• Russian Foreign Minister Calls for Second Reset
    162 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Melnek;46101321]Please stop using this absolutely piss-poor, straw-grasping excuse. The fact that you didn't take land means absolutely nothing. You still invaded sovereign nations in pursuit of your own interests even when such acts were deemed [url=http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/16/iraq.iraq]illegal by the UN[/url]. Not only that, but you have also caused more destabilization and death in a decade than Russia managed to do in all of its border wars combined since 1991. And now people like you act like the taking of Crimea (where not a single damn shot was fired) is some sort of evidence that Putin is the devil incarnate when all he did was correct a historic mistake, and with the majority of support from the Crimean population and Russia itself.[/QUOTE] It's also worth considering there were more protests in Crimea than the east. If the Russian army hadn't annexed peacefully, the Ukrainian army would have gone in and started killing people like it did in the east when they protested.
[QUOTE=laserguided;46100601]Crimea is thoroughly Russian. Stop deluding yourself.[/QUOTE] "What are these Tatars and native Ukrainians? Never exist in first place! Crimea always 100% Russians and Cossacks!"
I love the justification of people saying this land historically belongs to Russia, no it doesn't. It historically belonged to the ethnic Tatar natives who got pushed out by the Soviets. Edit: Damn nice ninja post there.
Russia did nothing wrong !!!! It's all Russian haters! Mdeceiver79 is so fucking hilariously deluded.
[QUOTE=Tasm;46103135]Russia did nothing wrong !!!! It's all Russian haters! Mdeceiver79 is so fucking hilariously deluded.[/QUOTE] Care to address where I'm wrong. East Ukraine is still part of Ukraine. They did lose Crimea and the army was killing civilians. Go on which part isn't true [editline]29th September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Vlevs;46103003]"What are these Tatars and native Ukrainians? Never exist in first place! Crimea always 100% Russians and Cossacks!"[/QUOTE] Ukrainians pretty much are the original Cossacks. They started in the area we now call Ukraine they had a shaky relationship with Russia for centuries, considered bandits or mercenaries most of the time. Cossacks are commonly associated with Russia because the tsars used them and some lived in now Russia. The original Ukrainian state was a Cossack state which Russia took over. Fast forward to the 1930s and the Cossacks were causing trouble for the Soviets, the holodomor was implemented with the intention of targeting the Cossacks, sometimes referred to as decossackisation
If Russia were a person, I would have called the cops on them a long time ago.
[QUOTE=Recco;46099235]You know there's something wrong when the first 9 posts are russophobic. Totally no shills here.[/QUOTE] You know there's something wrong when every post from you is shitty.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;46103188]Care to address where I'm wrong. East Ukraine is still part of Ukraine. They did lose Crimea and the army was killing civilians. Go on which part isn't true [editline]29th September 2014[/editline] Ukrainians pretty much are the original Cossacks. They started in the area we now call Ukraine they had a shaky relationship with Russia for centuries, considered bandits or mercenaries most of the time. Cossacks are commonly associated with Russia because the tsars used them and some lived in now Russia. The original Ukrainian state was a Cossack state which Russia took over. Fast forward to the 1930s and the Cossacks were causing trouble for the Soviets, the holodomor was implemented with the intention of targeting the Cossacks, sometimes referred to as decossackisation[/QUOTE] Uhm, they also descend from the Rusyns (Ruthenes/Ruthenians)..
[QUOTE=laserguided;46100387]Eastern Europe belongs to Russia. Deal with it, that's the way it is.[/QUOTE] I hope you aren't serious, but since you posted pics of you in Russian military surplus and holding(probably)fake pistols and saying you were in spetsnaz, I don't doubt you secretly believe they should own it. [editline]29th September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Melnek;46100577]No it isn't. And it never was.[/QUOTE] I really cant believe some people are this stupid, in a world that has literally every piece of information available to us, people still formulate retarded opinions even though we can research the shit out of things and stop being ignorant.
[QUOTE=laserguided;46101469]If a single Baltic state had as much power as the US or Russia they would be way more insane than both combined. Go through a Baltic newspaper and you'll see what I mean.[/QUOTE] I'm Estonian and I have no fucking clue what you're talking about. The prevailing trains of thought are against Russian cockwaving, not about waving our own cocks about. This is because, if you knew anything at all about our history, you'd see that we've been occupied for like 90% of our entire history. All we want is independence and stability, not to go into other countries like the Russian assholes. Try reading one yourself some day.
To be precise - Turkish Crimea was fought upon in 1783, and then was gained by Russia. Then in Soviet Union, it was just gifted to Ukraine, but in "official" way (the drunk excuse of president just signed everything he needed to). Even after that people of region felt more to Russia than to Ukraine. My granny (who lived in Simferopol) once said "I hope they allow us to join back someday". Shame she didn't lived to this day =( Also, to the all professional politicians here - I am happy, that Crimea "came back", but not so happy with the methods. And no, I don't support Putin, but impressed with his stubborness.
[QUOTE=DrAkcel;46103508]To be precise - Turkish Crimea was fought upon in 1783, and then was gained by Russia. Then in Soviet Union, it was just gifted to Ukraine, but in "official" way (the drunk excuse of president just signed everything he needed to). Even after that people of region felt more to Russia than to Ukraine. My granny (who lived in Simferopol) once said "I hope they allow us to join back someday". Shame she didn't lived to this day =( Also, to the all professional politicians here - I am happy, that Crimea "came back", but not so happy with the methods. And no, I don't support Putin, but impressed with his stubborness.[/QUOTE] I don't think anyone would have an issue with the annexation of Crimea if it was done legally and not with military intervention on top of a rubber stamp democratic voting process.
[QUOTE=DrAkcel;46103508]To be precise - Turkish Crimea was fought upon in 1783, and then was gained by Russia. Then in Soviet Union, it was just gifted to Ukraine, but in "official" way (the drunk excuse of president just signed everything he needed to). Even after that people of region felt more to Russia than to Ukraine. My granny (who lived in Simferopol) once said "I hope they allow us to join back someday". Shame she didn't lived to this day =( Also, to the all professional politicians here - I am happy, that Crimea "came back", but not so happy with the methods. And no, I don't support Putin, but impressed with his stubborness.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't be impressed with a shithead who rips apart your laws, restricts your media violently, and cravenly sends your young to die in wars they didn't sign up for and even denies their families the truth to how they actually died and for what.
[QUOTE=MattSif;46103514]I wouldn't be impressed with a shithead who rips apart your laws, restricts your media violently, and cravenly sends your young to die in wars they didn't sign up for and even denies their families the truth to how they actually died and for what.[/QUOTE] And also allow to burn gay people on streets, and closing the internet. Right now I am writing throught airport terminal, but in any second FSB can arrive to throw me into jail for 20 years. If I won't come back - please remember me as a good man.
[QUOTE=DrAkcel;46103534]And also allow to burn gay people on streets, and closing the internet. Right now I am writing throught airport terminal, but in any second FSB can arrive to throw me into jail for 20 years. If I won't come back - please remember me as a good man.[/QUOTE] I hope you're joking, I really dislike Putin and all but I have rarely had issues with many Russians in my time on the internet. (Save for some of the shitheads on Red Orchestra)
Jolly what a mess of a discussion. I like how everyone actually goes "Hurr durr Russia wants diplomacy after it won" route. When actually we are in precise stalemate position. Russia got Crimea yes, but with a reasonable price. Butthurt NATO won't forget that and it's not like there is anyone in Russian Goverment who don't get that. We got sanctions, we got media painting us all the worst colors in a conflict that is actually grayer than a scorched earth. And everyone who is against the modest "Putin is evil, Russia is Evil, Russians are Zombies" even for simply questioning barrage of "coverage" in this times authomatically get denounced right to be considered as valuable opinion. There is an immense pressure on every country in EU order to support hysteria against Russia, forcing us to seek aid among developing countries. And this is going to strech out and blow up in proportions over next years even if Russia would be standing still. I'd say that's more then a big price, but Crimea was worth it. And not as landgrab, everyone who can't see beyond that is as delusional as he expects his opponents in this argument to be. It's a symbolic reminder to our "parthers". We were repeatly denied as big political player for long time, but now we can see that this game had rules only few were trying to follow.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;46103510]I don't think anyone would have an issue with the annexation of Crimea if it was done legally and not with military intervention on top of a rubber stamp democratic voting process.[/QUOTE] If they had tried they would have had a visit from the Ukrainian army. When the east started protesting the army came down on them, treating them like terrorists and shelling them. When people in odessa protested they were burnt to death/murdered. Russia was rightfully criticised for occupying Crimea but if they hadn't 1000s more would be dead, dying or displaced.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;46103589]If they had tried they would have had a visit from the Ukrainian army. When the east started protesting the army came down on them, treating them like terrorists and shelling them. When people in odessa protested they were burnt to death/murdered. Russia was rightfully criticised for occupying Crimea but if they hadn't 1000s more would be dead, dying or displaced.[/QUOTE] Yeah? Where's your evidence for that? Where's your evidence that if Russia had formed an international unbiased voting process in Crimea that Ukrainian soldiers would A) Come there and B) start murdering people. I want some evidence of those eastern protests being slaughtered by the military, systematically, and not in random accidental acts. Do remember that if what you're saying is true then Ukraine will never join either Nato or EU.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;46103589]When the east started protesting the army came down on them, treating them like terrorists and shelling them. [/QUOTE] Didn't the army only move in once the rebels killed a bunch of people, armed themselves and claimed their independence?
[QUOTE=laserguided;46100387]Eastern Europe belongs to Russia. Deal with it, that's the way it is.[/QUOTE]Interesting how those who say shit like this are always in countries that don't have to deal with the consequences of this sort of idiotic mentality.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46103588]Jolly what a mess of a discussion. I like how everyone actually goes "Hurr durr Russia wants diplomacy after it won" route. When actually we are in precise stalemate position. Russia got Crimea yes, but with a reasonable price. Butthurt NATO won't forget that and it's not like there is anyone in Russian Goverment who don't get that. We got sanctions, we got media painting us all the worst colors in a conflict that is actually grayer than a scorched earth. And everyone who is against the modest "Putin is evil, Russia is Evil, Russians are Zombies" even for simply questioning barrage of "coverage" in this times authomatically get denounced right to be considered as valuable opinion. There is an immense pressure on every country in EU order to support hysteria against Russia, forcing us to seek aid among developing countries. And this is going to strech out and blow up in proportions over next years even if Russia would be standing still. I'd say that's more then a big price, but Crimea was worth it. And not as landgrab, everyone who can't see beyond that is as delusional as he expects his opponents in this argument to be. It's a symbolic reminder to our "parthers". We were repeatly denied as big political player for long time, but now we can see that this game had rules only few were trying to follow.[/QUOTE] You're saying that people are just painting Russia as this "evil" country, while you really think it isn't. Then you say that annexing Crimea was just a "symbolic reminder" - of what? That the Soviet Union is still well alive and the neighbouring countries need to hold the line? And you were in the G8 were you not? And you're in the Security Council? Russia is a big political player, but the country is just viewed as a big joke. Just look at the dashcam videos - they really exemplify the picture people have of Russia. Annexing Crimea doesn't change that picture, it just makes certain that people in Western country will view Russia as a land grabbing, corrupt country that just happens to be big enough to be relevant. I mean, if Russia was broken up into smaller countries, would anyone care about those?
[QUOTE=deltasquid;46103671]Didn't the army only move in once the rebels killed a bunch of people, armed themselves and claimed their independence?[/QUOTE] No it was when they occupied government buildings. Which Maiden had done and protests have done in a number of countries previously which turned out peacefully and was solved using diplomacy. It should have been solved by listening to peoples demands and a vote, instead it was decided by bullets. It was a mixture of pro-federalists, pro-let-us-speak-russian-ists, seperatists, socialists and some wanting to join Russia. When people say pro-russian what they usually mean is rebels trying to form a seperate country, not rebels wanting to join Russia. There might have been some violence but there are always outliers and extremists, the issue arises when you paint everyone including the moderates with the same brush and start "anti-terror operations" against them. [editline]29th September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=EcksDee;46103666]Yeah? Where's your evidence for that? Where's your evidence that if Russia had formed an international unbiased voting process in Crimea that Ukrainian soldiers would A) Come there and B) start murdering people. I want some evidence of those eastern protests being slaughtered by the military, systematically, and not in random accidental acts. Do remember that if what you're saying is true then Ukraine will never join either Nato or EU.[/QUOTE] Also your post states a few things incorrectly. [quote]Russia had formed an international unbiased voting process in Crimea[/quote] Why would Russia get involved, it would be the people of Crimea and its local government seeking referendum for independence/federalisation. [quote]Come there and B) start murdering people.[/quote] The army was deployed in the east initially to stop protesters, when the people realised the army was being used against them they resisted. I suspect a similar thing would happen in Crimea, had Russia not annexed it. [quote]I want some evidence of those eastern protests being slaughtered by the military, systematically, and not in random accidental acts.[/quote] Again words in my mouth. The military was commencing in "anti terror operations" against protesters. It might not be "systematically slaughtering" but using the military to quell a protest is a bad call. Using military against a protesting population just after a forced change of government isn't the best way to make them feel more secure and stop protesting. Inevitably the protests turned to fighting once the army got involved, then they shelled and bombed the areas killing civilians and rebel alike. Also by employing the use of irregular private militia forces the government has meant they won't have to face the consequences of some of the things done by the "anti terror operation" I think they won't be able to enter the EU for economic and crime reasons, the EU is having trouble as it is and anti-EU/conservative nuts will vote against Ukraine joining. As for NATO I don't think that would damage their chances, they might not get in because of the violence but once it dies down they stand a good chance. Look at georgia they're on track for joining nato.
[QUOTE=MattSif;46103570]I hope you're joking, I really dislike Putin and all but I have rarely had issues with many Russians in my time on the internet. (Save for some of the shitheads on Red Orchestra)[/QUOTE] He's not joking. I've been visited by FSB for like ten times already just because i visit this site. This is quite disturbing, you know. They don't take off their shoes and kick my cat every fucking time. I hate them.
Also your post states a few things incorrectly. [QUOTE] Why would Russia get involved, it would be the people of Crimea and its local government seeking referendum for independence/federalisation. [/QUOTE] Because if Crimea wants to join Russia then they have a vested interest in making the elections happen. It Russia was actually not a piece of shit country, then they would have done so with an international voting agency with unbiased and objective processes. [QUOTE] The army was deployed in the east initially to stop protesters, when the people realised the army was being used against them they resisted. I suspect a similar thing would happen in Crimea, had Russia not annexed it.[/QUOTE] Source. [quote]Again words in my mouth. The military was commencing in "anti terror operations" against protesters. It might not be "systematically slaughtering" but using the military to quell a protest is a bad call. Using military against a protesting population just after a forced change of government isn't the best way to make them feel more secure and stop protesting. Inevitably the protests turned to fighting once the army got involved, then they shelled and bombed the areas killing civilians and rebel alike. [/quote] Double source. [QUOTE] Also by employing the use of irregular private militia forces the government has meant they won't have to face the consequences of some of the things done by the "anti terror operation"[/QUOTE] Triple source. These are massive claims you're throwing around here that I can't find anywhere. I see volunteer assholes in Ukraine causing havoc for no reason, I don't see any link between the government and these bandits. Also you said they're using the military for these anti terror operations, then that they employ private militia to carry out these attacks, which is it? You say they're against protesters, is this before or after eastern Ukraine started revolting in a Russian-funded armed uprising? Do you know that these shellings are done by Ukraine and not Russia? Do you know if Russian funded and trained rebels are using civilians as human shields or not?
Can we please stop the unreasonable Russophobia and just get that reset 2.0 Russia is no more agressive then US in its politics. Let's just stop the sanctions so both sides stop loosing money and continue our ever-going conflict without making unrelated businesses bankrupt. At least EU should drop that shit for sure.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46104396]Can we please stop the unreasonable Russophobia and just get that reset 2.0 Russia is no more agressive then US in its politics. Let's just stop the sanctions so both sides stop loosing money and continue our ever-going conflict without making unrelated businesses bankrupt. At least EU should drop that shit for sure.[/QUOTE] Contesting foreign politics isn't hating on a country and its people. Two wrongs still don't make a right, stop using US as an debatable option to justify Russian governmental actions. US politics are as contested as much as Russia are if you haven't noticed with the barrage of threads lately. Thanks.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46104396]Can we please stop the unreasonable Russophobia and just get that reset 2.0 Russia is no more agressive then US in its politics. Let's just stop the sanctions so both sides stop loosing money and continue our ever-going conflict without making unrelated businesses bankrupt. At least EU should drop that shit for sure.[/QUOTE] Like I said on a previous page. Give back the land you illegally annexed and pull out your armies and you'll have your second chance. You don't get to steal land and just say "hey guys i was just fooling ok lets just forget this happen ok"
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;46099754]Can we really call Russia imperialist? it has only taken military action in small areas of countries on it's borders. Unlike America which has attacked and occupied vast territories in nations on the other side of the globe.[/QUOTE] Jesus, some people skipped History class. Circa 1939: 'Can we really call Germany imperialist? it has only taken military action in small areas of countries on it's borders. Unlike Great Britain which has attacked and occupied vast territories in nations on the other side of the globe.' but let's let Putin have Ukraine I'm sure he'll stop there right guys
[QUOTE=deltasquid;46103671]Didn't the army only move in once the rebels killed a bunch of people, armed themselves and claimed their independence?[/QUOTE] Didn't. [editline]29th September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Gwoodman;46104401]Contesting foreign politics isn't hating on a country and its people. Two wrongs still don't make a right, stop using US as an debatable option to justify Russian governmental actions. US politics are as contested as much as Russia are if you haven't noticed with the barrage of threads lately. Thanks.[/QUOTE] I don't give a fuck about USA clashing with Russia non stop and pouring shit over eachother with their gov-funded media agencies. I just want people to stop loosing money because some politician thought it was a good idea.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46104396][B]Can we please stop the unreasonable Russophobia[/B] and just get that reset 2.0 Russia is no more agressive then US in its politics. Let's just stop the sanctions so both sides stop loosing money and continue our ever-going conflict without making unrelated businesses bankrupt. At least EU should drop that shit for sure.[/QUOTE]It's not a justifiable excuse for Israeli government policy, nor for Russian government policy.
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