• Lawsuit Filed Against Hughes Amendment of 1986
    104 replies, posted
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46387548]Wait. Wait. You're saying the criminals are following the law? How naive are you?[/QUOTE] Alright, I guess we should legalize theft, rape and murder then, because what good is a law when criminals wont obey them anyway?
[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;46387720]Alright, I guess we should legalize theft, rape and murder then, because what good is a law when criminals wont obey them anyway?[/QUOTE] What
[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;46387720]Alright, I guess we should legalize theft, rape and murder then, because what good is a law when criminals wont obey them anyway?[/QUOTE] You can own a weapon without harming other people. You can't commit a rape or murder without harming someone.
[QUOTE=RR_Raptor65;46387824]You can own a weapon without harming other people. You can't commit a rape or murder without harming someone.[/QUOTE] No, he implied that having a law in place is pointless because someone is going to end up breaking it anyway.
[QUOTE=proboardslol;46385751]I have a question for pro-gun people. If you lived in a country which banned guns and had a low gun crime rate, would you be for the legalization of firearms even then?[/QUOTE] The way I see it, adding guns into an environment with low crime rates shouldn't effect the crime rate. That's like saying legalizing marijuana is going to lead to an increase in impaired driving when in reality the overall rates should stay the same. The only difference is that law abiding citizens will own guns for recreation and use it to defend themselves which would lead to an increased instance of gun homicide, which doesn't however, directly lead to an increase in crime since homicide =/= murder (suicide by gun/gun accidents/self defense*). *some countries ban self defense using firearms but have not banned gun ownership, however most cases are thrown out in court if it was justified and not an excessive use of force.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;46386971]"I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a drug dealer who can get you a Russian light machine gun for $200" isn't sufficient evidence to prove the existence of an underground gun market.[/QUOTE] In his defense, theres no real way to prove one way or the other because all evidence we could bring to the table on this is all anecdotal, so it's really a moot discussion.
I'm not surprised when I imagine some guy spending 28 years in a room going over the law with a microscope in the hopes of finding a loophole and then one day bursting out of the room screaming "I GOT IT! I GOT IT! WE'RE GETTING MORE GUNS, MAN!" I mean, large portions of the US gun industry relies on loopholes to survive.
[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;46387375]Ever considered that the ban on automatics is actually keeping the automatics out of the hands of criminals and there is therefore crime by automatics is negligible. Lets keep it that way.[/QUOTE] I can't believe I'm actually bothering to reply to you but fuck it. What makes you think criminals use legally obtained weapons in the first place? They're almost always a fuckton more expensive, and trackable.
[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;46387720]Alright, I guess we should legalize theft, rape and murder then, because what good is a law when criminals wont obey them anyway?[/QUOTE] Hey can you stop being so emotional for 12 and a half seconds and actually take the time to read our posts? Fully automatic firearms are not banned in the US, nor have they ever been. The Hughes Amendment of 1986, the one talked about in the article, banned the [b]manufacture[/b] and registration of Fully Automatic firearms after 19th of May, 1986. Now, in the 52 years the NFA act has been in effect (Thats the bill that forced folks to register Fully Automatic Firearms with the BATFE, as well as SBR's and SBS's) prior to the Hughes Amendment, there were 2 homicides with [b]registered[/b] fully automatic firearms. Every other homicide with a Fully Automatic firearm was done with an illegal and unregistered one. So, removing the ban of manufacture and registration of Fully Automatics in the US is not at all akin to legalize rape or murder. Quit taking everything to the extremes, bud.
[QUOTE=proboardslol;46385972]On what basis would you introduce guns into another country with low gun crime[/quote] The same reason I'm glad the Czech Republic allows firearms: Because it doesn't change crime for one way or the other. The thing that mostly haunts us in the states is poverty and suicide. If firearms were such a massive issue around the world, we would have cases where after-war scenarios would leave thousands of unregistered firearms around the warzone. For example, the Kosovo Wars should of left thousands of firearms out in the open for people to grab, and yet instead of seeing these firearms becoming major utensils used in murder, they tend to end up in a collectors collection, with sometimes the firearms simply being disassembled and sent to the United States to be rebuilt under legal firearm guidelines. Another thing to take into account is that with the current campaigns in Ukraine, we should start seeing an explosion of blackmarket firearms in Europe. If this is to happen, we may see an increase in gun crime in the next few years. Overall, gun crime is entirely tied down to the Broken Window Theory. More broken windows, more crime. If you can give people jobs, repair up neighborhoods, give people proper medical care, you'll see a major decrease in guncrime and suicides alike. If you do not do this, you are bound to see more issues. Not to mention that by increasing the ownership of concealed carry firearms across the United States, we have seen an actual decrease in violent crime. Problem is though it could also be tied into with the rise in violent video games, ban on lead in fuel, ending of the crack era, and ect. Gun crime and murder in general is a fucking massive pain in the ass to deal with because you do not always know why people commit crime, and most of the time it's because of the environment which surrounds them and how it teaches them to live. [QUOTE=proboardslol;46385972] Look, I don't know what the political solution to gun control is, because as I said that's for an economist to decide, but I think that "fun" isn't a good reason for guns to be around. Safety and overall wellbeing for people should be the #1 priority.[/quote] Just a recommendation, but please look up a book on criminology known as [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Guns,_Less_Crime][i]More Guns, Less Crime[/i][/url], as it'll give you a fantastic look into the Broken Window Theory and Gun Control. My personal outlook on gun control is one that I have fostered by looking at the state I currently live in, North Dakota. We have one of the highest firearm ownership rates in the country, as well as the lowest amount of crime in the country. Why is this? Is it because of firearms and such? No. It's because we have a socialized banking system known as the Bank of North Dakota, which controls the entirety of our finances and ensures that our local economy is safely carried by giving better funding to ma n' pa shops. It also gives out student loans that are paid back through taxes... In otherwords making damn sure our students don't shoot themselves in the foot when they need loans. Not to mention that are current unemployment rate is 2.5%. Yes, my state is in control of most of it's issues by simply dealing with the issues of economics which allow us to pursue options that prevent people from being drawn into crime in order to make money. People need to realize that the majority of people in our country are drawn into crime because of poor education, poor medical assistance, and poor employment options. Deal with these three, and you'll deal a large blow to crime. And finally, the most controversial statement I'll probably make on this forum: Gun control is very much class warfare, as by increasing restrictions to increase the price of firearms. Because a majority of those in poverty are minorities it can also be seen as racism. Guns are meant to maim and kill, and because of that an important saying remains true. We are not created equal, but by a gunsmiths sweat and tears, we are equal. Guns make us equal in the way of protection and unity by class. Taking that away through gun control is simply against human equality. [QUOTE=proboardslol;46385972] Either way (that's just my opinion), only one person has answered the question: [b]would you want to legalize guns in countries with low gun crime rates and no legal guns[/b][/QUOTE] Depends on the culture of the country, how the civilians would handle it, current economic situations, ect. At the moment, I would very much prefer if places like Australia would go out of their way to legalize firearms to Pre-Port Arthur standards. Illicit Gunsmiths are only becoming more talented, and they'll eventually reach a point where they'll assemble military gra- oh wait, they already are... [url=http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/06/16/australian-police-10-firearms-seized-homemade/]The Firearm Blog - 10% of all firearms seized in Australia are homemade[/url], and as time goes on, that percentage is increasing dramatically. What once could of simply been people shooting at other people with rifles and shotguns is now turning into full-out gang wars with homemade bombs and submachine guns. All of which you can find [url=http://thehomegunsmith.com/]blueprints and guides on how to build them[/url], on the internet. Please take a moment to realize what a majority of pro-gun folk fear... We are afraid of losing our hobby, but we are fucking terrified of criminal organizations becoming equipped with automatic firearms, hand grenades, and other types of military grade weapons, that they in themselves are building. In order to bring this point home... Here are some firearms seized in Australia. [url=https://homemadeguns.wordpress.com/]Images are from the Impro Gun Blog[/url]. [t]https://homemadeguns.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/palutysmg45245improguns.jpg?w=640[/t][t]https://homemadeguns.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/lutysubmachinegunsaustralia567457improguns.jpg[/t][t]https://homemadeguns.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/803689-finks-guns.jpg?w=300&h=168[/t] [t]https://homemadeguns.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/lutyausseized.jpg?w=300&h=180[/t][t]https://homemadeguns.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/310113gengunsdrugs01_18glrml-18glrmp.jpg?w=640[/t][t]https://homemadeguns.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/gun2.jpg?w=300&h=2780[/t] [t]https://homemadeguns.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/gun1.jpg?w=640[/t][t]https://homemadeguns.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/bikielightergun2.jpg?w=300&h=199[/t][t]https://homemadeguns.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/67456746678965433.jpg?w=300&h=199[/t] And now from the same blog, we have Brazil [t]https://homemadeguns.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/7657458smg.jpg?w=640[/t][t]https://homemadeguns.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/brazilsmg774587.jpg?w=640[/t][t]https://homemadeguns.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/brazilsmg7543690.jpg?w=640[/t] [t]https://homemadeguns.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/67454577766789improguns.jpg?w=640[/t][t]https://homemadeguns.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/homemadesubmachinegun5656234635678improguns.jpg?w=640[/t][t]https://homemadeguns.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/improvisedsmgbrazil528improguns.jpg?w=640[/t] [t]https://homemadeguns.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/homemadeboltactionpistol2improguns.jpg?w=640[/t][t]https://homemadeguns.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/744635778922improguns.jpg?w=300&h=225[/t][t]https://homemadeguns.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/homemadeboltactionpistolbrazil1.jpg?w=300&h=208[/t] [t]https://homemadeguns.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/machomemadecopy88456improguns.jpg?w=297&h=300[/t][t]https://homemadeguns.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/67skorpionsmg-improguns.jpg?w=300&h=225[/t][t]https://homemadeguns.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/1376432743803.jpg?w=640&h=720[/t] The one thing I do find quiet interesting about these firearms is how many variations can be found from around the world. All these firearms are made with whatever is available to the gunsmith, and whatever the gunsmith knows. Every region, town, neighborhood, gang, alliance... They all have their different firearm/ammo type. It's one of the few things that I would love to see a journalist group like VICE tackle into. Hell, if someone could contact all the police and such from around the world, and go about cataloging the different designs that are popping up from around the world, it would be nothing short of inspirational for new gunsmiths which wish to learn more about the hobby/industry. On the same note, it should be seen that we'll never stop people from building firearms like this. The problem is far to asymmetrical to deal with, and most of the gangs in the world would just contact a metal worker who is out of work, and give them a job with manufacturing weapons. It's all they'd have to do really. From there they would have a steady stream of firearms, and cash. I have found myself from time to time contemplating how much money I could make if I were to sell homemade firearms on the blackmarket in say Canada. I figure at best if I could find a good point between North Dakota and Canada, I could probably make somewhere around a few thousand dollars to trading out homemade smgs for a variety of post-Warsaw SKS's and such... Of which I could easily fence off on a place like ArmsList and my fingers would be clean pretty quickly.
[QUOTE=pentium;46387942]I'm not surprised when I imagine some guy spending 28 years in a room going over the law with a microscope in the hopes of finding a loophole and then one day bursting out of the room screaming "I GOT IT! I GOT IT! WE'RE GETTING MORE GUNS, MAN!" I mean, large portions of the US gun industry relies on loopholes to survive.[/QUOTE] A large portion of any gun industry relies on loopholes. You don't know how many loopholes exist in the bullshit we call gun control laws in Canada. It would honestly be so much easier if things were the way they were in the '80s still.
[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;46387375]Ever considered that [B]the ban on automatics[/B] is actually keeping the automatics out of the hands of criminals and there is therefore crime by automatics is negligible. Lets keep it that way.[/QUOTE] what ban is this exactly?
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;46388022]A large portion of any gun industry relies on loopholes. You don't know how many loopholes exist in the bullshit we call gun control laws in Canada. It would honestly be so much easier if things were the way they were in the '80s still.[/QUOTE] I agree, I do not know. However spending a summer around a guy who was all about rifles I learned of a few of them and holy shit are they twisting words.
[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;46387720]Alright, I guess we should legalize theft, rape and murder then, because what good is a law when criminals wont obey them anyway?[/QUOTE] I'm glad that shit is illegal where you are because from your posts and what other people have said about you I definitely do not want you ever owning a firearm.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;46388134]They wouldn't have to if governments wouldn't ban things just for looking "evil". Half the guns on ban lists aren't even available in large quantities too, which is the hilarious part. California is especially guilty of this; banning the "stryker shotgun", when no-one owns one in the first place. Or the SPAS-12. Or the sterling SMG. How many of those have you seen floating around in states that haven't banned them? They're very few and far between, simply because they aren't hugely popular in the first place.[/QUOTE] Canada banned the HK G-11 rifle because it appeared in a gun magazine in the early '90s and used caseless ammo. There were literally 1000 prototypes of this gun produced, none were legal here anyway due to being select-fire, and yet it is banned by name.
[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;46387879]No, he implied that having a law in place is pointless because someone is going to end up breaking it anyway.[/QUOTE] no that's not what I implied. I implied a restriction on a certain type of fire arm isn't really stopping people who are already doing the other things, like murdering people. Use context.
[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;46387879]No, he implied that having a law in place is pointless because someone is going to end up breaking it anyway.[/QUOTE] And you seem to be implying that you can't read considering how much of the arguments against you that you're ignoring.
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;46388230]Canada banned the HK G-11 rifle because it appeared in a gun magazine in the early '90s and used caseless ammo. There were literally 1000 prototypes of this gun produced, none were legal here anyway due to being select-fire, and yet it is banned by name.[/QUOTE] Remember when we could own full autos? And then they got banned even though they were causing literally no problems at all...
[QUOTE=ultra_bright;46388850]Remember when we could own full autos? And then they got banned even though they were causing literally no problems at all...[/QUOTE] No, because that was well before I was born. Trudeau banned them in the late '70s, and at the time the Association of Chiefs of Police actually opposed the prohibition.
[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;46387720]Alright, I guess we should legalize theft, rape and murder then, because what good is a law when criminals wont obey them anyway?[/QUOTE] Everyone knows you never go full retard.. You went full retard man, never go full retard.
You Americans are fucking insane.
[QUOTE=proboardslol;46385972][b]would you want to legalize guns in countries with low gun crime rates and no legal guns[/b][/QUOTE] Yes. Low gun crime rate implies that there are criminals with illegal firearms using them against innocents. It's not fair to human life to allow them to have an upper hand in this. The playing field should be leveled. [editline]1st November 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=KillerLUA;46387544]Have any school shootings actually used automatics? The gun pro radicals on this forum seem to know every detail of every shooting.[/QUOTE] The answer is no. At no point in the history of the United States has an automatic weapon been used to massacre children in their school. Unless you count the time the US government surrounded the Branch Davidians, burnt down their compound, and shot those fleeing the place.
[QUOTE=Best4bond;46389289]You Americans are fucking insane.[/QUOTE] Don't worry, they think you're just as insane. I mean, really, what's that stuff you Aussies eat, Marmite? You'd have to have a screw loose to like that.
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;46389369]Don't worry, they think you're just as insane. I mean, really, what's that stuff you Aussies eat, Marmite? You'd have to have a screw loose to like that.[/QUOTE] I think he's a moron, and it's Vegemite and I find it revolting. I was born in the wrong country. Save me from this Hell.
I hate the idea of legalizing automatics, they're just too dangerous but... easily made safe, even when they are fully automatic. and by all that I mean, legalize it where it works.
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;46388878]No, because that was well before I was born. Trudeau banned them in the late '70s, and at the time the Association of Chiefs of Police actually opposed the prohibition.[/QUOTE] That's why I plan to vote the other way in 2015.
Will this also allow open bolts? I'll be finishing my MG-42 if so.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;46389843]Will this also allow open bolts? I'll be finishing my MG-42 if so.[/QUOTE] This is for the construction/registration of machine guns, that means any and all full auto or burst fire weapons (and sometimes the parts needed to convert weapons to fire burst/full auto). So closed or open bolt shouldn't matter. Although checking up on state laws will be important, I'm sure that if this goes through plenty of states will rush to the panic bans again. And of course you'd still need to go through the whole NFA process.
[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;46383974]I dont think letting people run around with automatics is a good idea, that could make school-shootings even bloodier. we could go from 10 victims to 50 easily.[/QUOTE] This isn't going to have that effect and you're naive if you think it will. The steps involved in creating and registering a trust then applying to the ATF for the proper forms and paying the tax stamp is a long and convoluted process. Someone who wants to suicide by cop or shoot up a school/mall isn't going to do any of that. They're gonna go to walmart, buy a shotgun or a pistol or a rifle (or steal them) in like 1 hour
[QUOTE=darunner;46389314]Yes. Low gun crime rate implies that there are criminals with illegal firearms using them against innocents. It's not fair to human life to allow them to have an upper hand in this. The playing field should be leveled.[/QUOTE] I think it would be a horrendous idea, and that line of thinking only promotes escalation of violence. The only certain consequence of such a law is that it would put more guns in circulation, and some of those guns would inevitably also end up in the hands of criminals. The only reason a ban in the US would never work is because of the enormous amount of weapons [i]already[/i] in circulation, that can't be removed. Can't buy a gun legally? Doesn't matter, there are literally millions of them lying around already, you can get your hands on one. An overall low supply of guns in a country means that they're harder to get for everybody, even if criminals can still get their hands on them, and I think it should remain that way. Less guns in circulation means less death by guns.
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