• [UK] Jeremy Corbyn pledges to introduce opt-out organ donor register
    47 replies, posted
I'm all for this, should've been introduced years ago.
[QUOTE=FZE;52729821]Wow y'all are owning the shit out of this guy who has specifically cited concerns of bureaucratic ineptitude voiding his opting out of the program. If you don't trust the government to respect your wishes maybe you should fill out the government form where you state your wishes???? [I][U]r e k t[/U][/I][/QUOTE] You're right. His dead body might accidentally end up saving lives. A tragedy.
[QUOTE=FZE;52729821]Wow y'all are owning the shit out of this guy who has specifically cited concerns of bureaucratic ineptitude voiding his opting out of the program. If you don't trust the government to respect your wishes maybe you should fill out the government form where you state your wishes???? [I][U]r e k t[/U][/I][/QUOTE] Okay cool you cut off the rest of my post where I addressed some more of what he said. How would this be any different than what donors opting in under the current system?- Even if the donor register was hilariously mismanaged and incompetent (and I have no reason to believe it is) wouldn't that just mean the risks his of paperwork not going through or his decision otherwise not being logged currently apply to people who do want to donate their organs? So we are still back to: Increased risk of life-saving transplants going to waste against the wishes of a dead person vs increased risk of accidentally saving someone's life against the wishes of a dead person. [editline]1st October 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Chris Morris;52729890]I'm going to opt out because of my beliefs. I expect I'll get treated like Satan Junior for this, but honestly my organs aren't any good anyway with the amount I drink.[/QUOTE] Can I ask what beliefs you hold that specifically make you not want to donate your organs?. I'm not having a dig at you, I just find the concept really hard to understand. Whatever you end up doing with your body those organs wont be around for very long- Whether they are transplanted into someone else, cremated, or left to decompose with the rest of a person's remains you can't exactly keep them or 'take them with you' so to speak. You never remain intact after dying, being buried with all your bits just means you get more decomposing sludge in the bottom of your coffin. It's really not worth getting hung up on what happens to your body after you die because, for starters, you will be dead- and secondly it's basically guarantied to be something macabre and unpleasant with not really any way to avoid that.
[QUOTE=fulgrim;52735231]Okay cool you cut off the rest of my post where I addressed some more of what he said. How would this be any different than what donors opting in under the current system?- Even if the donor register was hilariously mismanaged and incompetent (and I have no reason to believe it is) wouldn't that just mean the risks his of paperwork not going through or his decision otherwise not being logged currently apply to people who do want to donate their organs? So we are still back to: Increased risk of life-saving transplants going to waste against the wishes of a dead person vs increased risk of accidentally saving someone's life against the wishes of a dead person. [/QUOTE] Main difference is that donating your organs is a positive action
[QUOTE=Toybasher;52729657]What if my organs are taken against my will due to a "mistake" with the database? Granted I'm dead but I do not like the idea of the government owning my body or parts thereof.[/quote] Why though? You're dead, and unless you planned to do something somehow more useful with your corpse I don't see why the government using it to save other people's lives should bother you?
[QUOTE=plunger435;52734795]You're right. His dead body might accidentally end up saving lives. A tragedy.[/QUOTE] fuckkkk pointing out that someone would have to completely misapprehend the argument to think that their refutation was relevant is no match for emotional rhetoric, what was I thinking? [QUOTE=fulgrim;52735231]Okay cool you cut off the rest of my post where I addressed some more of what he said. How would this be any different than what donors opting in under the current system?- Even if the donor register was hilariously mismanaged and incompetent (and I have no reason to believe it is) wouldn't that just mean the risks his of paperwork not going through or his decision otherwise not being logged currently apply to people who do want to donate their organs? So we are still back to: Increased risk of life-saving transplants going to waste against the wishes of a dead person vs increased risk of accidentally saving someone's life against the wishes of a dead person. [/QUOTE] These are not germane points - I don't care what happens to the organs, I'm saying that the thing you posted entirely disregards central concepts of the post it was supposed to address.
[QUOTE=Toybasher;52729657]Just encourage and compensate donation and organ stock will rise. People will be signing up if there were more benefits to it.[/QUOTE] Also, that doesn't work. Some countries have tried giving monetary rewards to people for giving their blood, and donations actually plummeted. Donations don't work like your regular supply & demand market.
[QUOTE=_Axel;52735596]Also, that doesn't work. Some countries have tried giving monetary rewards to people for giving their blood, and donations actually plummeted. Donations don't work like your regular supply & demand market.[/QUOTE] There's also the possibility that people start donating more than there is demand for, particularly blood as you can lose some of that safely. Leading to us storing organs, blood and other tissue that will never be used before it deteriorates. Organs are a very "here and now" thing.
[QUOTE=_Axel;52735437]Why though? You're dead, and unless you planned to do something somehow more useful with your corpse I don't see why the government using it to save other people's lives should bother you?[/QUOTE] While I don't think a hypothetical bureaucratic mistake should negate the purpose of the register, your blatant lack of respect for the dead is fucking insulting. If someone's corpse is finagled in a way contrary to their living wishes, then it's abhorrent. [editline]1st October 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=fulgrim;52735231] Can I ask what beliefs you hold that specifically make you not want to donate your organs?. I'm not having a dig at you, I just find the concept really hard to understand. Whatever you end up doing with your body those organs wont be around for very long- Whether they are transplanted into someone else, cremated, or left to decompose with the rest of a person's remains you can't exactly keep them or 'take them with you' so to speak. You never remain intact after dying, being buried with all your bits just means you get more decomposing sludge in the bottom of your coffin. It's really not worth getting hung up on what happens to your body after you die because, for starters, you will be dead- and secondly it's basically guarantied to be something macabre and unpleasant with not really any way to avoid that.[/QUOTE] I'm going to be called monster but it's an issue I've had all my life. I hate the idea of people being too close to my body, living or dead, because of abuses in my youth that have resulted in me having self-image issues for years. I've already got it stipulated to my family that I am not to be fucked around with after I'm dead, and am just to be stuck in a hole or an oven (last resort, really. I don't want to be cremated because of the environmental damage cremation causes). It's related to my terror of a lack of self-control, and the idea of my ultimate agency being gone and someone doing things with my image -- my carcass -- at a point where I can't do anything to resist it or even be aware of it terrifies me. It's why my serious suicide attempts involved me attempting to bury myself at sea. It's an issue I'm still talking out with my therapist but my view on it has been pretty unchanging. Suffice to say I intend to be buried in an entirely natural way without being embalmed or autopsied or even placed in a coffin. In general I find the process of preparing the body for burial to be abhorrent, but hey, if you want to do that to yourself after you're dead then so be it. I want to be one with the Earth when I'm gone. While I believe in the good of the many over the few, I have no doubts that my body will be of no use to anyone upon the time I die anyway. I already have several hereditary organ-related illnesses, have engaged in activities that prevent me from giving blood (including being a bummer and a beef-eater during the mad cow crisis that excludes me from giving blood abroad) and sperm for the next decade or so, and I'm an intermittent alcoholic as well as being on several medications. Any chance of me donating organs was out of the window by the time I was 13 or thereabouts, when my ailments came to light. So I guess whether or not I opt out barely matters, but yeah. In general I'm a big pussy.
when i die i want my good organs sold to the highest bidder and my bad ones placed on stakes in my yard so crows can fight over them
[QUOTE=Chris Morris;52736441]Big post[/QUOTE] I don't think anyone is going to call you a monster dude, Thanks for taking the time to explain your point of view. I'l admit the concept of worrying about my body after death is still very alien to me, but I think I have better understanding than I did previously, and even faintly remember feeling a similar discomfort at the thought of my body being examined when discussing organ donation/donation to medical science with my grandfather as a child.
Ultimately I think it's best kept as a decision rather than a mandatory scheme, if only because the UK government's enough of a nanny state as it is and if there's one thing I want to have control over it's what happens to my organs.
[QUOTE=RearAdmiral;52736673]Ultimately I think it's best kept as a decision rather than a mandatory scheme, if only because the UK government's enough of a nanny state as it is and if there's one thing I want to have control over it's what happens to my organs.[/QUOTE] Of all things you could ask for control over, it's what happens to your organs after you die, when you no longer need them.* I'd ask for my wishes to be respected regarding something like Brexit or properly funding the NHS or something, or even the right to assisted suicide, those are things that matter while you're alive. * Given the long post on the last page regarding someone's deep personal justification for why they wish to die and be laid to rest with their body intact, I am not trying to say that there is [I]no reason[/I] to have a problem with the notion of your organs being harvested after death. But unless you have a strong opinion, for whatever reason, like the poster last page, putting it at the top of priority seems perhaps a bit off the mark to me. To be clear, I'm referring to [I]after[/I] you die of unrelated causes. I'd be fully opposed to any dystopian hellhole of a future where every doctor turned around and revealed themselves to be Dr. Kevorkian Jr., but I have a hard time believing that making organ donation opt-in is a slippery slope leading inevitably to an organ murder market straight out of bad 90s scifi TV movies.
[QUOTE=RearAdmiral;52736673]Ultimately I think it's best kept as a decision rather than a mandatory scheme, if only because the UK government's enough of a nanny state as it is and if there's one thing I want to have control over it's what happens to my organs.[/QUOTE] You still do have control over it though? You can simply opt out. I forgot to register until I saw this thread so I just did. If my body can be useful to someone when I'm dead then hey why not?
I think you're both misunderstanding RearAdmiral, they're saying that there's precedent for the UK's government to ignore the wishes of the people regardless of the legal system.
[QUOTE=Chris Morris;52736441]While I don't think a hypothetical bureaucratic mistake should negate the purpose of the register, your blatant lack of respect for the dead is fucking insulting. If someone's corpse is finagled in a way contrary to their living wishes, then it's abhorrent.[/QUOTE] I'm not disrespectful towards the dead, I simply care more about the living. I also never advocated for disrespecting living wishes, I simply don't understand why one would prefer their organs to rot six feet underground than have them actually serve a purpose. I respect people's decisions even if I don't agree with them.
[QUOTE=Chris Morris;52737345]I think you're both misunderstanding RearAdmiral, they're saying that there's precedent for the UK's government to ignore the wishes of the people regardless of the legal system.[/QUOTE] If that's the case, then it's a moot point. If someone is distrustful of the government's willingness to respect them being opt-out, and so harvests their organs anyways; then why would they trust the government's willingness to respect them [b]not[/b] being opt-[b]in[/b], and so harvests their organs anyways? If someone's opposition to something like this is based in their distrust of their wish being respected one way, then that inherently is a moot argument because that distrust just as easily swings the other way, too.
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