[QUOTE=Kyle902;43992345]how does that refute my post? If anything it reinforces it.[/QUOTE]
yeah i thought i said that they were camps they didn't want people to know about but i musta forgot to put that in my post
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43992360]yeah i thought i said that they were camps they didn't want people to know about but i musta forgot to put that in my post[/QUOTE]
wut?
How does assigning conscripts as camp guards reveal the camps?
[QUOTE=Kyle902;43992380]wut?
How does assigning conscripts as camp guards reveal the camps?[/QUOTE]
because conscripts aren't as trustworthy. but like you said, those guards were kept quite awhile away. so yeah maybe you guys are right and those dudes should be left alone, but were these guys among those dudes? or were they SS guards that were within the camps and as such, witnesses to the everyday horror of them. that's the kinda evidence that would probably come out at trial
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43992312]except alot of SS WERE draftees near the end of the war. but i'm still not sure that auchwitz and the other extermination camps were staffed by draftees since despite what others think, i don't believe many people would stand by and let those kind of atrocities occur if they knew about them[/QUOTE]
Well you can believe all you want, it doesn't change the fact that it did. Shit, you can believe that pizza is going to melt like ice cream if you want too, no matter how hard you believe, at the end of the day it isn't going to matter, pizza doesn't melt, people aren't all hindsight heroes like you.
[editline]20th February 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43992391]because conscripts aren't as trustworthy. but like you said, those guards were kept quite awhile away. so yeah maybe you guys are right and those dudes should be left alone, but were these guys among those dudes? or were they SS guards that were within the camps and as such, witnesses to the everyday horror of them. that's the kinda evidence that would probably come out at trial[/QUOTE]
Conscripts are trustworthy enough when an entire country is at war. If you're faced with your death and the death of everyone you care about for not doing something, you're going to fucking do what they tell you or you're going to die trying. It comes down to either you might die, or you and your family WILL die. One option has the chance of survival, no matter how much of a morally superior head-up-arse hero you paint your self to be, you're still human, you're still an animal, you still have an amygdala, you will still react off the basis of primal survival instinct.
End of story. We are all inherently selfish when we're in danger, you are hardwired to value your own life, unless you happen to either be a sociopath, psychopath, brain dead or just dead, you're going to fight or flight, and when you can't win the fight, you'll go to flight. What appears to be an entire army against you if you say no is not a fight your brain will take if it doesn't think it has a chance. News flash: If you're standing in the middle of Berlin being conscripted by the Nazi's, your brain already knows you aren't going to fucking make it out of that fight or flight, you'll comply.
This can also play into the idea of herd mentality, etc...
I don't see how whether they were nazis or not even matters. It's like you guys are forgetting that these people are 90 years old and basically spend most of their days drooling on a bed.
I think it's useless to arrest them but I also know that the plice/law enforcement is basically doing its job and is reuired to do so as soon as facts like the list of uards come up, not much they can do, the machine is running and grinding.
[QUOTE=wheel_user;43992447]I don't see how whether they were nazis or not even matters. It's like you guys are forgetting that these people are 90 years old and basically spend most of their days drooling on a bed.[/QUOTE]
Like I said, sick revenge fantasies. Revenge isn't justice, there is no justice to prosecuting a 90 year old man for anything he MIGHT (again, MIGHT!) have done around 70 years ago.
Statue of limitations is pretty pimping in America.
Time is not a reason to pardon a crime that happened years back. Those 3 men helped in the concentration camp and also probably killed people.
Some guys here say it is senseless to imprison them and it is some kind of revenge, but no it's not. It's justice.
No difference between someone who killed anyone before 7 days / 7 months / 7 years or even 70 years and get away with it without penalty.
Disgusting. Germany turning on its servicemen.
[QUOTE=opti2000;43992657]Time is not a reason to pardon a crime that happened years back. Those 3 men helped in the concentration camp and also probably killed people.
Some guys here say it is senseless to imprison them and it is some kind of revenge, but no it's not. It's justice.
No difference between someone who killed anyone before 7 days / 7 months / 7 years or even 70 years and get away with it without penalty.[/QUOTE]
These guys were just guards, who under current evidence, took no active part in the activities in the camp other than to just guard it.
[QUOTE=opti2000;43992657]Time is not a reason to pardon a crime that happened years back. Those 3 men helped in the concentration camp and also probably killed people.
Some guys here say it is senseless to imprison them and it is some kind of revenge, but no it's not. It's justice.
No difference between someone who killed anyone before 7 days / 7 months / 7 years or even 70 years and get away with it without penalty.[/QUOTE]
This might make sense if they had actually killed people. As of yet, and as you so helpfully pointed out, we don't know if they did yet. If your justice is "They are guilty by association, don't bother with a trial just dump them in prison" then yeah, justice has been served and 3 very dangerous old men are locked away. Congratulations, they can never do whatever old people do ever again, victory.
Or, you can not jump on this ridiculous "Justice is served, sentence them regardless of what they did because they are evil Nazis!" and wait until people actually know what they did before yelling about how justice has been served. And even then, you locked up 3 very old men who likely won't live too much longer to actually reform for their crimes if they don't already regret them. I'm sure you feel great about yourself for doing that.
[QUOTE=Tomo Takino;43992801]And even then, you locked up 3 very old men who likely won't live too much longer to actually reform for their crimes if they don't already regret them. I'm sure you feel great about yourself for doing that.[/QUOTE]
You talk like i was the one who decided this.
What i am talking about is justice and fairness. I dont care if they are old people thats unimportant. The important thing here is that the court convicted them for war crimes. (Or just helping)
Yes we dont know if they killed someone or not but honestly... It was a concentration camp and i dont think the guards back then treated the "prisoners" friendly.
[QUOTE=opti2000;43993000]You talk like i was the one who decided this.
What i am talking about is justice and fairness. I dont care if they are old people thats unimportant. The important thing here is that the court convicted them for war crimes. (Or just helping)
Yes we dont know if they killed someone or not but honestly... It was a concentration camp and i dont think the guards back then treated the "prisoners" friendly.[/QUOTE]
I don't know how you think wasting public resources to try and put three 90 year old men in prison for the rest of their lives for what they MIGHT have done 70 years ago is either just or fair. Tell me what sort of "justice" is accomplished here other than fulfilling the disgusting revenge fantasies that morons like you and the "nazi hunter" crowd have for people that weren't even capable of making a difference had they acted otherwise.
Not only this, but at the time Germany was winning the war for a good portion until the U.S. showed up, if you were told by your country, which had pretty much conquered the entirety of Europe at the time, to do something or you and your family would die, you'd probably do it because there is NOTHING You could do otherwise. ESPECIALLY when you're 16 to 20-something years old. We're not talking about the fucking officers or NCO's here, we're talking about three guys that were at most, like 23 years old at the time. They were grunts, herd mentality at its finest. They lived their entire lives with the emotional consequences of their actions.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;43992245]
But then Lachzor decided that he had to keep proclaiming moral superiority over everyone and it derailed the argument.[/QUOTE]
i miss thisispain
[QUOTE=Bazsil;43993042]i miss thisispain[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't say missed He could be nice and at least meant well when he wasn't bursting into flames. But I wouldn't say being here was good for him, he's better off without us as are we without him.
Lachz0r would be that one guy who would stand up and try to fight armed robbers at a bank heist, and immediately get his ass capped, raise tensions and probably instigate some more violence.
Dude, learn some judgement and consequences. Putting others in risk (your family in the nazi guard example) is not worth it, especially if you can't even put a dent into the system.
I mean, at least try to have your family escape or join a partisan movement, be a little smart.
This is dumb anyway. Even if they were young, it was Nazi Germany that put them there on that post.
[QUOTE=opti2000;43992657]Time is not a reason to pardon a crime that happened years back. Those 3 men helped in the concentration camp and also probably killed people.
Some guys here say it is senseless to imprison them and it is some kind of revenge, but no it's not. It's justice.
No difference between someone who killed anyone before 7 days / 7 months / 7 years or even 70 years and get away with it without penalty.[/QUOTE]
It's not justice, it's pure dumb revenge. It helps nobody to arrest some 90 year old men for things that happened 70 years ago. I also thought that after 50 years without evidence, a crime is nullified anyways. Whatever happened to that?
Good work draugur. Dont get me wrong but you sound like a nazi sympathizer. You are downplaying the things too much. So you are basicly saying that the people who served in nazi germany were the innocent?
Nonsense, they knew what they are doing in the concentration camps (killing people or helping to kill them). And you think that's excusable after some years passes by? You can think what you want but it is not revenge fulfilling fantasies nor am i a "nazi hunter" or moron as you state.
I just can say deal with this.
[QUOTE=opti2000;43993000]What i am talking about is justice and fairness. I dont care if they are old people thats unimportant. The important thing here is that the court convicted them for war crimes. (Or just helping)[/QUOTE]
Fairness? I'm sorry, what fairness is there in saying "justice is served" wthout even knowing what any of the men has done?
[QUOTE]Yes we dont know if they killed someone or not but honestly... It was a concentration camp and i dont think the guards back then treated the "prisoners" friendly.[/QUOTE]
Yes, we do not know. So what sense is there in acting as if some hardened criminal has been captured? Regardless of what they did, it would be a waste of money to imprison 3 very old men. Prison is for reforming criminals, not to say "we caught these people who did things ages ago, go us."
Everyone should watch the Deep Space 9 episode "Duet" on netflix. Not just because it relates to the current topic, but because its a good episode.
What you guys don't get is that there is noone who decided to do this. Once the evidence is up, police has to act. It's law, the pardon can only be spoken by a judge and until then they are required to sit in jail.
It's ironic.
edit:
I think the point here might be to catch War ciminals wich are hiding
Wow, they're really Reich-ing for this one. I could understand if they personally killed and tortured millions, but that is Nazi case here. Heil bet that they didn't want to be there themselves.
...I'll show myself out.
:suicide:
[QUOTE=opti2000;43993185]Good work draugur. Dont get me wrong but you sound like a nazi sympathizer. You are downplaying the things too much. So you are basicly saying that the people who served in nazi germany were the innocent?
Nonsense, they knew what they are doing in the concentration camps (killing people or helping to kill them). And you think that's excusable after some years passes by? You can think what you want but it is not revenge fulfilling fantasies nor am i a "nazi hunter" or moron as you state.
I just can say deal with this.[/QUOTE]
People think far too much in terms of black and white right and wrong. There's always the bad guys and the good guys, but there's never the people in the middle, nor is there ever a mention of "mostly right" or "mostly evil". In fact, a lot of times there's gray area - sometimes there is no clear right or wrong, but a best and worst decision. Sometimes there isn't even that.
Sure, being a Nazi guard is definitely not a good thing, but it's not like there were many other options that weren't Nazi-related in some way back in Germany. Also, going against the government really put a lot of hostility your way, if I recall from high school history. (I'll up my history game next semester as a college Sophomore.)
In a time of propaganda, patriotism, a lot of support for the Nazi regime (at when people were building up Hitler's power to win office), war, and economic tragedy, I could imagine why some people may have chosen that route. Mind you, it's not the right thing to do, but it's understandable to an extent why some people found themselves becoming guards. Bah, I don't know how to explain what I'm thinking too well, but if a community is doing something and is hostile to people who aren't willing to participate, there's probably going to be people that will go along with it. The entire situation is immoral, but there aren't a lot of choices for just a simple nobody.
I feel like a lot of people think the acts performed during the holocaust are simply unthinkable and inhuman, when it's just the opposite. It's an extreme manipulation of human populations, and there's steps to be taken to reach to that point. These people that performed these terrible acts are still human beings, despite being made out to be horrendous monsters. It's important to think about how they got to the position they were in, and in the case of these three suspects, there are many understandable possibilities as to why they ended up being guards, and it's very possible that they weren't abusive.
That's why I said in my previous post that I'm not sure what I would have done in a scenario like that. Assuming that I didn't have the knowledge I have now about the war and everything that happened back then, I'm not sure what actions I would have taken, because I could have easily been manipulated into helping out Germany out of fear of being looked at as an enemy and being dealt with accordingly, or even from a financial standpoint. (There wasn't a lot of money going around at the time - they were still dealing with money problems and the big money maker was everything war - just like in America!)
Oh, and I might be way off with this post with inaccuracies and indecisive fluff, so feel free to poke holes in this post and correct me - I'm very interested in this topic/thread.
[QUOTE=opti2000;43993185]Good work draugur. Dont get me wrong but you sound like a nazi sympathizer. You are downplaying the things too much. So you are basicly saying that the people who served in nazi germany were the innocent?
Nonsense, they knew what they are doing in the concentration camps (killing people or helping to kill them). And you think that's excusable after some years passes by? You can think what you want but it is not revenge fulfilling fantasies nor am i a "nazi hunter" or moron as you state.
I just can say deal with this.[/QUOTE]
Typical. If they don't agree with you, call them Nazis.
germany should send a bit of their shame to japan, they could certainly use some.
[QUOTE=opti2000;43993185]Good work draugur. Dont get me wrong but you sound like a nazi sympathizer. You are downplaying the things too much. So you are basicly saying that the people who served in nazi germany were the innocent?
Nonsense, they knew what they are doing in the concentration camps (killing people or helping to kill them). And you think that's excusable after some years passes by? You can think what you want but it is not revenge fulfilling fantasies nor am i a "nazi hunter" or moron as you state.
I just can say deal with this.[/QUOTE]
"Guten tag, I am Hans and I've been conscripted by the Wermacht to serve in the army, namely, this weird camp."
"Oh god it's a concentration camp, Scheiße! This is fucking horrible, why do I have to do this?"
"That's it, I'm fed up, I'm leaving this piece of shit army [B]OH NO I CAN'T BECAUSE I WILL BE SHOT ON THE SPOT AND MY FAMILY WILL BE ENDANGERED WELP FUCK IT SEEMS I'LL JUST HAVE TO LIVE WITH THIS[/B]"
Seriously, what do you expect them to do? A person's own life and family will always be more important to them than the other's, that's nature.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;43993685]germany should send a bit of their shame to japan, they could certainly use some.[/QUOTE]
It is kinda funny how Japan has completely taken a different approach to observing the past unlike the Germans.
Rape of Nanking
Bataan Death March
Korean Comfort Women
Etc....
Nah, let's just remember Hiroshima and only that.
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