• Two US TV journalists shot dead on air
    1,049 replies, posted
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48544858]Murder still happens, people kill people regardless of the weapon used.[/QUOTE] It's significantly easier to murder people with guns. The murder rate in the US is one of the highest in the developed world, and I don't think it's a coincidence that it's the one with the craziest gun culture.
[QUOTE=MisterMooth;48544914]It's significantly easier to murder people with guns. The murder rate in the US is one of the highest in the developed world, and I don't think it's a coincidence that it's the one with the craziest gun culture.[/QUOTE] [img]https://gaslamppost.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/laziest-shotgun-in-the-world.jpg?w=594[/img] Fix the issue with the person behind the trigger. Guns are not the fucking problem.
[QUOTE=MisterMooth;48544914]It's significantly easier to murder people with guns. The murder rate in the US is one of the highest in the developed world, and I don't think it's a coincidence that it's the one with the craziest gun culture.[/QUOTE] The murder rate is still higher than average in parts of the US where guns are illegal. The murders are just committed with weapons other than firearms. Not that you or anyone else arguing this point in the thread cares about the facts.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;48544922]The murder rate is still higher than average in parts of the US where guns are illegal. The murders are just committed with weapons other than firearms. Not that you or anyone else arguing this point in the thread cares about the facts.[/QUOTE] They don't care because they aren't from the US so they're just saying "derp just make guns harder to get guys, make it 'more illegal' to obtain guns illegaly"
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48544824]This is a stupid argument. We still live in a violent culture. There are ~300 million weapons in circulation. You can't ban them. Mental health is one of the main causes of violent crime. As is gang activities, drugs and other illegal activities. They would use other means to kill if they didn't have guns.[/QUOTE] I'd rather be confronted by a man with a knife than a man with a gun any day of the week. I can outrun a man with a knife, perhaps even disarm him; I can't outrun bullets, though.
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48544858]Murder still happens, people kill people regardless of the weapon used.[/QUOTE] This is such a futile argument. And there is no need at all to start pointing fingers until there's an official culprit.
[QUOTE=sltungle;48544936]I'd rather be confronted by a man with a knife than a man with a gun any day of the week. I can outrun a man with a knife, perhaps even disarm him; I can't outrun bullets, though.[/QUOTE] Whelp. In places where CCW is allowed, you're equally matched with the criminal with a gun. And crime stats are lower.
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48544526]It does. End the gun debate, this isn't the right place for it.[/QUOTE] give your input on the debate and say we shouldn't have that debate right afterwards. classy way of trying to get the last say
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48544919][img]https://gaslamppost.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/laziest-shotgun-in-the-world.jpg?w=594[/img] Fix the issue with the person behind the trigger. Guns are not the fucking problem.[/QUOTE] Question: can you take the murder out of people?
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48544927]They don't care because they aren't from the US so they're just saying "derp just make guns harder to get guys, make it 'more illegal' to obtain guns illegaly"[/QUOTE] I am from the US, and let me tell you it's fantastic that I now live in a country that isn't full of gun wankery and where gun crime is almost non-existent by comparison.
[QUOTE=TheTalon;48544732]It's a bit dated, but it still shows the scale pretty well[/QUOTE] The problem is it doesn't correct for population (and gun violence isn't graphed either, but that's not quite as relevant here). It's completely useless for the discussion at hand (or any discussion that reaches further than that graph's title, for that matter).
[QUOTE=sltungle;48544936]I'd rather be confronted by a man with a knife than a man with a gun any day of the week. I can outrun a man with a knife, perhaps even disarm him; I can't outrun bullets, though.[/QUOTE] No you can not. Something I learned during police training is that someone armed with a knife can be dangerous up to 31 feet. Knives can be thrown, people are fast, etc. Never underestimate someone with a knife.
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48544919][img]https://gaslamppost.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/laziest-shotgun-in-the-world.jpg?w=594[/img] Fix the issue with the person behind the trigger. Guns are not the fucking problem.[/QUOTE] No one here is saying guns sprout legs and go off shooting people, don't act dense. Guns make it easier to kill people. That onion article "Nothing could prevent this, says only country where this regularly happens" comes to mind Like, i don't see why the method someone presented a bit earlier is so appaling. Make it closer to a drivers license. Show that you can use it safe and register your info + info on the gun
[QUOTE=sltungle;48544936]I'd rather be confronted by a man with a knife than a man with a gun any day of the week. I can outrun a man with a knife, perhaps even disarm him; I can't outrun bullets, though.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Grenadiac;48544922]The murder rate is still higher than average in parts of the US where guns are illegal. The murders are just committed with weapons other than firearms. Not that you or anyone else arguing this point in the thread cares about the facts.[/QUOTE] The problem is not that you can own firearms. It's that people who want to kill other people are remarkably common in this country. Rather than face the real issue or talk about real solutions you people want to criminalize law abiding citizens because you've been brought up to believe that guns are synthetic creatures with a lust for blood.
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48544824]This is a stupid argument. We still live in a violent culture. There are ~300 million weapons in circulation. You can't ban them. Mental health is one of the main causes of violent crime. As is gang activities, drugs and other illegal activities. They would use other means to kill if they didn't have guns.[/QUOTE] I'm not advocating that we ban them all, I just think certain things like the ease of acquisition, to the point that any billy bob joe who can waltz into a gun show, shouldn't be able to immediately buy and use any gun he would like right then and there to go kill or hurt people with. You have a defeatist attitude when you say things like gang, drug, and illegal activities will never be stopped, even with the introduction of stricter gun laws. Surely having gangs running around with knives, would be easier for the police to control than fully armed to the teeth gun weilding gang members. You are embracing and attempting to vindicate our violent culture when you refuse to even begin to address the idea of adjusting our gun laws. I'm sorry but your point of view isn't a solution, it's just a reactionary position that holds the status quo. Rome wasn't built in a day, our violent culture won't be solved in a day either, in my ideal world we would be able to have guns and not a ridiculous violent crime culture as well. But currently we need to stop the bad apples first. That isn't going to be solved by always maintaining that our populace always be voraciously armed.
[QUOTE=MisterMooth;48544950]I am from the US, and let me tell you it's fantastic that I now live in a country that isn't full of gun wankery and where gun crime is almost non-existent by comparison.[/QUOTE] Good for you. I like shooting as a sport, I'm glad to live somewhere where that's allowed to happen. And I have a leg up on armed crazies.
[QUOTE=Pilot1215;48544953]No you can not. Something I learned during police training is that someone armed with a knife can be dangerous up to 31 feet. Knives can be thrown, people are fast, etc. Never underestimate someone with a knife.[/QUOTE] I don't give a shit how dangerous someone with a knife is; someone with a gun is MORE dangerous. If they choose to throw the damn knife and miss they're fucked. A person gets to throw more than one bullet your way unless they're using a fucking musket.
[QUOTE=Itsjustguy;48544893]Wow, a fancy graph suddenly proves a point. Get out of here.[/QUOTE] No. How about roughly 200 years worth of legal settings providing the basis of many current notions of the 2nd Amendment, from the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_Act_of_1903]Militia Act of 1903[/url] and the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Service_Act_of_1917]Selective Service Act[/url] which define the 2nd Amendments preamble of having a well armed militia as being a mention of every able bodied man from 17 to 45 being apart of the state militia, and having the ability to be called upon during time of crisis. Oh! How about the findings of [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Miller]United States v. Miller 1937[/url], which found that the 2nd Amendment is about giving citizens the right to own weapons used by the standing army, and that at the time short barreled shotguns were not used en'masse and therefore were deemed non-needed under the 2nd Amendment. Just to get this boat riding a little more, we could continue to discuss the several hearings, court battles, and discussions regarding this issue, and it'll always come back to that little infograph. Please, do not act cocky about my countries laws regarding firearm laws. I have studied them for quiet sometime as an informed voter who tries to contact his representatives when ever needs be, and after spending many hours in libraries and on my computer, I think I have an alright knowledge of my countries firearm laws.
I know the USA will never ban guns but they should at least do something about handguns. Make them harder to obtain or something.
[QUOTE=WarriorWounds;48544958]I'm not advocating that we ban them all, I just think certain things like the ease of acquisition, to the point that any billy bob joe who can waltz into a gun show, shouldn't be able to immediately buy and use any gun he would like right then and there to go kill or hurt people with.[/QUOTE] That isn't possible. I go to gun shows all the time. You still have to do the FFL paperwork as you would at a normal store.
[QUOTE=WarriorWounds;48544958]I'm not advocating that we ban them all, I just think certain things like the ease of acquisition, to the point that any billy bob joe who can waltz into a gun show, shouldn't be able to immediately buy and use any gun he would like right then and there to go kill or hurt people with. You have a defeatist attitude when you say things like gang, drug, and illegal activities will never be stopped, even with the introduction of stricter gun laws. Surely having gangs running around with knives, would be easier for the police to control that fully armed to the teeth gun weilding gang members. You are embracing and attempting to vindicate our violent culture when you refuse to even begin to address the idea of adjusting our gun laws. I'm sorry but your point of view isn't a solution, it's just a reactionary position that holds the status quo. Rome wasn't built in a day, our violent culture won't be solved in a day either, in my ideal world we would be able to have guns and not a ridiculous violent crime culture as well. But currently we need to stop the bad apples first. That isn't going to be solved by always maintaining that our populace always be voraciously armed.[/QUOTE] How do you solve the bad apples without criminalizing and abusing law abiding gun owners (which constitutes the vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of gun owners)? I own 12 - in all solution put forward so far I'm out a collection worth about $10,000 with further historic and sentimental value as many of them are approaching 100 years of age. [QUOTE=agentfazexx;48544969]That isn't possible. I go to gun shows all the time. You still have to do the FFL paperwork as you would at a normal store.[/QUOTE] This may be a per-state thing. My first gun was bought at a gun show and there was no paperwork. Also keep in mind that some FFLs go to gun shows and deal.
Now, its obvious that it is impossible to ban guns at all in the US (how are you gonna pry guns out of few hundred million Americans?) But you guys have to stop saying how guns actually stop/lower crime rate, when you arm citizens with guns. Guns started out as a form of protection against the government rather than for self protection, which seems to be the case now. If you're going to compare countries, do it with mine, aside from gun crime rates (which is almost non existent) we have one of the lowest crime rate in the world, and we are extremely strict with guns.
People act like America is some warzone where people get murdered everywhere you look. In my hometown, we've had one murder in the last 12 years, and it was committed with a hammer. I happily own 3 guns, my grandfather owns more guns than I can count, neither of us have murdered or robbed anybody.
[QUOTE=BreenIsALie;48544955]No one here is saying guns sprout legs and go off shooting people, don't act dense. Guns make it easier to kill people. That onion article "Nothing could prevent this, says only country where this regularly happens" comes to mind Like, i don't see why the method someone presented a bit earlier is so appaling. Make it closer to a drivers license. Show that you can use it safe and register your info + info on the gun[/QUOTE] You technically have to own a permit or license in order to carry one with you. You can't easily buy a gun from a grocery store like most people are implying.
[QUOTE=Ignhelper;48544977]Now, its obvious that it is impossible to ban guns at all in the US (how are you gonna pry guns out of few hundred million Americans?) But you guys have to stop saying how guns actually stop/lower crime rate, when you arm citizens with guns. Guns started out as a form of protection against the government rather than for self protection, which seems to be the case now. If you're going to compare countries, do it with mine, aside from gun crime rates (which is almost non existent) we have one of the lowest crime rate in the world, and we are extremely strict with guns.[/QUOTE] You also have lower temperatures on average. Can we assume therefore that higher temperatures in the US are responsible for the crime rate? You're drawing false correlations. [QUOTE=cardfan212;48544989]People act like America is some warzone where people get murdered everywhere you look. In my hometown, we've had one murder in the last 12 years, and it was committed with a hammer. I happily own 3 guns, my grandfather owns more guns than I can count, neither of us have murdered or robbed anybody.[/QUOTE] How can you be sure you haven't murdered or robbed anybody? You may have entered a blood rage on contact with an evil firearm and simply forgotten.
[QUOTE=Complifused;48544966]I know the USA will never ban guns but they should at least do something about handguns. Make them harder to obtain or something.[/QUOTE] This. This is something which is what almost is universally agreed will put a fairly decent dent in crime. I personally believe a system should be set in place so that the cheaper the firearm, the longer the wait time. Up to about five days waiting period. That way any form of background that needs to be established can be done, and no problems arise from it.
[QUOTE=sltungle;48544962]I don't give a shit how dangerous someone with a knife is; someone with a gun is MORE dangerous. If they choose to throw the damn knife and miss they're fucked. A person gets to throw more than one bullet your way unless they're using a fucking musket.[/QUOTE] I just proved you wrong so you say you don't give a shit. Someone with a gun is more dangerous, but so fucking what? What do we do? We already have background checks and waiting periods, and if it turns out he brought this illegally, then nothing you ever propose would've stopped this. But as I said earlier, if every would just SHUT THE FUCK UP and let every detail get out then we could debate it, but no, always gotta use a fucking tragedy. I mean fuck, without a permit to carry, he just broke the law, bug chance he didn't even get it legally. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Don't tell people to "shut the fuck up." Rude!" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]
Yes, people will still murder without guns. But that's like saying "people will still travel without cars". It's true, but guns and cars make doing said action a [I]whole[/I] lot easier. The reason gun bans don't work isn't because guns don't make it easier to kill people. They don't work because there will still be a ton of guns in the area and surrounding areas. It's a Pandora's box situation.
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48544960]Good for you. I like shooting as a sport, I'm glad to live somewhere where that's allowed to happen. And I have a leg up on armed crazies.[/QUOTE] This response is why I perceive firearms in the US as an issue. If you shoot guns as sport you should be working to make ensure there are measures taken so that people understand guns to a greater extent. Saying "And I have a leg up on armed crazies" Just undermines every argument you have.
[QUOTE=Gump;48545006]This response is why I perceive firearms in the US as an issue. If you shoot guns as sport you should be working to make ensure there are measures taken so that people understand guns to a greater extent. Saying "And I have a leg up on armed crazies" Just undermines every argument you have.[/QUOTE] Even groups like the "evil" NRA have programs for gun safety and on gun crime. Plenty opf measures for people to understand, but no one ever wants to take the time to do it.
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