[QUOTE=Jo The Shmo;34495927]if you were subbing in gays or blacks you would have said
"He's a gay. he can live whatever fairy tale he wants, but he will always be a gay"
not adding that part about "men should only sleep with women"[/QUOTE]
it's still analogous, calling a man who sleeps with men wrong isn't any different from calling someone who identifies as the other gender wrong
[QUOTE=RobbL;34495914]You do realise how hypocritical you sound?[/QUOTE]
Why should we take the moral high ground against a bigot that ignores scientific studies and evidence and continues his hatred?
[QUOTE=Jo The Shmo;34495927]if you were subbing in gays or blacks you would have said
"He's a gay. he can live whatever fairy tale he wants, but he will always be a gay"
not adding that part about "men should only sleep with women"[/QUOTE]
Actually it would be more talking about a gay man saying "He's straight. he can live whatever fairy tale he wants, but he will always be straight" using the logic that because the body was meant for heterosexual sex it doesn't matter what the man identifies himself as.
[QUOTE=Jo The Shmo;34495927]if you were subbing in gays or blacks you would have said
"He's a gay. he can live whatever fairy tale he wants, but he will always be a gay"[/QUOTE]
also, since gay people [i]are[/i] objectively gay and your statement here would be true it kind of sounds like you're voicing agreement with acds's post
and why my example was more analogous to his than yours
[QUOTE=RobbL;34495773]What do you mean? I've just been talking about transgenders who have [I]not[/I] gone through sex reassignment surgery. If someone's gender is female but their sex is male, obviously to anyone else they look like a man[/QUOTE]
Hormone Replacement Therapy actually helps a shitload for that, as well as shit like makeup or how one wears their hair, or glasses. hell, even posture and gait have an impact.
What's in their pants, however, has much less of an impact on how male or female they look. unless they're naked of course.
[QUOTE=RobbL;34495773]What do you mean? I've just been talking about transgenders who have [I]not[/I] gone through sex reassignment surgery. If someone's gender is female but their sex is male, obviously to anyone else they look like a man[/QUOTE]
Atlessa is yet to have the surgery, yet she looks female, what you fail to realise, is unlike what familly guy and South park show, it is not one quick surgery and suddenly look female, it is a long process of hormones etc, and the surgery is the last step usually thanks to psycologist limits, after at LEAST a year of living full time female, all the surgery does is alter the crotch genital region.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;34495880]Nobody is asking you to never offend anyone, but we are asking you to take steps to avoid doing so whenever possible. Right now you're willing to offend many people for the sake of ONE LETTER. Why?
I used to think the same way you did. Up until I was 14 or 15 I was the same way. [i]Don't like being called a faggot? Deal with it, faggot.[/i]
Then I grew the fuck up. I don't make excuses for myself - I was just a total shitlord. I don't accept excuses from other people doing similar things, either. Are you also just a shitlord?[/QUOTE]
Except I'm not calling anyone a derogatory term (no, using "he" is not a derogatory term, it can be viewed as such but so can any word). It's more like I'm calling someone homosexual and they want to be called bisexual. My intent is not to offend, but I won't start changing words because people find it offensive, again there will always be someone that finds something offensive, it never ends.
Also if someone does say "I'm transsexual, could you please use "She"?" then yeah I'll probably do that. Tell me "NAZI SCUM OF THE EARTH" then yeah no, I'm not going to change a thing.
[QUOTE=RobbL;34495773]What do you mean? I've just been talking about transgenders who have [I]not[/I] gone through sex reassignment surgery. If someone's gender is female but their sex is male, obviously to anyone else they look like a man[/QUOTE]
Well yes, but this is the part where you seem to be misinformed.
See the surgery is actually the VERY LAST in a long series of steps undertaken to "femalise" the body of a transwoman. Before that there is Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) which will normally cause the body to change quite a bit, including, but not limited to, developing breasts and softer skin.
Also most transgender woman grow out their hair (I did), wear makeup (I sometimes do) and wear typical female clothing (that I certainly do).
If you were to randomly meet ME in a bar tomorrow, you most certainly would see a young woman with long red (dyed) hair in a black and white dress.
You would certainly NOT know that I still have my penis... and if you do I'd have to ask where you got those x-ray glasses
[QUOTE=acds;34496067]Except I'm not calling anyone a derogatory term (no, using "he" is not a derogatory term, it can be viewed as such but so can any word). It's more like I'm calling someone homosexual and they want to be called bisexual. My intent is not to offend, [b]but I won't start changing words because people find it offensive, again there will always be someone that finds something offensive, it never ends.[/b]
Also if someone does say "I'm transsexual, could you please use "She"?" then yeah I'll probably do that. Tell me "NAZI SCUM OF THE EARTH" then yeah no, I'm not going to change a thing.[/QUOTE]
Except in this case, nobody will be offended if you call her, her. There is nothing to lose by doing so.
People finding things you say offensive is the best reason to examine what you're saying and perhaps change it, not a reason to solidify your beliefs in what you say as though the offense of others is to be worn as a badge of honour
[QUOTE=acds;34496067]Except I'm not calling anyone a derogatory term (no, using "he" is not a derogatory term, it can be viewed as such but so can any word).[/QUOTE]
Stop trying to dance around this. The only reason you would call someone a man when you know perfectly well that she identifies herself as a woman is spite.
Hell you even admitted it here.
[quote]Also if someone does say "I'm transsexual, could you please use "She"?" then yeah I'll probably do that. Tell me "NAZI SCUM OF THE EARTH" then yeah no, I'm not going to change a thing.[/quote]
[QUOTE=RobbL;34494951]Uh yeah, I think I came across a bit dickish yesterday arguing here. I was in a bad mood and on top of that typing on my phone is quite frustrating haha.
Let me just make it clear, I'm completely fine with transgenders, transexuals, homosexuals, ect. but when someone brought up that calling transgenders by their sex instead of their gender is deeply offensive, I couldn't understand why it would be.
Say I was out and a met a transgender who has a male body but psychologically they see themselves as female (which isn't obvious to anyone else, you probably wouldn't find that out until they actually tell you), and after talking to them a bit they overhear me saying to a friend "[I]He's[/I] a nice guy" Now from yesterday I'm given the impression that they would be offended by this and think of me as a bigot. That's what I don't understand, and everyone was implying that I'm a bad person for that and giving me a barrage of boxes and disagrees, when i'm probably more open-minded with this stuff than the average guy. Isn't it just personal choice whether you decide to call them by their sex or gender unless they personally ask you to do otherwise, seeing as there's no politically correct standard regarding this? (and we all know how overkill the whole PC thing is) Technically transgenders are both male and female, just in different ways.
I mean, not everyone is an expert in this area. I didn't even know the difference between gender and sex or the details of what gender dysphoria actually is until I read this thread. When I said about being 'self important' what I meant was a lot of people in this thread were giving me the impression that transgenders expect everyone to completely understand them and know everything about their condition and get mad if they don't. I know you want people to respect and accept you, but just respect and accept that the majority of people are misinformed about your condition. Hope this has cleared it up.[/QUOTE]
I think the reason my, and maybe other's arguments keep getting knocked down thoughtlessly in a barrage of dumbs, disagrees, and butthurt is that no one's realised that the whole time I've used the word 'transgender' I mean those transgenders who have [I]not[/I] gone through sex reassignment surgery and therapy, not those who have (Tbh though I thought I made it pretty obvious)
Ignorance on your part, not mine.
[QUOTE=Contag;34493409]That sounds like it's more a matter of how people are socialized. E.g. men play more sports and correspondingly have a larger parietal cortex because of that 'training'.
Were the tests conducted on babies?[/QUOTE]
Late to the party, but it has been, yes.
[url]http://autismresearchcentre.com/docs/papers/2012_Lombardo_FTSexuallyDimorphicGrayMatter.pdf[/url]
[url]http://neuro.cjb.net/content/27/6/1255.short[/url]
That said, [URL="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165380600001048"]there are a crazy number of other differences[/URL], and don't forget neural development is a slow process, so there are more things than those that show up immediately. I know you got a soc boner but this isn't the time for that.
[QUOTE=RobbL;34496219]I think the reason my, and maybe other's arguments keep getting knocked down thoughtlessly in a barrage of dumbs, disagrees, and butthurt is that no one's realised that the whole time I've used the word 'transgender' I mean those transgenders who have [I]not[/I] gone through sex reassignment surgery, not those who have. Ignorance on your part, not mine.[/QUOTE]
And as has been stated, the actual surgery matters a lot less then you seem to think it does.
Swebonny - see the mod forums
[QUOTE=Starpluck;34496293]Swebonny - see the mod forums[/QUOTE]
If any policies are changed during the discussion I trust you'll be making a post somewhere in regards to it
[QUOTE=nekosune;34496256]And as has been stated, the actual surgery matters a lot less then you seem to think it does.[/QUOTE]
*and therapy
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;34496224]Late to the party, but it has been, yes.
[url]http://autismresearchcentre.com/docs/papers/2012_Lombardo_FTSexuallyDimorphicGrayMatter.pdf[/url]
[url]http://neuro.cjb.net/content/27/6/1255.short[/url]
That said, [URL="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165380600001048"]there are a crazy number of other differences[/URL], and don't forget neural development is a slow process, so there are more things than those that show up immediately. I know you got a soc boner but this isn't the time for that.[/QUOTE]
And the thread will keep going on about social standards and acceptability of "choosing" ones gender while it's not matching his actual biological state, while completely ignoring the fact that this can be a biological issue far more than psychological, and that SHOULD be called a girl, when taken as person.
hurrrr penis => male durrr
Ok... here is a picture of a transgender woman who has NOT yet undergone surgery. [Edit: or hormone therapy]
[IMG]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10082925/transgender/Transgender.jpg[/IMG]
Does she really look like a MAN to you? Someone you would call "he" and "nice guy" when you randomly met her?
[QUOTE=RobbL;34496365]*and therapy[/QUOTE]
Your earlier posts did not say that until you edited it in, and you would be hard pressed to find a transgender person who is not either in therapy towards, or undergoing hormone replacement, Basically the ones who would be asking you to refer to her as she, and getting upset if you still stick to he, or hears you using he towards her behind her back, is 99% of the time going to be on Hormone replacement therapy.
[editline]01/02/2012 18:45[/editline]
And as Atlessa points out, even beforehand the difference can be hard to tell either way. You seem to be thinking of the classic stereotype Man in bad womens clothes, rather then the fact most transgender people would be doing best to look as good as can.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;34496293]Swebonny - see the mod forums[/QUOTE]
Ugh, that's kinda horrible.
Edit:
Just be careful and try to not misclick any buttons. It may have disastrous effects.
Seriously, it's like the majority entering this thread have contracted chronic butthurt disease or are suffering from PMS.
You're pedantically nit-picking and bending the truth of the most trivial things trying to interpret them as offensive, insulting, and bigoted in an attempt to take the moral highground over people who you disagree with . You do realise how pathetic that sounds? How do you make it through a single day being that sensitive? Their are bigger issues in the world than people who look like men but see themselves as women being called 'he's', but i'm given the impression the transgender ass-licker brigade seems to think otherwise.
Just because you're offended doesn't mean everything you say is right.
RANT OVER :suicide:
I just don't get it
This is the forum where people rate news stories of murder and rape 'funny'
"i'm not wrong you guys are just too sensitive and butthurt"
try saying that to someone's face when criticizing them for being transgender and then decide we're all suffering from the incredibly stupid thing you made up called chronic butthurt disease.
if speaking out against idiocy and malice is being butthurt then i'd rather be butthurt and suffer from fucking PMS than be complacent to such idiocy and malice.
and the only reason people find news stories of murder and rape funny is because there's no emotional connection between simple news-print words on a screen and a persons mind. that makes people uncomfortable and nervous which leads them to laugh.
it's perfectly possible for them to have PMS while laughing.
[IMG]http://taimapedia.org/images/3/3e/1299056029340.jpg[/IMG]
At the top is a [I]he[/I]. At the bottom is a [I]she[/I].
Why do you have to make everything so fucking complicated?
[QUOTE=Swebonny;34496787]Ugh, that's kinda horrible.
Edit:
Just be careful and try to not misclick any buttons. It may have disastrous effects.[/QUOTE]
Will do, and thanks. It was a bit intimidating
[IMG]http://www.memedepot.com/uploads/1000/1148_1253230725640.jpg[/IMG]
At no point have I suggested that I dislike transgenders, again you're nit picking and bending the truth. I'm completely fine with them.
In fact I would go as far as saying i'm probably more open minded about this stuff than the average guy, but I just don't get this whole calling them 'he' or 'she' business
[QUOTE=RobbL;34496800]Seriously, it's like the majority entering this thread have contracted chronic butthurt disease or are suffering from PMS.
You're pedantically nit-picking and bending the truth of the most trivial things trying to interpret them as offensive, insulting, and bigoted in an attempt to take the moral highground over people who you disagree with . You do realise how pathetic that sounds? How do you make it through a single day being that sensitive? Their are bigger issues in the world than people who look like men but see themselves as women being called 'he's', but i'm given the impression the transgender ass-licker brigade seems to think otherwise.
Just because you're offended doesn't mean everything you say is right.
[/QUOTE]
Here is why I feel offended: you say I look like a man, and so do ALL transgender women as long as they didn't have GRS [Edit: or therapy] and that is WRONG.
MANY (granted: not all) transwomen look as good as cis women, and YOU will never be able to tell the difference unless you somehow manage to get a good look at their genitalia.
GRS does not "magically" change ALL of your appearance in a couple hours. That is a process that takes YEARS, and includes hair(do), clothes, makeup, stance, walk, voice, hormones... the list goes on.
Fact: some transgeder women NEVER HAVE their GRS (this can have various reasons) and STILL look like the next woman.
The (very small) percentage of transgender you keep talking about, that do STILL look like men, will most certainly NOT be mad at you for 'accidentally' calling them "he" or "nice guy" because they KNOW you don't know better. Most likely, if they trust you enough, they will correct you, tell you of their issues and that they would prefer to be called "sabine" and "she" by you. And you can bet that she's WORKING on changing her look to reflect her gender, but that takes time... years, sometimes a decade or more (rare, but it happens)...
[QUOTE=RobbL;34496997]I just don't get this whole calling them 'he' or 'she' business[/QUOTE]
there's no business. simply ask someone what they would like to be called and call them that.
to impart anything beyond that is simply being a dick for the sake of being a dick.
[IMG]http://taimapedia.org/images/3/3e/1299056029340.jpg[/IMG]
The photos at the top. If I saw that person I would refer to that person as a he. Now according to to every counter argument i've had in this thread, that is offensive and bigoted, and that person should be referred to as a she. Since when do you call someone who looks like a bloke a 'she'?
Am I in some weird parallel universe or something?
[QUOTE=RobbL;34497194][IMG]http://taimapedia.org/images/3/3e/1299056029340.jpg[/IMG]
The photos at the top. If I saw that person I would refer to that person as a he. Now according to to every counter argument i've had in this thread, that is offensive and bigoted, and that person should be referred to as a she. Since when do you call someone who looks like a bloke a 'she'?
Am I in some weird parallel universe or something?[/QUOTE]
You would if they asked you to, pure and simple, anything else is saying that you know what they are better then they do.
[QUOTE=RobbL;34497194]
The photos at the top. If I saw that person I would refer to that person as a he.[/QUOTE]
The point is that I, and I assume mostly everyone else in this thread, was talking about a person in the "month 1-3" stage or later. Because that is how a transgender looks VERY SOON after their coming out.
And NOONE would be seriously butthurt for you considering them male before their CO
*note: all this time I am assuming transwomen, of course all gender pronouns would be the opposite fro trnasmen xD
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