been forever stained by this guy. Modern Germany wants to do anything possible to show the world that anything like Hitler will never happen again and that they are not amused by it. Even flashing the siege hiel salute is an arrestable offense in Germany[/QUOTE] So by being Nazis they are proving that they aren't Nazis. Basically they haven't learned shit.
[QUOTE=GunFox;29799671]So by being Nazis they are proving that they aren't Nazis.[/QUOTE] Well, except for the genocide and horrific medical experiments and world conquest and stuff. [editline]13th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Treybuchet;29798809]It was a stretch, admittedly. However, he was still only a guard. He wasn't exactly the man directly killing jews, and he was just under orders.[/QUOTE] Guards at death camps killed jews all the time.
[QUOTE=TH89;29800027]Guards at death camps killed jews all the time.[/QUOTE]Do you mean shooting those trying to escape, or taking direct part in the various mass murder methods?
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;29801223]Do you mean shooting those trying to escape, or taking direct part in the various mass murder methods?[/QUOTE] Shooting people trying to escape, shooting people who did the wrong thing, beating people to death for asking for more food, etc etc. Lots of stuff.
[QUOTE=TH89;29801691]Shooting people trying to escape, shooting people who did the wrong thing, beating people to death for asking for more food, etc etc. Lots of stuff.[/QUOTE] Shooting people who tried to escape is his job. You aren't going to arrest a prison guard or a soldier for shooting a man who tries to escape custody. The rest of it? We can't viably prove he did it. No matter how many people he killed that way, there aren't any real records, and there's no proof he committed the mass murder.
[QUOTE=GunFox;29798561]At the time it was legal. Can't put him on trial for this. Trial is a sham and an insult to justice systems everywhere. This is exactly what the Nazis would do.[/QUOTE] are you kidding me
[QUOTE=GunFox;29798561]At the time it was legal. Can't put him on trial for this. Trial is a sham and an insult to justice systems everywhere. This is exactly what the Nazis would do.[/QUOTE] Yes, because the people putting this person on trial committed mass genocide. Did you think about that before you posted? [editline]14th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Treybuchet;29796984] So, let's look at this. 1. They are convinced he served as a guard there. They are considering him an accessory to murder of everyone there.They even state that there is no evidence of a specific crime. In fact, there's no precedent for arguing that because someone worked at a death camp, they were a participant in the killings. [/quote] How do you know that? Have you studied the law? [QUOTE=Treybuchet;29796984]2. They state that there were "no grounds" to hold him, and that it's just the law and it's justice, despite there being no grounds.[/quote] LOL There are no grounds to hold him pending his appeal as the judge believes that he will not be a flight risk. Nothing but the protection ofhis own rights. People are only held during their appeal if they're deemed a risk to the public. [QUOTE=Treybuchet;29796984]3. In support of it being pure revenge: The jewish congress spokesman: "For us, the important thing is that he got convicted." They, as well as the judge state that it's not their decision to say whether or not he's guilty, it's just "justice". [/quote] what... [QUOTE=Treybuchet;29796984]4. Claiming someone's an accessory to murder of everyone who died there for working as a guard at a death camp is like saying that a man is responsible for the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki because he worked as a guard at the Manhattan Project.[/QUOTE] no it's not. you join the SS. you joined and knowingly helped commit genocide.
How dare those selfish Jews try to try people for genocide
[QUOTE=DogGunn;29805381] no it's not. you join the SS. you joined and knowingly helped commit genocide.[/QUOTE] So what your saying is that the pilot who flew Enola Gay had no idea that he was dropping a bomb on a city? The flight crew that prepped the plane had no idea what it was for? it was all an accident? They hit some turbulence over the city and whoops a Atomic bomb fell out of the plane. [QUOTE=TH89;29805556]How dare those selfish Jews try to try people for genocide[/QUOTE] Yeah, well, thats just, like, your opinion, man
[QUOTE=DogGunn;29805381]Yes, because the people putting this person on trial committed mass genocide. Did you think about that before you posted? [editline]14th May 2011[/editline] How do you know that? Have you studied the law? [/QUOTE] He means that the Nazis, as fascists, would hold sham trials for people they didn't like, for purposes that definitely weren't "justice". And no, I haven't studied the law. In fact, I'm gathering this from the article, which directly states that there are no precedents for something like this, this being "if you worked as a guard at a death camp, you are suddenly an accessory to the murder of everyone contained within." [editline]13th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=TH89;29805556]How dare those selfish Jews try to try people for genocide[/QUOTE] Alright. He's an old Russian guy. He joined up after he got captured because there wasn't much chance of him being free otherwise, maybe they offered him a better deal. He became a guard at a death camp. Essentially, what they are doing here is attempting to try him for something that was outside his control and a choice between life and death for him. It's not like he was the head of the SS. He was a guard. He didn't do shit, and attempting to get him now, 70 years later, for something as utterly ridiculous as this, is just nonsense. It's just a victor's court, delayed by 70 years. What's next, are we going to try old soviet officials for all the bullshit they did back then? [editline]13th May 2011[/editline] In fact, even back in the old trials for death camps, guards got at most about 10 years, often times less. [editline]13th May 2011[/editline] I suppose it is a bit reasonable in that light, the sentencing, but still, it's all a bit preposterous.
[QUOTE=balloninator;29806184]So what your saying is that the pilot who flew Enola Gay had no idea that he was dropping a bomb on a city? The flight crew that prepped the plane had no idea what it was for? it was all an accident? They hit some turbulence over the city and whoops a Atomic bomb fell out of the plane.[/QUOTE] LOL? what the fuck are you talking about? [editline]14th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Treybuchet;29806251]He means that the Nazis, as fascists, would hold sham trials for people they didn't like, for purposes that definitely weren't "justice".[/quote] Which is true, but that's not what this is. [QUOTE=Treybuchet;29806251]And no, I haven't studied the law. In fact, I'm gathering this from the article, which directly states that there are no precedents for something like this, this being "if you worked as a guard at a death camp, you are suddenly an accessory to the murder of everyone contained within."[/quote] Fair enough.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;29806514]LOL? what the fuck are you talking about?[/QUOTE] your saying he knew what he was doing working at a Death camp. while those on the Manhattan project are excusable for some reason.
[QUOTE=balloninator;29806602]your saying he knew what he was doing working at a Death camp. while those on the Manhattan project are excusable for some reason.[/QUOTE] you join the SS as a nazi... comparing the manhattan project to a bunch of nazis is fallacious. these people had to accept the nazi doctrine and swear allegiance to hitler.
the only reason he's being convicted is because germany wants somebody to blame this is wrong
[QUOTE=DogGunn;29806688]you join the SS as a nazi... comparing the manhattan project to a bunch of nazis is fallacious. these people had to accept the nazi doctrine and swear allegiance to hitler.[/QUOTE] Alright, imagine yourself. You're a Russian guy. You probably don't speak German incredibly well anyway. You're a prisoner of war. You're going to die. You get offered a chance to live, by joining your captors. You have to swear allegiance to hitler, maybe. What do you do? Die a horrible death as a prisoner, or join your captors for a hope at living, and become a guard? [editline]13th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=DogGunn;29806514] Which is true, but that's not what this is. [/QUOTE] Yes it is. That's exactly what this is. They're holding a trial for a 91 year old man who was, after being captured by the Nazis, made to work as a guard at a death camp, and blaming him as an accessory to murder for 20,000 people. Then, they only give him 5 years in jail as a sentence. What the hell else is it? If it's Justice, he'd be sentenced longer. If it were rehabilitation, there'd be no sentence. If it were showing other Nazis that we don't accept this, then it's a bit late for that, isn't it? It's pure revenge, under the facade of "Justice". The Nazis did the same. Fake trial, take out someone you don't like or get revenge on someone under the facade of "Justice".
choices: a) stay POW till you die of starvation or execution by the Nazi's or b) join SS as a last resort option merely as a guard with no evidence of him personally partaking in it and get trialed for being a murderer damn, looks like he was screwed either way, he should've asked Facepunch and he would knew that denying offers from a fascist army would be fine with them.
Go on streets now with your friend. Your friend takes out a gun and shoots 50 people. You stand there just holding a gun without using it (like guard would). You would both get arrested and perhaps jailed. Even if you personally didn't shoot anyone but your friend did, yous till were with him.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;29806688]you join the SS as a nazi... comparing the manhattan project to a bunch of nazis is fallacious. these people had to accept the nazi doctrine and swear allegiance to hitler.[/QUOTE] Well the Manhattan project was dedicated to the construction of nuculear weapons which is just as bad, if not worse.
[QUOTE=arleitiss;29807790]Go on streets now with your friend. Your friend takes out a gun and shoots 50 people. You stand there just holding a gun without using it (like guard would). You would both get arrested and perhaps jailed. Even if you personally didn't shoot anyone but your friend did, yous till were with him.[/QUOTE] except if you didn't stand there holding a gun (like a guard would), you'd either starve to death or be executed by a fascist army that doesn't mind committing a genocide, and certainly wouldn't tolerate dissidents
[QUOTE=balloninator;29807963]Well the Manhattan project was dedicated to the construction of nuculear weapons which is just as bad, if not worse.[/QUOTE] that is your opinion that it was bad if not worse, but then again, what are you suggesting? because the us can get away with it, so should he? no judicial system should ever work that way. [editline]14th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=lolwutdude;29807025]damn, looks like he was screwed either way, he should've asked Facepunch and he would knew that denying offers from a fascist army would be fine with them.[/QUOTE] lol he had his choices. they weren't necessarily made under duress. he now deals with the consequences. [editline]14th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Baldr 2.0;29807105]now: "They forced them to starve to death! Evil Nazis!"[/QUOTE] wtf? are you serious? the camps where the nazi deemed untermensch were treated poorly and killed... to suggest that the bombing of convoys to the concentration camps caused a situation is terrible.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;29808002] [editline]14th May 2011[/editline] lol he had his choices. they weren't [b]necessarily made under duress.[/b] he now deals with the consequences.[/QUOTE] no, a [b][i]Russian prisoner of war[/b][/i] decided to join his enemies by becoming guard for shits and giggles to kill jews, at no point whatsoever was he under duress like i said, he was fucked either way, if he didn't join the guards, he'd be murdered. if he did, he'd be tried for murder. what a wonderful world
You're assuming that he was under duress and you're also assuming he'd be killed if he didn't join the guards. All assumptions.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;29809329]You're assuming that he was under duress and you're also assuming he'd be killed if he didn't join the guards. All assumptions.[/QUOTE] you're assuming he wasn't under duress and you're also assuming he killed people while he was a guard, all assumptions, but logic states a russian prisoner of war doesn't suddenly switch sides to his enemies who were a fascist genocidal country that wouldn't hesitate to kill POW's or dissidents unless he were pressured to all they have on this dude is that he was a simple guard in the death camp, and to say he was accessory to murder is outrageous despite having no evidence he helped killed anyone
and thus he got a simple sentence. problem? (there was no evidence that he committed the crime (of murder) - don't misinterpret that, as you have) [editline]14th May 2011[/editline] and what about the SS identity card? was he forced to join the SS?
[QUOTE=DogGunn;29809541]and thus he got a simple sentence. problem?[/QUOTE] he's convicted as an accessory to twenty thousand murders when there's no proof he was
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