doggunn, i don't think you understand how russian POWs were treated during WWII
he most definitely did not have a choice
[QUOTE=lolwutdude;29809577]he's convicted as an accessory to twenty thousand murders when there's no proof he was[/QUOTE]
what? there was no proof that he did it, not that he helped.
plus, he was part of an SS unit, not just the generic soviet guard unit like you suggest.
[editline]14th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;29809641]doggunn, i don't think you understand how russian POWs were treated during WWII
he most definitely did not have a choice[/QUOTE]
regardless of choice, he was more than a generic guard.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;29809669]regardless of choice, he was more than a generic guard.[/QUOTE]
so uh
howsabout that evidence
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;29809762]so uh
howsabout that evidence[/QUOTE]
Central to the prosecution's case was an SS identity card indicating Demjanjuk was posted to Sobibor. The defence cast doubts on the authenticity of the card but court experts said it appeared genuine.
All SS members involved in the concentration camps were criminally liable for what they did. this case has followed precedent set before it.
so explain to me how you know that he wasn't conscripted
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;29809812]so explain to me how you know that he wasn't conscripted[/QUOTE]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trawniki_concentration_camp#Training_prisoners_of_war_for_Nazi_work[/url]
[quote]The POWs were recruited by lining them up, and asking for volunteers[1].[/quote]
[QUOTE=DogGunn;29809942][URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trawniki_concentration_camp#Training_prisoners_of_war_for_Nazi_work[/URL][/QUOTE]
i'd volunteer too, if i knew how russians would be treated in a pow camp
read the book Hart's War, it gives a pretty good idea of how soviet soldiers were treated
then it's not under duress is it? it was a choice made by him.
so imagine someone's holding a gun to your head
if you say yes, you live
if you say no, you die
what do you do?
but that is duress... that isn't what occurred.
so apparently you don't know about how almost every soviet soldier captured was executed/worked to death
the whole unit was convicted at one point. if the choice was not made under duress, then there is a difference, however it was never established that it was.
regardless, this case only follows precedent. any ss member involved in the concentration camps were criminally liable.
man those ss guys had a damn good sense of fasci-I mean fashion
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;29810073]i'd volunteer too, if i knew how russians would be treated in a pow camp
[/QUOTE]
Which is why it's a good idea to create legal disincentives for people who volunteer for genocide, since that apparently isn't enough.
[QUOTE=TH89;29823232]Which is why it's a good idea to create legal disincentives for people who volunteer for genocide, since that apparently isn't enough.[/QUOTE]
Technically he's not volunteering for the genocide part specifically, just the "oh hey i get food and shelter and i live, but i have to guard some genocide part"
[QUOTE=Treybuchet;29832939]Technically he's not volunteering for the genocide part specifically, just the "oh hey i get food and shelter and i live, but i have to guard some genocide part"[/QUOTE]
Oh okay, food and shelter, with a side order of genocide?
The wars over. Some people just don't get that.
This mans actions are inexcusable. Regardless of whether he should be jailed or not, it is good that he has been found guilty of his heinous crimes.
[QUOTE=TH89;29832948]Oh okay, food and shelter, with a side order of genocide?[/QUOTE]
I'll take the genocide over easy, with a hint of fascism sprinkled over the top.
[QUOTE=lulzbocksV2;29833057]This mans actions are inexcusable. Regardless of whether he should be jailed or not, it is good that he has been found guilty of his heinous crimes.[/QUOTE]
what heinous crimes
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;29834430]what heinous crimes[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]An estimated 250,000 people died in the gas chambers at Sobibor. Demjanjuk was convicted of being an accessory to the murder of the 28,060 people who were killed there while he was a guard.[/QUOte]
why is this thread still going?
Because Lord of Ears has short-term amnesia
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;29780184]it's funny, cuz he was a prisoner
he was forced into acting as a guard
nazis used captured red army soldiers as essentially slaves very often
it's a shame that those lucky enough to not be executed just have to face more bullshit later in life[/QUOTE]
Actually you have no way of knowing that. It's just as likely that he had a lot of fun and enjoyed killing jews as it is that he was a prisoner and had no choice. The latter situation is the only one you'll hear him tell whether either of them are true.
I don't think he should be jailed. whether he wanted to work in the death camp or not he would have had no choice but to comply. The people who are guilty of those murders are the people who were in charge I.E Hitler. But because he did comply he is guilty of assistant and he should be convicted for it. He has been convicted now so that should be that.
[quote=TH89]An estimated 250,000 people died in the gas chambers at Sobibor. Demjanjuk was convicted of being an accessory to the murder of the 28,060 people who were killed there while he was a guard.[/quote]
and nobody will ever know if he had anything to do with those murders
[editline]15th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Insignificant;29855993]Actually you have no way of knowing that. It's just as likely that he had a lot of fun and enjoyed killing jews as it is that he was a prisoner and had no choice. The latter situation is the only one you'll hear him tell whether either of them are true.[/QUOTE]
if he had so much fun killing jews, why did he join the good guys?
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;29856792]and nobody will ever know if he had anything to do with those murders[/quote]
the precedent (in relation to SS guards) is enough to secure a conviction.
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;29856792]if he had so much fun killing jews, why did he join the good guys?[/QUOTE]
huh? did you forget how the concentration camps were kept under wraps?
[QUOTE=DogGunn;29857355]huh? did you forget how the concentration camps were kept under wraps?[/QUOTE]
concentration camps were in general knowledge among the allied nations by 1941, if not earlier
[url]http://www.ushmm.org/research/library/faq/details.php?topic=01#05[/url]
[QUOTE=DogGunn;29805381]Yes, because the people putting this person on trial committed mass genocide. Did you think about that before you posted?[/QUOTE]
Just because I reference the Nazi party, it doesn't mean that I am referencing their tendency to commit genocide. It may be that I am referencing something like their fascist tendencies and the fact that they ignore the justice system and strip people of their rights in order to accomplish their goals. Y'know, the things that allowed the Nazis to eventually kill a bunch of people?
So yeah, I did think before I posted, thank you.
Again: Legal at the time. He broke no laws.
Retroactively putting non-lawmakers on trial is a fucking insult to the legal system. Furthermore the trial couldn't have possibly had shit for proper evidence. A card identifying him as an SS soldier is fucking circumstantial at best. Fucking pathetic.
I'm sorry that I actually understand how a goddamn justice system has to operate. It isn't all pretty roses and unicorns. You let bad people walk so that innocent people are not wrongly imprisoned. You do not put regular people on trial for following the law. The leaders, the officers, the policy makers, THESE are the people we hold responsible for this sort of thing, and we have long since put them away or executed those responsible.
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;29857425]concentration camps were in general knowledge among the allied nations by 1941, if not earlier
[url]http://www.ushmm.org/research/library/faq/details.php?topic=01#05[/url][/QUOTE]
yes, thanks for pointing out that the americans and british had knowledge of this. he was a soviet, plus, he was tasked to defend his nation - nothing to do with the concentration camps.
[editline]16th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=GunFox;29857501]Just because I reference the Nazi party, it doesn't mean that I am referencing their tendency to commit genocide. It may be that I am referencing something like their fascist tendencies and the fact that they ignore the justice system and strip people of their rights in order to accomplish their goals. Y'know, the things that allowed the Nazis to eventually kill a bunch of people?
So yeah, I did think before I posted, thank you.[/quote]
it's one thing to suggest that the trial procedures for this case have been flawed, but it's another thing to suggest that "it was legal at the time".
[QUOTE=GunFox;29857501]Again: Legal at the time. He broke no laws.
Retroactively putting non-lawmakers on trial is a fucking insult to the legal system.[/quote]
No it's not really (considering that all trials are retroactive, anyway). What's with this "it was legal at the time" argument. Does that make his actions okay and not punishable? His punishment is tiny compared to the people who were "lawmakers".
Sometimes it is necessary to punish retroactively, so in the future there are precedents that help ensure events like that don't occur again.
[QUOTE=GunFox;29857501]Furthermore the trial couldn't have possibly had shit for proper evidence. A card identifying him as an SS soldier is fucking circumstantial at best. Fucking pathetic. [/quote]
How is it circumstantial? Do you know where the SS identity card was found or how it was found, or are you just making stuff up?
[QUOTE=GunFox;29857501]I'm sorry that I actually understand how a goddamn justice system has to operate.[/quote]
Eeek. Really? A "goddamn justice system"? What are you talking about? This isn't about a justice system.
[QUOTE=GunFox;29857501]It isn't all pretty roses and unicorns. You let bad people walk so that innocent people are not wrongly imprisoned.[/quote]
What the hell are you talking about? I'm assuming that the bad people you're referring to are not innocent.
[QUOTE=GunFox;29857501]You do not put regular people on trial for following the law. The leaders, the officers, the policy makers, THESE are the people we hold responsible for this sort of thing, and we have long since put them away or executed those responsible.[/QUOTE]
You know that all the SS Concentration Camp guards were charged, arrested and punished for "just doing their job"? What do you have to say about that if that's the way you feel? Are they wrong in doing so?
[QUOTE=DogGunn;29858192]yes, thanks for pointing out that the americans and british had knowledge of this. he was a soviet, plus, he was tasked to defend his nation - nothing to do with the concentration camps.
[editline]16th May 2011[/editline]
it's one thing to suggest that the trial procedures for this case have been flawed, but it's another thing to suggest that "it was legal at the time".
[/quote]
It was legal at the time. They weren't bound by any international agreements against this sort of thing. They were in power, and as such operating such a camp was perfectly legal. It may not have been right, but you can't retroactively try people for crimes. Ex Post Facto is a poor semblance of justice.
[quote]
No it's not really (considering that all trials are retroactive, anyway). What's with this "it was legal at the time" argument. Does that make his actions okay and not punishable? His punishment is tiny compared to the people who were "lawmakers".
[/quote]
His actions aren't okay, but that doesn't mean we can throw out basic standards of justice and law to punish them.
[quote]
Sometimes it is necessary to punish retroactively, so in the future there are precedents that help ensure events like that don't occur again.
[/quote]
It's never okay to punish retroactively. The people who do this sort of thing aren't going to be stopped by precedents like that anyway. And punishing retroactively sets a bad precedent in and of itself.
[quote]
How is it circumstantial? Do you know where the SS identity card was found or how it was found, or are you just making stuff up?
[/quote]
An SS identity card only states that he maybe joined the SS and had a job. However, you how to infer that
a. The card is real and contains legitimate information.
b. It suggests he may have worked at a death camp, but not that he specifically did any crime involving it.
It's circumstantial because it doesn't directly prove that he did a crime, it simply shows that the circumstances seem to point in that direction. It's not hard evidence, and if you're convicting a guy of something like this, I'd argue that you need more evidence than that.
[quote]
Eeek. Really? A "goddamn justice system"? What are you talking about? This isn't about a justice system.
[/quote]
I'm glad we're all in agreement. This is a purely revenge system. And this is done through a justice system.
[quote]
What the hell are you talking about? I'm assuming that the bad people you're referring to are not innocent.
[/quote]
He means that sometimes, the man who commits a crime and is guilty has to be let go, simply because the laws don't work for it, and you can't get it. You let the bad guy go, because if you didn't, the justice system would make it easier for an innocent man to become convicted as well.
[quote]
You know that all the SS Concentration Camp guards were charged, arrested and punished for "just doing their job"? What do you have to say about that if that's the way you feel? Are they wrong in doing so?[/QUOTE]
It's funny. Turns out that the defense they had is valid psychologically. They were inherently revenge courts, punishing people for violating laws and rules that didn't exist. They deserved punishment, sure, but they shouldn't have gotten it that way.
[editline]16th May 2011[/editline]
A note on circumstantial evidence: It's not necessarily worse than direct evidence, I just wanted to clear up that this was definitely circumstantial evidence. In this case, I'd argue that this was a bit flimsy, but still.
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