• Russian Foreign Minister Calls for Second Reset
    162 replies, posted
[QUOTE=EcksDee;46104429]Like I said on a previous page. Give back the land you illegally annexed and pull out your armies and you'll have your second chance. You don't get to steal land and just say "hey guys i was just fooling ok lets just forget this happen ok"[/QUOTE] Go to Crimea's Sevastopol and tell these people that they are going back to Ukraine. Then make it out alive. I dare you. [editline]29th September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Sgt Doom;46104454]It's not a justifiable excuse for Israeli government policy, nor for Russian government policy.[/QUOTE] I am not talking about government policies, I am talking about facepunch being "Russia is so evil" over it. I don't see how not selling apples is going to somehow stop Russia from land grabs. If Russia wants to annex land it will continue doing it. Sanctions don't hurt the military much because all the fuel, raw an manufactured resources for it come from inside the country. The Western countries made their point clear, we all can see it worked. Your bluff works, Putin backs down. Now let's stop burning profits, shall we?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46104457]Go to Crimea's Sevastopol and tell these people that they are going back to Ukraine. Then make it out alive. I dare you. [/QUOTE] Does it fucking matter? If they want to join Russia then do so with a legal independently verified vote, not this farce you did. The fact of the matter is that you ILLEGALLY took land from a sovereign nation. I don't give a shit if every single person in Crimea wanted to join Russia, you do so legally, not by waving your dick under false pretenses and then organizing a fake vote.
I want to get off Mr. Putin's Wild Ride
[QUOTE=laserguided;46101469]If a single Baltic state had as much power as the US or Russia they would be way more insane than both combined. Go through a Baltic newspaper and you'll see what I mean.[/QUOTE] I don't understand. I'm going through a Latvian newspaper right now and the worst thing is election ads because every party sucks
[QUOTE=EcksDee;46104474]Does it fucking matter? If they want to join Russia then do so with a legal independently verified vote, not this farce you did. The fact of the matter is that you ILLEGALLY took land from a sovereign nation. I don't give a shit if every single person in Crimea wanted to join Russia, you do so legally, not by waving your dick under false pretenses and then organizing a fake vote.[/QUOTE] What people think > what you think about some bullshit "legality". Illegal is the best word to use when you have no actual justification for your accusations. The crimean people were not forced to vote. They were not at gun point. They volonteurely voted. Listen, yesterday my grandma arrived from Donetsk. She lived there ever since WWII. She gave birth to my father and his brother. She spent her whole life there. She told me a few stories yesterday. For example about the referendum in Donetsk. She said that during Yanuk elections people were basially forced to vote. Students were threatened with being kicked out of their univercities if they don't vote, people in the govermental sector were threatened with loosing jobs. During the referendum people came from far to vote. Everybody came. Disabled people came to vote. Literally everybody who could voted. Why? Another story. My grandma spent most of the Ukrainian conflict in her house in the village of Andryivka 20 km from Donetsk. One night during one of the first shellings of Donetsk some BTRs and Grads stationed near the village. They didn't interact with locals and nobody minded them. They shot at Donetsk with shells flying above the village. Grandma says all the yards were covered in shrapnel after some time. Later DNR soldiers made their push and Kiev machines had to leave. Before leaving they put a grenade without the pin under every gate and door they could reach. They said "gonna leave you a present". Touch such a door and you are dead, turned into meat with shrapnel. The people of Crimea voted out of fear, but not of Russia, but of Ukraine. Ukraine's problem now. Like it or not, but people in Crimea [b]want it to be a part of Russia[/b]. [b] Yes, it matters much more then all 'de-jure' arguments[/b]. Imgine that you are told that by some bullshit laws you should join North Korea. You say:"Hey, I don't want that", but you are told that laws tell you to. Would you protest or would you say:"It doesn't matter what I want, we should obey the laws" and depart to NK?
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;46103690]You're saying that people are just painting Russia as this "evil" country, while you really think it isn't. Then you say that annexing Crimea was just a "symbolic reminder" - of what? That the Soviet Union is still well alive and the neighbouring countries need to hold the line? And you were in the G8 were you not? And you're in the Security Council? Russia is a big political player, but the country is just viewed as a big joke. Just look at the dashcam videos - they really exemplify the picture people have of Russia. Annexing Crimea doesn't change that picture, it just makes certain that people in Western country will view Russia as a land grabbing, corrupt country that just happens to be big enough to be relevant. I mean, if Russia was broken up into smaller countries, would anyone care about those?[/QUOTE] It's a reminder that if you plan to surround country with missle bases with excuse "it's not aiming at you", that country might lose it temper and attempt to restore balance. Crimea was used as base for Russian Black Sea Fleet for a long time now and NATO was not happy with it, seeking control of region. At dawn of revolution it was quite obvious that EU decided to completely ignore anything that is not cotributing to image of new Ukranian goverment, soo when extremely radical shit started happening (Svoboda going ape shit on newscasters, ex cops and diplomats as example), it was just question of time when Black Sea Fleet get kicked out by force due to "Democratic, Pro European Choice". Soo we prevented it and showed big middle finger to NATO's plans. And what was G8 again? A damn golf club meeting? Oh a security council! When was last time Russia's position was actually considered? Even when we plead to help with removing chemical weaponry from Syria, there was a big stream of bullshit coming from US. Also, what kind of person judges country by dashcam videos on internet? This way lets make international rating of countries by videos of twisternederland as a conclusive opinion on quality of life. [QUOTE=Gwoodman;46104401]Contesting foreign politics isn't hating on a country and its people. Two wrongs still don't make a right, stop using US as an debatable option to justify Russian governmental actions. US politics are as contested as much as Russia are if you haven't noticed with the barrage of threads lately. Thanks.[/QUOTE] I would not say US politics were ever sanctioned for doing shit without UN approval in the past, and i don't see that happening now either. I'd say that is not about justification but example that nowadays international regulation is shit. And not ignoring it means to let US have all the fun alone. [QUOTE=EcksDee;46104474]Does it fucking matter? If they want to join Russia then do so with a legal independently verified vote, not this farce you did. The fact of the matter is that you ILLEGALLY took land from a sovereign nation. I don't give a shit if every single person in Crimea wanted to join Russia, you do so legally, not by waving your dick under false pretenses and then organizing a fake vote.[/QUOTE] I'd like to remind you that even when referendum was annouced and open for foreign spectrators it was already denounced by EU and US. Soo even if we had there everything crystal white and clean they'd still bitch about results, since they expected national referendum to decide, not region itself. It's like if entire UK was voting on Scotland's position.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;46104474] The fact of the matter is that you ILLEGALLY took land from a sovereign nation. I don't give a shit if every single person in Crimea wanted to join Russia, you do so legally, not by waving your dick under false pretenses and then organizing a fake vote.[/QUOTE] USA, USSR and capitalism were all born due to illegal actions. Are you saying Australia should become a Great Britain colony again because of some bullshit "legality"? Let's give Alaska back to Russia too beause the money for it never arrived from USA. Hell, Mongolia can argue that half the world belongs to it. [b]Legality and laws change all the time. People's opinion is what matters. This is why you didn't yell:"It's illegal!" during the scotalnd independence campagin discussions.[/b]
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46104444]I don't give a fuck about USA clashing with Russia non stop and pouring shit over eachother with their gov-funded media agencies. I just want people to stop loosing money because some politician thought it was a good idea.[/QUOTE] I didn't say anything about USA clashing with Russia, what are you talking about lmao [editline]29th September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=karimatrix;46104559]I would not say US politics were ever sanctioned for doing shit without UN approval in the past, and i don't see that happening now either. I'd say that is not about justification but example that nowadays international regulation is shit. And not ignoring it means to let US have all the fun alone.[/QUOTE] Again, stop bringing US into Russian politics, what the fuck, you call us russophobics when you're the ones that apparently have a hate-boner for America, you just can't stop putting them in every sentence.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46104559]I'd like to remind you that even when referendum was annouced and open for foreign spectrators it was already denounced by EU and US. Soo even if we had there everything crystal white and clean they'd still bitch about results, since they expected national referendum to decide, not region itself. It's like if entire UK was voting on Scotland's position.[/QUOTE] Don't fucking whitewash things that happened this year. The EU and US were like "yo, holding a referendum isn't exactly legal according to Ukrainian or international law so you should find another way first" and only when the whole thing turned into a sham did they denounce and condemn the moves by the Russian government and the Crimean separatists. Don't pretend this fucking farce is justified because some countries voiced their concern with radical changes happening in favor of a country that just lost its puppet dictator next door.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;46104319]Also your post states a few things incorrectly. Because if Crimea wants to join Russia then they have a vested interest in making the elections happen. It Russia was actually not a piece of shit country, then they would have done so with an international voting agency with unbiased and objective processes. [/quote] I can't deny Russia has a vested interest in Crimea and Ukraine but it is worth noting that on may 17th Putin discouraged the referendums in eastern Ukraine. If Russia hadn't occupied Crimea who is to say it would turn out differently? This is really a matter for speculation. I believe the people of Crimea (showing more support for Russia than eastern Ukraine does) would still go ahead pushing for referendum and would encounter the same response that east ukraine got. [quote] These are massive claims you're throwing around here that I can't find anywhere. I see volunteer assholes in Ukraine causing havoc for no reason, I don't see any link between the government and these bandits. Also you said they're using the military for these anti terror operations, then that they employ private militia to carry out these attacks, which is it? [/quote] I would say both. The government is using the Army and Militias in this "anti-terror operation". The pro-kiev militias are supported by Kiev. Coordinated attacks between the Army and the Militias suggests they have some form of communication, Arsen Avakov has stated support for the militias. The fact they are tolerated to swagger round the capital kitted out with guns suggests they have some kind of deal going on. [url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11025137/Ukraine-crisis-the-neo-Nazi-brigade-fighting-pro-Russian-separatists.html[/url] [quote]Recently formed battalions such as Donbas, Dnipro and Azov, with several thousand men under their command, are officially under the control of the interior ministry but their financing is murky, their training inadequate and their ideology often alarming.[/quote] [quote]You say they're against protesters, is this before or after eastern Ukraine started revolting in a Russian-funded armed uprising? [/quote] Well for the timeline : [url]http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/timeline-ukraine-political-crisis-201431143722854652.html[/url] [quote]April 6: Pro-Russian activists seize control of government buildings in the eastern cities of Donetsk, Luhansk and Kharkiv, calling for a referendum on independence. Ukraine authorities regain control of Kharkiv buildings on April 8 after launching an "anti-terror operation".[/quote] This is still a protest, a protest being threatened by use of military force. Note that pro-russian activist comprises also groups advocating the use of Russian language, protesters for federalisation, protesters for autonomy, protesters for joining russia and protesters simply against the government they see as illegitimate. At this point it is peaceful. In this time they barricade up, not wanting to stand down when threatened with force so we get. [quote]April 12: Pro-Russian gunmen take over the police station and security services building in the town of Slovyansk, 60 kilometres from Donetsk where pro-Russian rebels take over the police headquarters. The separatists also seize a police HQ in Kramatorsk.[/quote] 2 days after the "we're going to go military on ur ass". Threatened with military, some of the protesters/activists/rebels (or gunmen if you want to stir up a feeling of fear) are now armed and continue to barricade the buildings they have taken. [quote]April 13: Ukrainian special forces fail to dislodge pro-Russian gunmen in Slovyansk. One Ukrainian officer and o ne pro-Russian activist are killed in the operation. Meanwhile, the separatists seize the city council buildings in Mariupol and in Khartsyzsk.[/quote] Miltiary goes in and the killing starts. In the following days the Army steps up operations the rebels, now armed step up and begin popping up in other areas where protests were taking place, Mariupol. [quote]April 17: Ukrainian troops repel an overnight attack in Mariupol, killing three assailants. Around 200 people then demonstrate in the town against Kiev. Putin acknowledges that Russian forces were deployed in Crimea during the March referendum on joining Russia, but says he hopes not to have to use his "right" to send Russian troops into Ukraine. Lavrov announces in Geneva a deal has been reached with Ukraine, the US and the EU to "de-escalate" tensions in Ukraine.[/quote] [quote]Do you know that these shellings are done by Ukraine and not Russia? Do you know if Russian funded and trained rebels are using civilians as human shields or not?[/QUOTE] I can't say if or not the shellings were done by Russia or by Ukraine. I'm not sure of the range of Russian artillery, the Grad widely used in the conflict has a range of 20km, which would mean Russian armour would have had to cross pretty far into Ukrainian territory [b]at those early stages[/b], so the shelling and bombing must have been done by somebody else with artillery and planes. As for hostages, the people there wouldn't support the soldiers if they were taking hostages. Vice (relatively unbias/western bias) has recorded inside the eastern, rebel held cities and there is still support. There is bound to be a few assholes doing this though. There is proof of the cities being bombed, schools and hospitals blown up (vice records this also) people die in that kind of barrage.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46104564][b]Legality and laws change all the time. People's opinion is what matters. This is why you didn't yell:"It's illegal!" during the scotalnd independence campagin discussions.[/b][/QUOTE] THEN THE REFERENDUM SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT YOUR GOD DAMN MEDDLING. Maybe THEN would we have accepted the results because they would have accurately reflected the will of the people. An armed take-over doesn't, and letting it happen is a terrible precedent.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46104612] Again, stop bringing US into Russian politics, what the fuck, you call us russophobics when you're the ones that apparently have a hate-boner for America, you just can't stop putting them in every sentence.[/QUOTE] Don't you hate it when one kid is loud in class and always gets away with it and whenever another one makes a sound he is yelled at by everybody else?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46104648]Don't you hate it when one kid is loud in class and always gets away with it and whenever another one makes a sound he is yelled at by everybody else?[/QUOTE] What the hell does that even mean? Should all kids be loud in class? You're undermining your own argument lmao.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46104648]Don't you hate it when one kid is loud in class and always gets away with it and whenever another one makes a sound he is yelled at by everybody else?[/QUOTE] Comparing high school shenanigans to world politics? Totally credible to support your opinion.
[QUOTE=deltasquid;46104646]THEN THE REFERENDUM SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT YOUR GOD DAMN MEDDLING. Maybe THEN would we have accepted the results because they would have accurately reflected the will of the people. An armed take-over doesn't, and letting it happen is a terrible precedent.[/QUOTE] Without the green men I believe the Kiev forces would raze the fucking penisula for even trying to hold a referendum. Donetsk region and Lugansk region just wanted more power to local states and got regular army on them. I doubt Kiev would just let Crimea go if Crimea wanted to go.
[QUOTE]MuffinZerg posted: What people think > what you think about some bullshit "legality". Illegal is the best word to use when you have no actual justification for your accusations. The crimean people were not forced to vote. They were not at gun point. They volonteurely voted.[/QUOTE] Your anecdotes are very nice, yeah, but the referendum was a sham. It had no option to remain under Ukraine. Because of this most Tartars and Ukrainians in Crimea boycotted the vote, because no matter what they voted it would support joining Russia. We're talking choice 1 which was "join Russia now" or choice 2 which was "Restore the 1992 constitution and thus join Russia in a few days" Funny how ~40% of people in crimea wanted to join Russia a month before the referendum, and suddenly with the vote you get a 97% vox populi which is pretty much literally unheard of in any democratic system. You can cry all you want about your grandmother or who the fuck ever, if it's illegal it's illegal. That North Korea analogy, by the way, is fucking retarded. [editline]29th September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46104564]USA, USSR and capitalism were all born due to illegal actions. Are you saying Australia should become a Great Britain colony again because of some bullshit "legality"? Let's give Alaska back to Russia too beause the money for it never arrived from USA. Hell, Mongolia can argue that half the world belongs to it. [b]Legality and laws change all the time. People's opinion is what matters. This is why you didn't yell:"It's illegal!" during the scotalnd independence campagin discussions.[/b][/QUOTE] This isn't about changing laws, you could have had a completely lawful secession from Ukraine. Instead you came in guns blazing.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46104659]Without the green men I believe the Kiev forces would raze the fucking penisula for even trying to hold a referendum. Donetsk region and Lugansk region just wanted more power to local states and got regular army on them. I doubt Kiev would just let Crimea go if Crimea wanted to go.[/QUOTE] Citation needed.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46104659]Without the green men I believe the Kiev forces would raze the fucking penisula for even trying to hold a referendum. Donetsk region and Lugansk region just wanted more power to local states and got regular army on them. I doubt Kiev would just let Crimea go if Crimea wanted to go.[/QUOTE] yeah, and then the entire rest of the world, including the EU and Russia would immediately cut off Ukraine from all politics and economic interactions. Do you even spend half a minute to think about anything?
Hey MuffinZerg if you think Ukraine belongs to Russia so much then why don't you join the rebels?
[QUOTE=deltasquid;46104634]Don't fucking whitewash things that happened this year. The EU and US were like "yo, holding a referendum isn't exactly legal according to Ukrainian or international law so you should find another way first" and only when the whole thing turned into a sham did they denounce and condemn the moves by the Russian government and the Crimean separatists. Don't pretend this fucking farce is justified because some countries voiced their concern with radical changes happening in favor of a country that just lost its puppet dictator next door.[/QUOTE] Theres white washes on both sides. A government is kicked out then when people protest against the change they are threatened by the Military. How about the things the pro-kiev militias have done or even the army itself. How about the various assholes in government or the banning of political parties (party of regions is due to be removed entirely before next election). 42 people murdered in Odessa by "activists" because they were protesting. If the people supported the government the government wouldn't have to do all these things but they have made themselves very difficult to support for some people through bad decisions and questionable alignments.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;46104681]Theres white washes on both sides. A government is kicked out then when people protest against the change they are threatened by the Military. How about the things the pro-kiev militias have done or even the army itself. How about the various assholes in government or the banning of political parties (party of regions is due to be removed entirely before next election). 42 people murdered in Odessa by "activists" because they were protesting. If the people supported the government the government wouldn't have to do all these things but they have made themselves very difficult to support for some people through bad decisions and questionable alignments.[/QUOTE] Answer my questions up there. Source them.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;46104662] This isn't about changing laws, you could have had a completely lawful secession from Ukraine. Instead you came in guns blazing.[/QUOTE] Lets try it your way: Citation needed. People tried, they got treated as terrorists. [editline]29th September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=EcksDee;46104684]Answer my questions up there. Source them.[/QUOTE] Look at the time line. Protesters occupied buildings peacefully, then got threatened with army then they turned violent. Even then some were just after concessions or more autonomy. If you can't read my post and click on a link then you are beyond hope.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;46104662] Funny how ~40% of people in crimea wanted to join Russia a month before the referendum, and suddenly with the vote you get a 97% vox populi which is pretty much literally unheard of in any democratic system. [/QUOTE] Get out of your chair, go get in some trouble. Under gun point eveybody becomes a quick decision-maker, don't you think? It's very easy to think that laws mean more then people until these laws fuck you over. If Estonia suddenly made a law that would allow to murder people that match a certain criteria (race, skin colour, social class) would you be fine with that? What if that criteria matched you? I just really want to know what stands behind the idea that "you can say what you want, laws are more important then people". Are laws more important then your life? Especially controversial laws, laws that are not even laws but are merely speculation? If you listen to both pro-Ukrainian and pro-Russian orators then you would hear the same shit:"Crimea is ethnically/geographically/historically/whatever-the-fuckally ours". So there are two polar opinions. What makes you think that it's your opinion that's right? Tell me, are laws more important then people's lives?
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;46104689]Lets try it your way: Citation needed. People tried, they got treated as terrorists.[/QUOTE] Backpedaling 101
[QUOTE=GoldenDargon;46104678]Hey MuffinZerg if you think Ukraine belongs to Russia so much then why don't you join the rebels?[/QUOTE] Point out where I said that Ukraine belongs to Russia and I will join the rebels immediately and will post proof.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46104699]Backpedaling 101[/QUOTE] How exactly? People tried for diplomacy, they protested again the government, they protested for autonomy. They were given 2 days to stop before the army was sent in. So please, provide source otherwise!
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46104707]Point out where I said that Ukraine belongs to Russia and I will join the rebels immediately and will post proof.[/QUOTE] Crimea is part of the Ukraine, plain and simple. If you think Crimea belongs to Russia then by extension Ukraine does as well by that logic.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;46104716]How exactly? People tried for diplomacy, they protested again the government, they protested for autonomy. They were given 2 days to stop before the army was sent in. So please, provide source otherwise![/QUOTE] No no no what are you talking about again? Someone asked for sources and you didn't give any, now you're asking for sources yourself. [editline]29th September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE]So please, provide source otherwise![/QUOTE] You first.
I just don't know people. You hate Putin, you hate Russia. That's okay, that's about opinions. But you are the ones that always yell about human rights in all threads. About freedom. About poor people dying. So freedom of speech and choice don't apply if another country's military force is present in the area? People dying is okay as long as they are labeled terrorists? Regular people not being paid enough in USA due to low minimal wage is a disaster to facepunch worth a 20 page discussion and 100 friendly ratings. Regular people loosing money in EU, USA and Russia due to purely political clashes - no issue here, not even worth thinking about it. I don't know guys. Enough facepunch for today.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46104726]No no no what are you talking about again? Someone asked for sources and you didn't give any, now you're asking for sources yourself.[/QUOTE] I did, read my post and the timeline. 16th they peacefully occupied buildings as protesters (protesters do this btw). They were given 48 hours or the army would be sent in. [url]http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/timeline-ukraine-political-crisis-201431143722854652.html[/url] If that is too much for you to read then I suggest taking a break from trying to discuss this kind of thing.
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