• German trans girl ‘to be institutionalised’
    892 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Tools;34485992]She's obviously aware that puberty would physically ruin her, no wonder she's suicidal.[/QUOTE] The thing is, it is the fathers own actions that are causing this, Going through the normal procedures, she would be going to a therapist and the therapist helping her. not sent to an institute meant to force her into one gender role.
[QUOTE=Triumph Forks;34485915]Now people's rigid worldview is put into question and they violently reject what you say and that their limited way of seeing things is right or something like that[/QUOTE] True... it just seems that MOST men (rather few women) seem to think that just becaue *I* want to get rid of my penis means that THEIR penis is threatened in some way... Guys... this is MY body... I am not going to rip your balls off just because I don't like mine... how ridiculous would that be? (If you don't like your boss, do you go to other companies and vandalise their boss's car?)
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;34485964]Again, when you were eleven were you unclear about whether you were a boy or girl?[/QUOTE] When I was eleven I didn't even think about the possibility of being anything but a boy. I had a penis so I was a boy. That's what I was thinking. I wasn't clear or unclear, I didn't even consider these adjectives to apply.
[QUOTE=Atlessa;34485876]Know what? I agree. A man is a man. BUT: I am NOT a man, despite being owner to a penis. Now what?[/QUOTE] That was sarcasm. It's thisispain, he's most definitely on our side of the argument
[QUOTE=Atlessa;34486045]True... it just seems that MOST men (rather few women) seem to think that just becaue *I* want to get rid of my penis means that THEIR penis is threatened in some way... Guys... this is MY body... I am not going to rip your balls off just because I don't like mine... how ridiculous would that be? (If you don't like your boss, do you go to other companies and vandalise their boss's car?)[/QUOTE] To be honest I am kind of conservative about this in a way that I am just so damn lazy I don't want to have to worry about the chromosomes in the cute face I am attracted to.
[QUOTE=Killuah;34486046]When I was eleven I didn't even think about the possibility of being anything but a boy. I had a penis so I was a boy. That's what I was thinking. I wasn't clear or unclear, I didn't even consider these adjectives to apply.[/QUOTE] And for a Male to female transgensder at that age, they dont think about it either, they know they are a girl, but thier body is saying otherwise.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;34486064]That was sarcasm. It's thisispain, he's most definitely on our side of the argument[/QUOTE] That may well be, I never stated (or implied) otherwise. I simply agred... Or did I? *suddenly unsure* It is late here in deutschland xD
[QUOTE=nekosune;34486096]And for a Male to female transgensder at that age, they dont think about it either, they know they are a girl, but thier body is saying otherwise.[/QUOTE] You missunderstood me. In this age there wasn't even the possibility for me to judge my gender by anything but what my body said.
[QUOTE=Killuah;34486145]You missunderstood me. In this age there wasn't even the possibility for me to judge my gender by anything but what my body said.[/QUOTE] There is plenty, Your name, your clothes, how people refer to you, who your friends are, What you are saying there is young children do not act differently weather male or female.
I think the point Nekosune is trying to make: This girls isn't questioning her gender. Her father is. [editline]1st February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Killuah;34486087]To be honest I am kind of conservative about this in a way that I am just so damn lazy I don't want to have to worry about the chromosomes in the cute face I am attracted to.[/QUOTE] I wish all guys, nay, humans would think like that. Assuming it means: if I find that girl pretty, I don't care if she may have been born with a little extra between her legs XD
[QUOTE=xxncxx;34485718]that's like saying calling an african american a racial slur, and when they get offended, you say that they imply a degree of self-importance you know how bigoted that sounds?[/QUOTE] It's nothing like that. Like I said before, 'he' or 'she' are not derogatory terms by anyone's definition. And don't mention that It's about context. No one uses the words 'he' or 'she' to offend anyone, you'd have to imply they are bad things to be, and no one's done that either. Now 'nigger' implys inferiority and refers to deep rooted prejudice and discrimination, where as 'he' 'she' 'him' 'her' don't. Whether you refer to someone by their gender or by their sex is entirely personal preferrence, there are no official standards regarding that. Don't take the moral highground so you can justify everything you say as being right. It's a matter of opinion. Neither of us is more bigoted than the other here.
[QUOTE=Atlessa;34486045]True... it just seems that MOST men (rather few women) seem to think that just becaue *I* want to get rid of my penis means that THEIR penis is threatened in some way... Guys... this is MY body... I am not going to rip your balls off just because I don't like mine... how ridiculous would that be? (If you don't like your boss, do you go to other companies and vandalise their boss's car?)[/QUOTE] I am not an island. A huge part of my self consciousness comes from the knowledge of my relation to society and its members and by the trust I can put in its rules and borders. I am not learning how to grow wheat because I know society cares for that. That is social relation security. Society( in general) ensures me to rely on differences between genders. That gives me the security I need to fulfill the role I was given( and that I have taken) because when I know the rules(aka women are female, men are male) I can play by them. Of course the fall of these set rules confuses the fuck out of me and that's where you breaking the rules endangers my security. Of course I am afraid of that. But I'll be damned, I can not rule out everything I dislike. I can try to cope with the new situation. But just as you hope that people try to understand you I hope you try to understand that I am not very comfortable and insecure by doing so.
I am not breaking the rules, neither is it my intention. I am a woman. There is no less than three doctors and one judge who confirmed this in writing. Going by your "rules-theory" (which I am not sure if I understood it the way you intended): -It would be my job to bear children. This is out of question due to reasons neither I, nor anyone else, has control over. I am not the only woman who can't bear children either. -It would be common for me to wear my hair long, put on some make-up, and dress nicely. I do that. Though I know plenty women who don't so... humm... I can't think of any others, but I think I made my point. Also keep in mind that most, if not all, gender-based "rules" of society are not as clearly defined as they have been less than 100 years ago: -Women serve in the army -Men watch the kids -Angela Merkel is Bundeskanzlerin the list goes on. At this point I realise I think I misread your "rules-theory" but maybe not?
[QUOTE=Atlessa;34486496]I am not breaking the rules, neither is it my intention. I am a woman. There is no less than three doctors and one judge who confirmed this in writing. Going by your "rules-theory" (which I am not sure if I understood it the way you intended): -It would be my job to bear children. This is out of question due to reasons neither I, nor anyone else, has control over. I am not the only woman who can't bear children either. -It would be common for me to wear my hair long, put on some make-up, and dress nicely. I do that. Though I know plenty women who don't so... humm... I can't think of any others, but I think I made my point. Also keep in mind that most, if not all, gender-based "rules" of society are not as clearly defined as they have been less than 100 years ago: -Women serve in the army -Men watch the kids -Angela Merkel is Bundeskanzlerin the list goes on. At this point I realise I think I misread your "rules-theory" but maybe not?[/QUOTE] Partly. I didn't mean it to be rules of behaviour but rather "things I can be sure of" Very primitive "guidelines". Like "if it has boobs and behaves like a woman I will be able to have normal kids with her" Sorry if that sounds dull but that's what it boils down too. I am not even sure about the truth of that either. And that's where I get confused by the clash of the very conservative circumstances I've been brought up with and the liberal goals I set to myself by thinking. Your genderchangeq interferes with the things I once took as hard facts(penis=man). I have to THINK about that. I can not take it as given. That makes me insecure. And that makes the father in the OP insecure. The difference: I can cope with that. I change my mindset, although it might be uncomfortable. The father doesn't.
[QUOTE=nekosune;34486019]The thing is, it is the fathers own actions that are causing this, Going through the normal procedures, she would be going to a therapist and the therapist helping her. not sent to an institute meant to force her into one gender role.[/QUOTE] I know the normal procedures, however if the child's in such pain then I see no reason why her dad's even got a word in this case. Suicidal threads are caused by being unsatisfied with your life, and when she'd like to live her life differently than what her father wants her to, then obviously that's the problem, her mother needs to be the one in charge of the child. [editline]1st February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Killuah;34486707]Partly. I didn't mean it to be rules of behaviour but rather "things I can be sure of" Very primitive "guidelines". Like "if it has boobs and behaves like a woman I will be able to have normal kids with her" Sorry if that sounds dull but that's what it boils down too. I am not even sure about the truth of that either. And that's where I get confused by the clash of the very conservative circumstances I've been brought up with and the liberal goals I set to myself by thinking. Your genderchangeq interferes with the things I once took as hard facts(penis=man). I have to THINK about that. I can not take it as given. That makes me insecure. And that makes the father in the OP insecure. The difference: I can cope with that. I change my mindset, although it might be uncomfortable. The father doesn't.[/QUOTE] Surely this is very confusing for her father, and in his generation of living he probably never even heard of such thing as transgender. That doesn't change the fact that he should step in and ruin his child's life because of his beliefs. If I were to put you in a cage, simply because that's what I think is best for you, you wouldn't agree if you though otherwise, and forcing it upon you would certainly not change your opinion, but simply force insanity.
This child clearly needs psychological help.
[QUOTE=Tools;34486817]I know the normal procedures, however if the child's in such pain then I see no reason why her dad's even got a word in this case. Suicidal threads are caused by being unsatisfied with your life, and when she'd like to live her life differently than what her father wants her to, then obviously that's the problem, her mother needs to be the one in charge of the child. [editline]1st February 2012[/editline] Surely this is very confusing for her father, and in his generation of living he probably never even heard of such thing as transgender. That doesn't change the fact that he should step in and ruin his child's life because of his beliefs. If I were to put you in a cage, simply because that's what I think is best for you, you wouldn't agree if you though otherwise, and forcing it upon you would certainly not change your opinion, but simply force insanity.[/QUOTE] We agree on that. I am just trying to understand the father based on what I know about me and my ways of thinking. It's better than just thinking " this guy is an asshole" because once we understand him we can deal with him and more importantly: people like him. And that way I hope I can deal with myself a little better too. God I sound so idealistic :(
[QUOTE=coolsteve;34486888]This child clearly needs psychological help.[/QUOTE] Yeah, it's not like she's got the opinion of multiple practicing doctors and psychiatrists who have all diagnosed her with Gender Dysphoria as is necessary to prescribe hormones! Wait.
[QUOTE=Ray-The-Sun;34486985]Yeah, it's not like she's got the opinion of multiple practicing doctors and psychiatrists who have all diagnosed her with Gender Dysphoria as is necessary to prescribe hormones! Wait.[/QUOTE] So now we know his symptom, why would anyone in their right mind continue to feed this child's delusion?
[QUOTE=Killuah;34486956]We agree on that. I am just trying to understand the father based on what I know about me and my ways of thinking. It's better than just thinking " this guy is an asshole" because once we understand him we can deal with him and more importantly: people like him. And that way I hope I can deal with myself a little better too. God I sound so idealistic :([/QUOTE] Honestly I think it's the respect in the male's world. Imagine the unbelievable joy of a man withnessing his son's birth, holding him in his arms. The incredible forces of love and respect passing through the father as his son's born. All of this is "destroyed" in his eyes as his son suddenly turns into a "freak" if you will, and I imagine it can be heartbroken. (Sorry for the choice of words but I had to discripe it somehow :frown:) I remember once my father told me he was more proud of me than my sister, because I was "his boy", and changing that imagine into what he's grown up with to be stereotypically as wrong as it gets, it would probably destroy my dad. That's also why I personally haven't jumped the closet towards him yet, I'm waiting for him to reach the age where he can't be anything but proud of his family.
[QUOTE=coolsteve;34487064]So now we know his symptom, why would anyone in their right mind continue to feed this child's delusion?[/QUOTE] Please don't argue against things you know nothing about. There is no delusion. The child's gender identity is female and nothing can change that. Your "solution" would be to either make the child suffer a lifetime of having a female gender but being trapped in a male sex, or your "solution" could be the same as the father's, which is to break the child mentally to a point where ironically the child would become delusional about her sexual identity.
[QUOTE=Lolkork;34482483]I believe that the gender is determined by physical means because that's really what you see first. I wouldn't identify a man who looks like a man as a woman because that would be an inaccurate description.[/QUOTE]If a person wants to be of a different gender, that's their fucking business. And [i]forcing[/i] a person to live their life not the way they want, going so far as putting them into a mental institution just because they disagree with that person's opinion is terrible.
[QUOTE=coolsteve;34487064]So now we know his symptom, why would anyone in their right mind continue to feed this child's delusion?[/QUOTE] you're not very cool, steve. your name is a lie.
Also, it doesn't matter if it's because of hormones or whatever. The person WANTS to do that, that's all that should matter, in my opinion.
[QUOTE=Ezhik;34489641]If a person wants to be of a different gender, that's their fucking business. And [i]forcing[/i] a person to live their life not the way they want, going so far as putting them into a mental institution just because they disagree with that person's opinion is terrible.[/QUOTE] It's not because they disagree, it's because the kid is making suicide threats.
[QUOTE=Red scout?;34490149]It's not because they disagree, it's because the kid is making suicide threats.[/QUOTE] The kid is making suicide threats over her father trying to force her to be a guy.
[QUOTE=Ezhik;34489743]Also, it doesn't matter if it's because of hormones or whatever. The person WANTS to do that, that's all that should matter, in my opinion.[/QUOTE] It's not really based on desire to change one's gender identity, but a deep innate feeling of what you are.
[QUOTE=acds;34482073]It's a guy. He can live whatever fairy tale he wants, he was born a guy and will always be.[/QUOTE] Haha oh wow. I can't take you seriously either. I'm not allowed to live who I should be? Some people. I never realized that there were so many bigots when it came to transgenderism on this forum. Most of you are okay with being LGB but when it comes to the T some go full retard [not calling anyone out on this.]
[QUOTE=asteroidrules;34482310]Poor girl, can anyone say "abusive father" in Deutsch?[/QUOTE] Deutschbag.
[QUOTE=OrionChronicles;34481970]people say 'only in America' I'm now saying 'only in Europe'[/QUOTE] or you could just say only on earth since i'm pretty sure astronauts don't do any of this
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