[QUOTE=Atlessa;34497277]The point is that I, and I assume mostly everyone else in this thread, was talking about a person in the "month 1-3" stage or later. Because that is how a transgender looks VERY SOON after their coming out.
And NOONE would be seriously butthurt for you considering them male before their CO
*note: all this time I am assuming transwomen, of course all gender pronouns would be the opposite fro trnasmen xD[/QUOTE]
Throughout this whole thread though, I've just been talking about the person in the pre-hormones stage. I even explicitly stated that in an earlier post, only to get rated dumbs for some reason.
I'm sorry i'm no expert on transgenderism, and neither are the majority of people. But that doesn't makes us bigots. There are always going to be people who don't understand something whatever it is, just accept that. The people who've been disagreeing with me have given me the impression that the transgender community just expect too much.
[editline]1st February 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=nekosune;34497211]You would if they asked you to, pure and simple, anything else is saying that you know what they are better then they do.[/QUOTE]
And I even said that if a transgender asked me to call them by their preferred pronoun, I'd have no problem with that
[QUOTE=RobbL;34497194][IMG]http://taimapedia.org/images/3/3e/1299056029340.jpg[/IMG]
The photos at the top. If I saw that person I would refer to that person as a he. Now according to to every counter argument i've had in this thread, that is offensive and bigoted, and that person should be referred to as a she. Since when do you call someone who looks like a bloke a 'she'?
Am I in some weird parallel universe or something?[/QUOTE]
This isn't about calling someone who looks like a man a man.
Nobody is going to chastise you for calling someone who looks like a man a man if you have no prior knowledge of them being transgendered.
It's when you start calling someone a man when you know they identify themselves as a women that you become an asshole.
That's what this whole argument with acds has been about.
[QUOTE=RobbL;34497883]Throughout this whole thread though, I've just been talking about the person in the pre-hormones stage. I even explicitly stated that in an earlier post, only to get rated dumbs for some reason.
I'm sorry i'm no expert on transgenderism, and neither are the majority of people. But that doesn't makes us bigots. There are always going to be people who don't understand something whatever it is, just accept that. The people who've been disagreeing with me have given me the impression that the transgender community just expect too much.
[editline]1st February 2012[/editline]
And I even said that if a transgender asked me to call them by their preferred pronoun, I'd have no problem with that[/QUOTE]
The problem is you have very much been given the impresion, you think there is a certain point by which before that people are 'allowed' to call people the wrong pronoun, weather [B]they know[/B] or not, pre hormones, yes, people will probably say he until told.
The part that brings up bad feelings is there is people, as demonstrated on this thread, who will continue to use he pretty much no matter what stage, which was what impression was being given here.
Basically There are people who will use prefered pronoun when told, OR when see they are transitioning.
There are sadly people who will refuse to, either in the persons prescence or only out of thier prescence thats what find offensive.
[QUOTE=ChilColdCoolaid;34498039]This isn't about calling someone who looks like a man a man.
Nobody is going to chastise you for calling someone who looks like a man a man if you have no prior knowledge of them being transgendered.
It's when you start calling someone a man when you know they identify themselves as a women that you become an asshole.
That's what this whole argument with acds has been about.[/QUOTE]
I sort of mindfucked myself regarding that haha. Sorry
[QUOTE=RobbL;34497883]Throughout this whole thread though, I've just been talking about the person in the pre-hormones stage. I even explicitly stated that in an earlier post, only to get rated dumbs for some reason.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, there seems to be another slight misunderstanding here.
As I stated above most of us were thinking about a person looking like in the 1-3 months stage in the picture you posted.
BUT, please acknowledge this, in that stage, and (for most transgender) for quite a few months before actually taking hormones, the actual physical appearance doesn't change that much.
In other words: a transwoman may look like this, even without ever taking hormones at all, and I am pretty sure that if you randomly met her, you would assume her being female without question.
That's why I referenced the coming out in my previous post, because that is usually the time when a transgender person begins (or is already in the process of) changing their appearance, and that is also when you SHOULD (and in most cases, you probably would without second-guessing) refer to them as "she"
[QUOTE=nekosune;34498162]The problem is you have very much been given the impresion, you think there is a certain point by which before that people are 'allowed' to call people the wrong pronoun, weather they know or not, pre hormones, yes, people will probably say he until told.
The part that brings up bad feelings is there is people, as demonstrated on this thread, who will continue to use he pretty much no matter what stage, which was what impression was being given here.
Basically There are people who will use prefered pronoun when told, OR when see they are transitioning.
There are sadly people who will refuse to, either in the persons prescence or only out of thier prescence thats what find offensive.[/QUOTE]
The thing is I thought the whole discussion here was about the pre-hormone stage seeing as that's what the girl in the article is at
[QUOTE=Atlessa;34496393]Ok... here is a picture of a transgender woman who has NOT yet undergone surgery. [Edit: or hormone therapy]
[IMG]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10082925/transgender/Transgender.jpg[/IMG]
[b]Does she really look like a MAN to you?[/b] Someone you would call "he" and "nice guy" when you randomly met her?[/QUOTE]
Yes, he does.
You can shape your hair differently, go through hormonal therapies, remove your genitals, but that does not change the fact that you're a male. You were born a male, your genes say you are a male, you are physically structured as a male, therefore, you are a male.
[QUOTE=RobbL;34498211]The thing is I thought the whole discussion here was about the pre-hormone stage seeing as that's what the girl in the article is at[/QUOTE]
Well, most of the discussion WAS about pre-hormone stage, but please believe me when I tell you that even at that stage, a person can absolutely look the opposite gender, if they so desire.
[QUOTE=RobbL;34498211]The thing is I thought the whole discussion here was about the pre-hormone stage seeing as that's what the girl in the article is at[/QUOTE]
Pre hormone they can look very female, enough to look like she unless told.
So the pre or post dosnt matter
What you are referring to is if they look male or female, pure and simply.
And it is known the girl wishes to be her, so thats what should be reffered to as, we dont know how she looks, she may look male or be lucky enough to look female allready. But people here know she wishes to be female form the article, so the pronounds her and she are the appropriate ones.
What seems to be happening here is pre hormones transgender Women is in a bar, looking female.
Someone tells another they are transgender, and then the other person goes up to them saying "Hello Dude".
[QUOTE=nekosune;34498288]Pre hormone they can look very female, enough to look like she unless told.
So the pre or post dosnt matter
What you are referring to is if they look male or female, pure and simply.
And it is known the girl wishes to be her, so thats what should be reffered to as, we dont know how she looks, she may look male or be lucky enough to look female allready. But people here know she wishes to be female form the article, so the pronounds her and she are the appropriate ones.
What seems to be happening here is pre hormones transgender Women is in a bar, looking female.
Someone tells another they are transgender, and then the other person goes up to them saying "Hello Dude".[/QUOTE]
The problem is if they're just a feminine looking bloke and you call them a woman or vice-versa. That's what's going to cause the most offence haha
[QUOTE=RobbL;34498361]The problem is if they're just a feminine looking bloke and you call them a woman or vice-versa. That's what's going to cause the most offence haha[/QUOTE]
I stated where someone tells another they are transgender, basically, if you don't know and call them the wrong thing, innocent mistake, if you KNOW and call them the wrong thing, that's the offensive part.
[QUOTE=HighdefGE;34498247]Yes, he does.
You can shape your hair differently, go through hormonal therapies, remove your gentiles, but that does not change the fact that you're a male. You were born a male, your genes say you are a male, you are physically structured as a male, therefore, you are a male.[/QUOTE]
And yet again someone fails to understand the different between gender and sex.
[QUOTE=HighdefGE;34498247]
You can shape your hair differently, go through hormonal therapies, remove your gentiles, but that does not change the fact that you're a male. [/QUOTE]
You can dress gay, act gay, have sex with men, but that does not change the fact that you're hetero.
Make sense?
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;34498528]And yet again someone fails to understand the different between gender and sex.[/QUOTE]
To be honest, I think even if he did understand the difference, he would still stand by his statement...
Before I finish with this thread (It's getting pretty boring now haha) I just want to give one more opinion on this-
Female-
[QUOTE]of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes:[/QUOTE]
Has a male to female transgender ever had any of these qualities? No.
Male-
[QUOTE]of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring[/QUOTE]
Has a female to male transgender ever had any of these qualities? No.
The thing is, [I]biologically[/I] a transgender will always be their birth sex, and you can't argue with straight-forward science.
However, [I]culturally[/I] a transgender is whatever gender they identify themselves as, and that's where people have been getting mixed up I think.
[QUOTE=RobbL;34498211]The thing is I thought the whole discussion here was about the pre-hormone stage seeing as that's what the girl in the article is at[/QUOTE]
Seeing as she's 11, she's also pre-pubertal.
So the secondary sex characteristics that you're using to base your assumptions of gender on are completely non-existent.
[QUOTE=RobbL;34498783]Before I finish with this thread (It's getting pretty boring now haha) I just want to give one more opinion on this-
Female-
Has a male to female transgender ever had any of these qualities? No.
Male-
Has a female to male transgender ever had any of these qualities? No.
The thing is, [I]biologically[/I] a transgender will always be their birth sex, and you can't argue with straight-forward science.
However, [I]culturally[/I] a transgender is whatever sex/gender they identify themselves as, and that's where people have been getting mixed up I think.[/QUOTE]
So infertile people are neither male nor female?
[QUOTE=RobbL;34498783]Before I finish with this thread (It's getting pretty boring now haha) I just want to give one more opinion on this-
Female-
Has a male to female transgender ever had any of these qualities? No.
Male-
Has a female to male transgender ever had any of these qualities? No.
The thing is, [I]biologically[/I] a transgender will always be their birth sex, and you can't argue with straight-forward science.
However, [I]culturally[/I] a transgender is whatever sex/gender they identify themselves as, and that's where people have been getting mixed up I think.[/QUOTE]
A friend of mine (not transgender) was born without ovaries...
Some women just can't bear children, some men don't produce sperm.
The keyword in those definitions is "denoting the sex"...
[QUOTE=Atlessa;34498932]A friend of mine (not transgender) was born without ovaries...
Some women just can't bear children, some men don't produce sperm.
The keyword in those definitions is "denoting the sex"...[/QUOTE]
As long as you still have the sexual organs, that still counts imo. Another thing that denotes being a female in mammals is having mammary glands, and i'm sure your friend has tits haha
[QUOTE=RobbL;34498783]Before I finish with this thread (It's getting pretty boring now haha) I just want to give one more opinion on this-
Female-
Has a male to female transgender ever had any of these qualities? No.
Male-
Has a female to male transgender ever had any of these qualities? No.
The thing is, [I]biologically[/I] a transgender will always be their birth sex, and you can't argue with straight-forward science.
However, [I]culturally[/I] a transgender is whatever sex/gender they identify themselves as, and that's where people have been getting mixed up I think.[/QUOTE]
Wow. Really?
Going by that logic would a woman who becomes barren suddenly no longer be a woman?
And Neko seriously what is your problem? Why rate my last post dumb? It's the truth... imo you're fighting for a lost cause
[QUOTE=Herb;34498901]
So infertile people are neither male nor female?[/QUOTE]
Nope, we're gods.
[QUOTE=RobbL;34499002]and i'm sure your friend has tits haha[/QUOTE]
Well guess what, she has.
BUT since she was born without ovaries, she needs to take artificial (female) hormones, because her body doesn't produce them.
Also the condition she has (forgot what it's called) sometimes means the girl is born without a proper vagina as well, so she needs surgery te be able to have "normal intercourse"
It's not that much different from what I (or any transwoman) need to go through if you think about it.
[QUOTE=ChilColdCoolaid;34499004]Wow. Really?
Going by that logic would a woman who becomes barren suddenly no longer be a woman?[/QUOTE]
No, i said 'has a male to female [I]ever had[/I] any of these qualities?' implying that they at least would've had to have them or had the potential to develop those qualities at some point in their life...
[QUOTE=RobbL;34497194][IMG]http://taimapedia.org/images/3/3e/1299056029340.jpg[/IMG]
The photos at the top. If I saw that person I would refer to that person as a he. Now according to to every counter argument i've had in this thread, that is offensive and bigoted, and that person should be referred to as a she. Since when do you call someone who looks like a bloke a 'she'?
Am I in some weird parallel universe or something?[/QUOTE]
You refer to them as "she" when they asked you to after saying "he" the first time
[editline]1st February 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=HighdefGE;34498247]Yes, he does.
You can shape your hair differently, go through hormonal therapies, remove your gentiles, but that does not change the fact that you're a male. You were born a male, your genes say you are a male, you are physically structured as a male, therefore, you are a male.[/QUOTE]
why do you leave the brain out of that, since the brain is the only thing that actually makes us people as opposed to animated meat
[QUOTE=RobbL;34499077]No, i said 'has a male to female [I]ever had[/I] any of these qualities?' implying that they at least would've had to have them at some point in their life...[/QUOTE]
The point is you are saying that someone who is transgendered will ALWAYS be their birth sex, which implies that you are saying that they will always be that sex regardless of surgery.
And then you contradict yourself by saying that the ability to reproduce determines your sex but then say that it only matters if you had the ability at some point.
Either biological sex is rigid or it isn't. It can't be both.
Which one is it?
[QUOTE=RobbL;34498783]Before I finish with this thread (It's getting pretty boring now haha) I just want to give one more opinion on this-
Female-
Has a male to female transgender ever had any of these qualities? No.
Male-
Has a female to male transgender ever had any of these qualities? No.
The thing is, [I]biologically[/I] a transgender will always be their birth sex, and you can't argue with straight-forward science.
However, [I]culturally[/I] a transgender is whatever sex/gender they identify themselves as, and that's where people have been getting mixed up I think.[/QUOTE]
There is a clear difference between sex and gender, and even your definitions recognize this, saying 'of or denoting the [B]sex[/B]' and not 'of or denoting the [B]gender[/B]'
There is no such thing as 'cultural sex', and the fact that you would use the terms sex and gender almost interchangeably displays how you fail to grasp this.
[QUOTE=HighdefGE;34498247]remove your gentiles,[/QUOTE]
Isn't that what the people of Salt Lake City, Utah do on a regular basis?
gender is a title
who gives a fuck
[QUOTE=Zeke129;34499092]You refer to them as "she" when they asked you to after saying "he" the first time[/QUOTE]
But what if you're just generally talking about a transgender at that stage without ever having actually talked to or even met them? What gender do you call them then?
[QUOTE=Protection;34499165]gender is a title
who gives a fuck[/QUOTE]
Spoken like someone who has the privilege to not have to worry about such things.
[QUOTE=RobbL;34499179]But what if you're just generally talking about a transgender at that stage without ever having actually talked to or even met them? What gender do you call them then?[/QUOTE]
If you know they are transgender, like in this case, you call them the appropriate gender, like for this little girl, she. basically, once you know the gender they wish to be,thats the one you call them.
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