• Russian Foreign Minister Calls for Second Reset
    162 replies, posted
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46104738]I just don't know people. You hate Putin, you hate Russia. That's okay, that's about opinions. But you are the ones that always yell about human rights in all threads. About freedom. About poor people dying. So freedom of speech and choice don't apply if another country's military force is present in the area? People dying is okay as long as they are labeled terrorists? Regular people not being paid enough in USA due to low minimal wage is a disaster to facepunch worth a 20 page discussion and 100 friendly ratings. Regular people loosing money in EU, USA and Russia due to purely political clashes - no issue here, not even worth thinking about it. I don't know guys. Enough facepunch for today.[/QUOTE] "We don't hate Russia, we just don't like their landgrabbing politics" "WHY DO YOU GUYS HATE RUSSIA? HERE'S SOMETHING BAD ABOUT THE EU AND THE USA." Quit acting like Russian government is a victim of harassment when the EU and the USA are always dealing with their citizens problems and complaints, do you even read the other threads or the amount of protests in western European countries and the US? What a joke.
[QUOTE=catbarf;46104434]Jesus, some people skipped History class. Circa 1939: 'Can we really call Germany imperialist? it has only taken military action in small areas of countries on it's borders. Unlike Great Britain which has attacked and occupied vast territories in nations on the other side of the globe.' but let's let Putin have Ukraine I'm sure he'll stop there right guys[/QUOTE] Did you know that Hitler greatly admired the British Empire? He was disappointed that they ended up fighting, he envisaged that one day after Russia had been defeated that Germany and Britain would unite in a long glorious Naval war against the United States.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;46104689]Lets try it your way: Citation needed. People tried, they got treated as terrorists. [/QUOTE] That's not how it works. Cite me the secession attempt that was forcefully silenced since you're making the claim. Though here: Crimea's constitution says "The Autonomous Republic of Crimea shall be an integral part of Ukraine and it shall solve, within the powers conferred upon it by the Constitution of Ukraine, any and all matters coming within its terms of reference." "The principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples... ...The establishment of a sovereign and independent State, the free association or integration with an independent State or the emergence into any other political status freely determined by that people" 1970 declaration on principles of international law. Since Crimea is an autonomous republic it could have cited that as legal precedent to secede. [QUOTE] Look at the time line. Protesters occupied buildings peacefully, then got threatened with army then they turned violent. Even then some were just after concessions or more autonomy. If you can't read my post and click on a link then you are beyond hope.[/QUOTE] Occupying a city hall is in no way a peaceful protest. While calling it a terror attack is a bit too much, it's definitely in the realm of nonviolent military intervention now. [QUOTE] 2 days after the "we're going to go military on ur ass". Threatened with military, some of the protesters/activists/rebels (or gunmen if you want to stir up a feeling of fear) are now armed and continue to barricade the buildings they have taken.[/QUOTE] So are we both agreeing that it's now a civil war and not a peaceful protest that caused the action to escalate? The reason the protesters got violent was because it was taking too long to pass a bill, not because of the two or three deaths earlier. [QUOTE]In the following days the Army steps up operations. The rebels, now armed [B](by Russia)[/B] step up and begin popping up in other areas where protests were taking place, Mariupol.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]he hopes not to have to use his "right" to send Russian troops into Ukraine. Lavrov announces in Geneva a deal has been reached with Ukraine, the US and the EU to "de-escalate" tensions in Ukraine.[/QUOTE] There's a reason "right" is in scarequotes. [QUOTE]I would say both. The government is using the Army and Militias in this "anti-terror operation". The pro-kiev militias are supported by Kiev. Coordinated attacks between the Army and the Militias suggests they have some form of communication, Arsen Avakov has stated support for the militias. The fact they are tolerated to swagger round the capital kitted out with guns suggests they have some kind of deal going on.[/QUOTE] Fair enough, I had no idea they were doing that. Great thing is that still doesn't validate this landscape you've painted of "the evil bad Ukraine shelling peaceful flower-toting protesters"
[QUOTE=EcksDee;46104866]That's not how it works. Cite me the secession attempt that was forcefully silenced since you're making the claim. Though here: Crimea's constitution says "The Autonomous Republic of Crimea shall be an integral part of Ukraine and it shall solve, within the powers conferred upon it by the Constitution of Ukraine, any and all matters coming within its terms of reference."[/quote] I think you misread by post about Crimea. I said Russia saved lives by going in there. If Crimea had attempted any kind of vote the Ukrainian gov would have gone in the same way they did in the east. [quote] "The principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples... ...The establishment of a sovereign and independent State, the free association or integration with an independent State or the emergence into any other political status freely determined by that people" 1970 declaration on principles of international law. Since Crimea is an autonomous republic it could have cited that as legal precedent to secede. [/quote] The gov would have called it "russia funded terrorism" and done the same thing they did in the east. [quote] Occupying a city hall is in no way a peaceful protest. While calling it a terror attack is a bit too much, it's definitely in the realm of nonviolent military intervention now. [/quote] I personally agree that occupying buildings isn't the right way to do things, it does happen in protests though. Protesters occupying buildings is not an unusual thing though. [url]http://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/feb/23/protesters-occupy-lambeth-hall-cuts[/url] Occupying buildings is something protesters do to get their voice heard. I disagree with the use of military, even if nonviolent. Using military forces people into the decision "fight or flight". You don't want them to fight and by using military to scare them away you are ruling by fear. [quote] So are we both agreeing that it's now a civil war and not a peaceful protest that caused the action to escalate? [/quote] I say it escalated because of the threat of use of military. Like I said people pick fight or flight. Military is not the right thing to use against protests. [quote] The reason the protesters got violent was because it was taking too long to pass a bill, not because of the two or three deaths earlier. [/quote] This is arguable, I stand by my point that it was the threat of military which caused them to get violent. Some people would rather fight and die than live under fear and the threat of disproportionate force. [quote] There's a reason "right" is in scarequotes. [/quote] I agree, it was not putins right to go in, I never said this. There should have been a group of international peacekeepers sent there. [quote] Fair enough, I had no idea they were doing that. Great thing is that still doesn't validate this landscape you've painted of "the evil bad Ukraine shelling peaceful flower-toting protesters"[/QUOTE] Theres more, that thing about kidnapping for use in prisoner exchanges. Or this [quote=osce]The ‘military police’ of ‘Donetsk People’s Republic’ (‘DPR’) told the SMM that three unmarked graves allegedly containing multiple bodies had been found; two of them were located in a coal mine Komunar near the village Nyzhnia Krynka (35km north-east of Donetsk) and one inside the village. The SMM proceeded to the scene and saw in the coal mine two areas located fifty metres apart, each containing two human bodies. All four corpses were in the process of decomposition. The SMM also saw eight 9mm Makarov pistol cartridges approximately five meters away from the bodies. Near the road on the edge of the village, the SMM observed a pile of earth resembling a grave which had a stick with a plaque, written in Russian and containing the names (or in one case – initials) of five individuals. The plaque indicated that the individuals died on 27.08.2014. On top of the plaque there was another inscription saying: ‘Died for Putin’s lies’. [/quote] [url]http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/124216[/url] Thats a mass grave, with executed people, inside territory formerly held by by pro-kiev militias. The doesn't look like SMM is going to do any forensics on this though. Oddly the western media hasn't jumped at the opportunity to publish this yet. No idea why Also [quote]Also in Nyzhnia Krynka the SMM observed a destroyed bridge over the water reservoir, connecting the locality with Donetsk. According to local residents the bridge was blown up by Ukrainian soldiers leaving the area around 18 September.[/quote] Destroying the infrastructure as they leave.
If only freedom loving USA swept in to save the baltic states.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46104559]It's a reminder that if you plan to surround country with missle bases with excuse "it's not aiming at you", that country might lose it temper and attempt to restore balance. Crimea was used as base for Russian Black Sea Fleet for a long time now and NATO was not happy with it, seeking control of region. At dawn of revolution it was quite obvious that EU decided to completely ignore anything that is not cotributing to image of new Ukranian goverment, soo when extremely radical shit started happening (Svoboda going ape shit on newscasters, ex cops and diplomats as example), it was just question of time when Black Sea Fleet get kicked out by force due to "Democratic, Pro European Choice". Soo we prevented it and showed big middle finger to NATO's plans. And what was G8 again? A damn golf club meeting? Oh a security council! When was last time Russia's position was actually considered? Even when we plead to help with removing chemical weaponry from Syria, there was a big stream of bullshit coming from US. Also, what kind of person judges country by dashcam videos on internet? This way lets make international rating of countries by videos of twisternederland as a conclusive opinion on quality of life. [/QUOTE] G8 means you're at the meeting other powerful nations attend. And Russia has veto power in the security council, which is something only 5 nations have. It should be noted that Russia is a smaller economy than any of the other permanent members of the security council, but of course it's more populous than France and the UK. Doesn't that reflect that Russia is actually given power beyond what its economy would suggest? I'm against needless passive aggression from NATO, but annexing Crimea isn't the proper answer to that. And I just brought up the dashcam videos as an example of how people view Russia, not how the country actually is. Russia has an image problem, that's for sure. [editline]29th September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=laserguided;46108288]If only freedom loving USA swept in to save the baltic states.[/QUOTE] If only laserguided would stop sweeping in with unrelated posts.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46104738]I just don't know people. You hate Putin, you hate Russia. That's okay, that's about opinions. But you are the ones that always yell about human rights in all threads. About freedom. About poor people dying. So freedom of speech and choice don't apply if another country's military force is present in the area? People dying is okay as long as they are labeled terrorists? Regular people not being paid enough in USA due to low minimal wage is a disaster to facepunch worth a 20 page discussion and 100 friendly ratings. Regular people loosing money in EU, USA and Russia due to purely political clashes - no issue here, not even worth thinking about it. I don't know guys. Enough facepunch for today.[/QUOTE] I'm not really sure what you're expecting to happen. Ukrainians force an [URL="https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/serhij-leschenko/yanukovych-luxury-residence-and-money-trail-that-leads-to-london"]extremly corrupt[/URL] president from office. Russia rolls into Crimea with its military (despite saying at the time that they weren't doing that), and forces Ukrainian soldiers to surrender their military infrastructure. A "referendum" is then held in a few short days within this region that's occupied by a foreign military. International observers are not allowed. In eastern Ukraine self-declared republics start popping up. Journalists and OSCE members are periodically held hostage by local militia; a civilian airliner is shot down over the area; multiple [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People%27s_Republic#Human_rights"]human rights[/URL] issues are observed. Again, Russia says its not involved despite the mounting evidence that says otherwise. So why should the US and EU just "reset" their diplomatic relations with Russia after all this has happened?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46104738]I just don't know people. You hate Putin, you hate Russia.[/QUOTE] They hate Putin's Russia* You're mistaking the very reasonable disdain for the current Russian government as a general russophobia
[QUOTE=laserguided;46100387]Eastern Europe belongs to Russia. Deal with it, that's the way it is.[/QUOTE] And Canada belongs to the Unites States of America, because it's in North [I]America.[/I] See that? That's your stupid. That's your stupid you're viewing with your eyeballs. [QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46104738] I don't know guys. Enough facepunch for today.[/QUOTE] Or you could leave the site. You know for good. Since you hate being in this cesspool of Russophobes apparently.
[QUOTE=LiquidNazgul;46108798]And Canada belongs to the Unites States of America, because it's in North [I]America.[/I] See that? That's your stupid. That's your stupid you're viewing with your eyeballs. Or you could leave the site. You know for good. Since you hate being in this cesspool of Russophobes apparently.[/QUOTE] Canada pretty much belongs to the US. Especially with Harper in command.
[QUOTE=laserguided;46109410]Canada pretty much belongs to the US. Especially with Harper in command.[/QUOTE] You've got some seriously bizarre worldviews, dude.
[QUOTE=LiquidNazgul;46108798] Or you could leave the site. You know for good. Since you hate being in this cesspool of Russophobes apparently.[/QUOTE] Where am I going to get a flow of funny videos and rageful pointless politicial debate then?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46111093]Where am I going to get a flow of funny videos and rageful pointless politicial debate then?[/QUOTE] Reddit.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46104738]I just don't know people. You hate Putin, you hate Russia. That's okay, that's about opinions. [/QUOTE] Hey yo dumbnut I have seen no one here in this thread say they overtly hate the entirety of Russia. Stop pulling your bullshit loaded sentences. [editline]29th September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=laserguided;46109410]Canada pretty much belongs to the US. Especially with Harper in command.[/QUOTE] Do you get your political information entirely from shady internet sources?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46111093]Where am I going to get a flow of funny videos and rageful pointless politicial debate then?[/QUOTE] Reddit and 4chan have all the content before Facepunch does.
I'd also like to point out that you people (mdeciever, Laserguided, Katamatrix etc) are misusing the term "Russophobia". The term Russophobia implies that we have an irrational fear of anything related to Russia. If being critical of a governments foreign policy makes me "Phobic" of them then I guess I'm an Earthophobe.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;46111249]I'd also like to point out that you people (mdeciever, Laserguided, Katamatrix etc) are misusing the term "Russophobia". The term Russophobia implies that we have an irrational fear of anything related to Russia. If being critical of a governments foreign policy makes me "Phobic" of them then I guess I'm an Earthophobe.[/QUOTE] Oh I'm getting mentioned! No there are a number of users here who believe anything bad they hear about Russia without questioning it. Either they are stupid or want to believe Russia is bad to justify their negative feelings toward Russia. Had it been a different country doing this stuff you would question whether their leader actually said 'I could invade Poland' or you would support their illegal military actions.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;46111321]Oh I'm getting mentioned! No there are a number of users here who believe anything bad they hear about Russia without questioning it. Either they are stupid or want to believe Russia is bad to justify their negative feelings toward Russia. Had it been a different country doing this stuff you would question whether their leader actually said 'I could invade Poland' or you would support their illegal military actions.[/QUOTE] Did you actually fucking read the thing you quoted or did you just blindly bash it?
[QUOTE=Kyle902;46111330]Did you actually fucking read the thing you quoted or did you just blindly bash it?[/QUOTE] I guess me saying I got mentioned was done immaculate feat of luck. I read it. I stand by my statement that there are lots of Russophobes here, blindly believing the most unlikely things about Russia and hypocritically criticising Russia using double standards. People dislike or fear Russia and are there quicker to make negative judgments or believe the crap which gets spouted by the unquestionably bias Ukrainian government
[QUOTE=Kyle902;46111249]I'd also like to point out that you people (mdeciever, Laserguided, Katamatrix etc) are misusing the term "Russophobia". The term Russophobia implies that we have an irrational fear of anything related to Russia. If being critical of a governments foreign policy makes me "Phobic" of them then I guess I'm an Earthophobe.[/QUOTE] You are very smart here I see. Howere wikipedia begs to differ. Of course your knowledge based on intuitively knowing what "phobia" means is more credible, but I will still quote it. [quote] ussophobia (New Latin origin, from Russo + phobia, from Ancient Greek -φοβία, -phobía) is a diverse spectrum of negative feelings, dislikes, fears, aversion, derision and/or prejudice of Russia, Russians, Russian policy, science and/or Russian culture.[1][2] [/quote] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russophobia[/url] It's a term that has been around since the Cold War for something that has been around since Russia was a thing. And due to historical reasons it doesn't only mean "irrational fear".
[QUOTE=Furioso;46111070]You've got some seriously bizarre worldviews, dude.[/QUOTE] Do you disagree? Harper pretty much aligns himself with the U.S. at every chance whilst the opposition is constantly anti-war. We couldn't defend ourselves even if we wanted to.
[QUOTE=laserguided;46111689]Do you disagree? Harper pretty much aligns himself with the U.S. at every chance whilst the opposition is constantly anti-war. We couldn't defend ourselves even if we wanted to.[/QUOTE] In military terms, sure, but even countries like Denmark who aligns itself with the US on foreign policy has a very distinct domestic policy - and a completely different culture. You could say Ukraine belongs to Russia simply because of Russia's military dominance, but the fact of the matter is that Ukraine is country with 8 times the population of Denmark, and only half of the GDP. It's easy to play pretend superpower when all your neighbours are poor as dirt.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;46111839]In military terms, sure, but even countries like Denmark who aligns itself with the US on foreign policy has a very distinct domestic policy - and a completely different culture. You could say Ukraine belongs to Russia simply because of Russia's military dominance, but the fact of the matter is that Ukraine is country with 8 times the population of Denmark, and only half of the GDP. It's easy to play pretend superpower when all your neighbours are poor as dirt.[/QUOTE] Ukraine is economically interconnected with Russia. Most of Ukraine's economy is designed to serve Russia. Now Russia owns 2 Ukrainian provinces. I'd say they're well within their sphere of influence.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46111587]You are very smart here I see. Howere wikipedia begs to differ. Of course your knowledge based on intuitively knowing what "phobia" means is more credible, but I will still quote it. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russophobia[/url] It's a term that has been around since the Cold War for something that has been around since Russia was a thing. And due to historical reasons it doesn't only mean "irrational fear".[/QUOTE] And I still fail too see how it applies considering the extent of our "negative feelings, dislikes, fears, aversions" is the criticism of a specific part of the Russian governments foreign policy. You're pulling the victim card to garner sympathy and invalidate arguments. You, however, are not a victim because we never where criticizing the Russian populace, only the government. [editline]30th September 2014[/editline] Criticism doesn't make you a victim for that matter.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;46113298]And I still fail too see how it applies considering the extent of our "negative feelings, dislikes, fears, aversions" is the criticism of a specific part of the Russian governments foreign policy. You're pulling the victim card to garner sympathy and invalidate arguments. You, however, are not a victim because we never where criticizing the Russian populace, only the government. [editline]30th September 2014[/editline] Criticism doesn't make you a victim for that matter.[/QUOTE] I don't want to be a victim or something like that. I just want a cold constructive discussion about Russia. I don't see why you guys have to put Russia in the same line as ISIS. Take a look at ISIS related threads and Russia related threads. Notice the similarity? First 5-6 posts are like "Oh I hope these fuckers die" "I want to get off Putin's wild ride" "Why can't we send all of our NATO missile freedom carriers yet?" etc etc. All these edgy comments only to get some agree ratings. And if somebody points out stuff like "Hey guys, the article is from Baltic media and was proven to be fake" or just posts a different opinion people start quoting the post and replying only with the poster's flag (if russian) or outright insulting posts. My goal is not to convert anyone to worship our glorious emperor, but to get people to see that it's a battle of opinions and for the most part nobody is right or wrong. I want people to see that Russia is not an evil empire Facepunch likes it to be, it's just a country like any other. Perhaps I am unwillingly pulling the victim card, but I am doing it while trying to point out that your view of Russia is biased. At least listen to mdeceiver79, his flag is more credible then mine in your eyes (and his posts are always informative and overally great too).
Did you really just bring up ISIS while asking for a cold constructive discussion?
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46113711]Did you really just bring up ISIS while asking for a cold constructive discussion?[/QUOTE] Yes I did. Read the post please. Or maybe in your opinion ISIS being terrorists makes it okay to not discuss them constructively? Also mentioning ISIS somehow prevents you from discussing a different topic constructively? Maybe you have some deep issues related to ISIS? It seems to impact you too much. I would get that checked.
I did read it? You compared our arguments to the ones of ISIS when just a couple of posters said those things despite the high number of people trying to argue with you while you deny everything. You want a cold constructive discussion yet you compare our words to the same of terrorists. When did anyone trying to have a decent argument with you that isn't an obvious bad debater or shitposters call Russia a terrorist state? "Your view of Russia is biased", and yours isn't why? [editline]30th September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46113756]Or maybe in your opinion ISIS being terrorists makes it okay to not discuss them constructively? Also mentioning ISIS somehow prevents you from discussing a different topic constructively? Maybe you have some deep issues related to ISIS? It seems to impact you too much. I would get that checked.[/QUOTE] What? Why are you shitposting now? Is this your constructive way of a discussion? What does ISIS have to do with Ukraine and Russia? [editline]30th September 2014[/editline] Why are you using ISIS to avoid talking about Russia?
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46113774]I did read it? You compared our arguments to the ones of ISIS when just a couple of posters said those things despite the high number of people trying to argue with you while you deny everything. You want a cold constructive discussion yet you compare our words to the same of terrorists. When did anyone trying to have a decent argument with you that isn't an obvious bad debater or shitposters call Russia a terrorist state? "Your view of Russia is biased", and yours isn't why?[/QUOTE] Actually many people had constructive discussions with me and gave me a lot of useful information in process. I give you the very unexisting award of my most Favourite Worst Poster 2014. I don't think you care, but still. Let's end the discussion, we won't get anywhere with it (well, maybe to refugee camp).
Are you having a breakdown? [editline]30th September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46113790]Actually many people had constructive discussions with me and gave me a lot of useful information in process.[/QUOTE] That you denied multiple times claiming it to be biased and hateboners for Russia. Nice cold constructive discussions.
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