Obamacare to cut work hours by equivalent of 2 million jobs
105 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Reds;43794091]This is what happens when the bill is absolutely bastardised to have a chance of making it past the Republicans.[/QUOTE]
Aye, but it was played as bi-partisan from the get-go and it suffered. there's no denying this. But from the start this was only intended to be moderate reform that dealt with the existing private healthcare system. This is what we got, and this is the primary problem.
"Um, guys, employers are going to start cutting people's hours or firing them if we pass this...."
"LOLSHUTUPRIGHTWINGNUTJOB! YOU JUST DON'T LIKE THIS LEGISLATION BECAUSE OBAMA IS BLACK!"
I remember the arguments like it was yesterday.......
lol this shit is just going to keep getting worse and worse untill this country is sucked dry.
[QUOTE=CanadianBill;43789179]Yup, my workplace is doing this. It's even dumber because we're seasonal.
Can't work more than 25 hours or something like that[/QUOTE]
I was telling people this was going to happen when Obongocare was being voted on in Congress. I said businesses small and large were going to cut hours below 30 to avoid having to pay employee health benefits and hurt already low wage workers.
What was the response? "You're an idiot! That won't happen! It's unethical!"
Except it is happening because employers don't want to eat thousands of dollars more a year to have a full time employee with benefits. It's cheaper to have lots of part time staff on the book than it is to have fewer full time employees.
Stay classy Obama, keep pissing on everyone without the courtesy of calling it rain.
[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;43794720]Obongocare[/QUOTE]
I can't believe conservatives are actually starting to use a term that was made to take the piss at conservatives and portray them as ignorant racists.
The ironing is delicious.
[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;43794720]I was telling people this was going to happen when Obongocare was being voted on in Congress. I said businesses small and large were going to cut hours below 30 to avoid having to pay employee health benefits and hurt already low wage workers.
What was the response? "You're an idiot! That won't happen! It's unethical!"
Except it is happening because employers don't want to eat thousands of dollars more a year to have a full time employee with benefits. It's cheaper to have lots of part time staff on the book than it is to have fewer full time employees.
Stay classy Obama, keep pissing on everyone without the courtesy of calling it rain.[/QUOTE]
Yeah it's all Obama's fault, none of the fault is shared by the companies cutting jobs because they're too greed driven to pay for any benefits.
And they are too greed driven, which is [B]exactly why we need to establish national healthcare.[/B]
[editline]5th February 2014[/editline]
I'm actually hoping they introduce a public option later on that [I]doesn't [/I]fuck over the consumer. By then, the many that either pay their own, or have none, will be able to get government healthcare. Then maybe word will spread about the greatness of it, and the healthcare industry would be forced to keep up or die once and for all.
[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;43794720]
Stay classy Obama, keep pissing on everyone without the courtesy of calling it rain.[/QUOTE]
Not everyone. I only have health coverage because of some of the ACA provisions.
Thanks Obama :smile:
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;43794766]I can't believe conservatives are actually starting to use a term that was made to take the piss at conservatives and portray them as ignorant racists.
The ironing is delicious.[/QUOTE]
I've never seen that term anywhere but on FP.
[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;43794720]I was telling people this was going to happen when Obongocare was being voted on in Congress. I said businesses small and large were going to cut hours below 30 to avoid having to pay employee health benefits and hurt already low wage workers.
What was the response? "You're an idiot! That won't happen! It's unethical!"
Except it is happening because employers don't want to eat thousands of dollars more a year to have a full time employee with benefits. It's cheaper to have lots of part time staff on the book than it is to have fewer full time employees.
Stay classy Obama, keep pissing on everyone without the courtesy of calling it rain.[/QUOTE]
I don't think that's obama's fault. Seems more like it's the [B]employers[/B] fault.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;43794968]Yeah it's all Obama's fault, none of the fault is shared by the companies cutting jobs because they're too greed driven to pay for any benefits.[/QUOTE]
While big corporations may be able to take the hit, there are millions of medium and small businesses that can't. To them it isn't about greed, it's about not going bankrupt. The primary purpose of a business is to make money, and when your existence depends on the profit from your business, you're going to do whatever is necessary to keep it profitable.
Until you actually run a business, it's ignorant to call them all evil money grubbing fatcats.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;43794968]And they are too greed driven, which is [B]exactly why we need to establish national healthcare.[/QUOTE]
NHC is like Communism, great idea on paper, terrible idea in actuality.
The first problem is that the quality of care goes WAY down as you go up the spectrum of severity of health issues. While the people that have problems that fall on the minor end of the spectrum of health problems may benefit, people on the major end of the spectrum suffer.
The second problem is that in a socialized health system, medical advancements in types and methods of treatment and in medicine are nearly ground to a halt. Both doctors and companies have much less incentive to work on any advancement in medicine because there is no reward for doing so. While you and millions like you view hospitals and pharmaceutical companies as immoral scumbags for charging disproportionate amounts of money for their treatments and drugs, you have to realize that they're a business just like a restaurant or shipping company are a business and exist to make money.
The medical industry doesn't invest hundreds of billions of dollars in things like cancer research "for the greater good", they do it for money. You take their reward away and it will crumble into nothing.
[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;43795637]NHC is like Communism, great idea on paper, terrible idea in actuality.
The first problem is that the quality of care goes WAY down as you go up the spectrum of severity of health issues. While the people that have problems that fall on the minor end of the spectrum of health problems may benefit, people on the major end of the spectrum suffer.
The second problem is that in a socialized health system, medical advancements in types and methods of treatment and in medicine are nearly ground to a halt. Both doctors and companies have much less incentive to work on any advancement in medicine because there is no reward for doing so. While you and millions like you view hospitals and pharmaceutical companies as immoral scumbags for charging disproportionate amounts of money for their treatments and drugs, you have to realize that they're a business just like a restaurant or shipping company are a business and exist to make money.
The medical industry doesn't invest hundreds of billions of dollars in things like cancer research "for the greater good", they do it for money. You take their reward away and it will crumble into nothing.[/QUOTE]How capacious is your arse that you can pull that much shit from it?
[editline]5th February 2014[/editline]
"The second problem is that in a socialized health system, medical advancements in types and methods of treatment and in medicine are nearly ground to a halt."
That'll be why there's no large pharmaceutical companies in Europe then.
[url=http://www.merck.de/de/index.html]Oh[/url] [url=http://www.novartis.com/]wait,[/url] [url=http://www.bayer.com/]that's[/url] [url=http://www.gsk.com/]not[/url] [url=http://www.sanofi.com/]really[/url] [url=http://www.roche.com/index.htm]true,[/url] [url=http://www.astrazeneca.com/Home]is[/url] [url=http://www.boehringer-ingelheim.com/]it?[/url]
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;43795647]How capacious is your arse that you can pull that much shit from it?
[editline]5th February 2014[/editline]
"The second problem is that in a socialized health system, medical advancements in types and methods of treatment and in medicine are nearly ground to a halt."
That'll be why there's no large pharmaceutical companies in Europe then.
[URL="http://www.merck.de/de/index.html"]Oh[/URL] [URL="http://www.novartis.com/"]wait,[/URL] [URL="http://www.bayer.com/"]that's[/URL] [URL="http://www.gsk.com/"]not[/URL] [URL="http://www.sanofi.com/"]really[/URL] [URL="http://www.roche.com/index.htm"]true,[/URL] [URL="http://www.astrazeneca.com/Home"]is[/URL] [URL="http://www.boehringer-ingelheim.com/"]it?[/URL][/QUOTE]
slam dunked
I'm lucky to be getting around 30 hours right now, was getting about 40 on part-time. They're trying to down everyone's average to 24 though which is great.
[QUOTE=Reds;43794091]This is what happens when the bill is absolutely bastardised to have a chance of making it past the Republicans.[/QUOTE]
Not one republican voted for obamacare. Not a single one.
The bill that passed was exactly what the liberals in charge wanted it to be.
They had the votes to pass litterally anything- and passed this. Stop blaming republicans for the failures of democrats.
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;43795647]How capacious is your arse that you can pull that much shit from it?
[editline]5th February 2014[/editline]
"The second problem is that in a socialized health system, medical advancements in types and methods of treatment and in medicine are nearly ground to a halt."
That'll be why there's no large pharmaceutical companies in Europe then.
[url=http://www.merck.de/de/index.html]Oh[/url] [url=http://www.novartis.com/]wait,[/url] [url=http://www.bayer.com/]that's[/url] [url=http://www.gsk.com/]not[/url] [url=http://www.sanofi.com/]really[/url] [url=http://www.roche.com/index.htm]true,[/url] [url=http://www.astrazeneca.com/Home]is[/url] [url=http://www.boehringer-ingelheim.com/]it?[/url][/QUOTE]
Good job, you picked a bunch of companies that have not only offices and research centers based in the United States, but are also partnered with U.S. Pharmaceutical companies.
You really showed me there.
[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;43796397]Good job, you picked a bunch of companies that have not only offices and research centers based in the United States, but are also partnered with U.S. Pharmaceutical companies.
You really showed me there.[/QUOTE]
Are you trying to argue that European Pharmaceutical Companies only make profit from the US Market?
[editline]5th February 2014[/editline]
The US Market that is literally built on insurance companies and personal bankruptcies.
[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;43796397]Good job, you picked a bunch of companies that have not only offices and research centers based in the United States, but are also partnered with U.S. Pharmaceutical companies.
You really showed me there.[/QUOTE]It's indisputable fact all the companies I listed are headquartered in Europe and have significant holdings in Europe, especially manufacturing and research. The same is also true of US pharmaceutical companies. Globalisation, boy; it's a wonderful thing.
I know it might offend your sensibilities that dirty socialists like us actually live very good lives and on the whole have good economies, but you'll have to get used to reality some day.
[editline]5th February 2014[/editline]
Alternatively, you [I]could[/I] try and prove me wrong, cite actual sources to back up the claims you repeat ad nauseam about how no medical research goes on in Europe and how pharmaceutical research is purely funded by private companies (spoiler alert, it's bollocks); but with an arse that spacious and plentiful, why bother?
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;43796534]It's indisputable fact all the companies I listed have significant holdings in Europe, especially manufacturing and research. The same is also true of US pharmaceutical companies. Globalisation, boy; it's a wonderful thing.
I know it might offend your sensibilities that dirty socialists like us actually live very good lives and on the whole have good economies, but you'll have to get used to reality some day.[/QUOTE]
I don't mean to but in but I think it's counter productive to say that those companies are based in Europe then go on to say that their market is worldwide. I mean, whats it matter where they're based? Their primary market *could be* the US.
[QUOTE=Agoat;43796609]I don't mean to but in but I think it's counter productive to say that those companies are based in Europe then go on to say that their market is worldwide. I mean, whats it matter where they're based? Their primary market *could be* the US.[/QUOTE]The point is specifically that the US is not the [I]only[/I] place that medical and pharmaceutical research goes on (nor does it hold some imaginary significant majority of it), as he claimed. I am not aiming to attempt to claim that Europe has indisputable market supremacy; just that the wealthiest region in the entire world, with a combined population of over 700 million does not collectively just sit on it's arse and suckle America's research teat because ~free market capitalism~
[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;43795637]While big corporations may be able to take the hit, there are millions of medium and small businesses that can't. To them it isn't about greed, it's about not going bankrupt. The primary purpose of a business is to make money, and when your existence depends on the profit from your business, you're going to do whatever is necessary to keep it profitable.
Until you actually run a business, it's ignorant to call them all evil money grubbing fatcats.
NHC is like Communism, great idea on paper, terrible idea in actuality.
The first problem is that the quality of care goes WAY down as you go up the spectrum of severity of health issues. While the people that have problems that fall on the minor end of the spectrum of health problems may benefit, people on the major end of the spectrum suffer.
The second problem is that in a socialized health system, medical advancements in types and methods of treatment and in medicine are nearly ground to a halt. Both doctors and companies have much less incentive to work on any advancement in medicine because there is no reward for doing so. While you and millions like you view hospitals and pharmaceutical companies as immoral scumbags for charging disproportionate amounts of money for their treatments and drugs, you have to realize that they're a business just like a restaurant or shipping company are a business and exist to make money.
The medical industry doesn't invest hundreds of billions of dollars in things like cancer research "for the greater good", they do it for money. You take their reward away and it will crumble into nothing.[/QUOTE]
Spoken like someone who has not a clue what he's talking about.
As a Canadian citizen, and furthermore one with a family member whose life was saved by our socialized healthcare (Little brother needed open brain surgery, received it, made a full recovery - We only had to pay the ambulance fee) I'm here to tell you you're full of shit.
[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;43795637]While you and millions like you view hospitals and pharmaceutical companies as immoral scumbags for charging disproportionate amounts of money for their treatments and drugs, you have to realize that they're a business just like a restaurant or shipping company are a business and exist to make money.[/QUOTE]
are you familiar with the concept of elasticity
[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;43795637]
NHC is like Communism, great idea on paper, terrible idea in actuality.
The first problem is that the quality of care goes WAY down as you go up the spectrum of severity of health issues. While the people that have problems that fall on the minor end of the spectrum of health problems may benefit, people on the major end of the spectrum suffer.
The second problem is that in a socialized health system, medical advancements in types and methods of treatment and in medicine are nearly ground to a halt. Both doctors and companies have much less incentive to work on any advancement in medicine because there is no reward for doing so. While you and millions like you view hospitals and pharmaceutical companies as immoral scumbags for charging disproportionate amounts of money for their treatments and drugs, you have to realize that they're a business just like a restaurant or shipping company are a business and exist to make money.
The medical industry doesn't invest hundreds of billions of dollars in things like cancer research "for the greater good", they do it for money. You take their reward away and it will crumble into nothing.[/QUOTE]
It must be terrible, look at all those commie countries with universal healthcare. The rest of the world must be wrong and the USA, Africa and North Korea must be right.
[IMG]http://www.blogcdn.com/www.gadling.com/media/2007/07/healthcareworldbig.jpg[/IMG]
I'm not supposed to get over 40 hours at my job, but I usually end up getting it anyway since I'm the only one there that doesn't call off.
[QUOTE=Ripmax;43796750]It must be terrible, look at all those commie countries with universal healthcare. The rest of the world must be wrong and the USA, Africa and North Korea must be right.
[IMG]http://www.blogcdn.com/www.gadling.com/media/2007/07/healthcareworldbig.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
It's pretty damn obvious that socialized healthcare isn't gonna happen with the right wing being sponsored heavily by private companies whose making ridiculous amounts of money of the well being of others.
Somehow, being in a healthy shape is a profit maximized business with absolutely no concern for the individual as a person, but rather as someone to rip off at every given opportunity.
[I]"land of the free"[/I] my hairy ass.
[QUOTE=GiGaBiTe;43795637]
NHC is like Communism, great idea on paper, terrible idea in actuality.
The first problem is that the quality of care goes WAY down as you go up the spectrum of severity of health issues. While the people that have problems that fall on the minor end of the spectrum of health problems may benefit, people on the major end of the spectrum suffer.
[B]The second problem is that in a socialized health system, medical advancements in types and methods of treatment and in medicine are nearly ground to a halt.[/B] Both doctors and companies have much less incentive to work on any advancement in medicine because there is no reward for doing so. While you and millions like you view hospitals and pharmaceutical companies as immoral scumbags for charging disproportionate amounts of money for their treatments and drugs, you have to realize that they're a business just like a restaurant or shipping company are a business and exist to make money.
[B]The medical industry doesn't invest hundreds of billions of dollars in things like cancer research "for the greater good", they do it for money. You take their reward away and it will crumble into nothing.[/B][/QUOTE]
Biochemist specializing in drug development and discovery here.
might want to actually know what you're talking about before you go around talking shit.
[URL="http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single-payer-faq#research"]http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single-payer-faq#research[/URL]
[QUOTE]Medical research does not disappear under universal health care system. Many famous discoveries have been made in countries with national health care systems. Laparoscopic gallbladder removal was pioneered in Canada. The CT scan was invented in England. The treatment for juvenile diabetes by transplanting pancreatic cells was developed in Canada.
I[B]t is also important to note that studies show that, in the U.S., the number of clinical research grants declines in areas of high HMO penetration. This suggests that managed care increasingly threatens clinical research. Another study surveyed medical school faculty and found that it was more difficult to do research in areas where high HMO penetration has enforced a more business-oriented approach to health care.[/B]
[B]Finally, it appears that the increasing commercialization of research is beginning to slow innovation. [/B]Drug firms’ increasing reliance on contract research organizations (and for-profit ethical-review boards) has coincided with a sharp drop in innovative new drugs and a spate of “me-too” drugs - minor variations on old drugs that offer little benefit other than extended patent life.[/QUOTE]
So, the private sector is actually making it harder to do medical research, not easier, and the research that is being done by the private sector isn't as useful and isn't as expensive or extensive as the research being done by the public sector.
Here are some of the articles they're referencing:
[url]http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/15/3/72.full.pdf[/url]
[URL="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&ved=0CGsQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F13907166_The_new_medical_marketplace_physicians%27_views%2Ffile%2F9fcfd50ef0033c17cc.pdf&ei=bUryUp6hDqaSyAH-n4CgCQ&usg=AFQjCNH0nGjee_tReHyZpf_Kn9Np5rWXcg&sig2=rWHXSLMsetwZpnNRCZIbbQ&bvm=bv.60799247,d.aWc"]Survey of Healthcare Providers[/URL]
I suggest reading PNHP's FAQ before further discussion. Pretty much every common point has been addressed.
The issue here isn't free market capitalism versus socialism, the current US system is some crony BS capitalism with government and corporations in bed.
I'm curious how an actual capitalist system would fare with healthcare.
I'm not familiar with the law all that much, but from reading the thread I'm gathering that people who work underemployed will get insurance through the state. And those working full time will get insurance through their employer, by law.
So why would people purposely underwork to stay on the state insurance when they would, by law, just get insurance through their job if they work more?
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43797624]I'm not familiar with the law all that much, but from reading the thread I'm gathering that people who work underemployed will get insurance through the state. And those working full time will get insurance through their employer, by law.
So why would people purposely underwork to stay on the state insurance when they would, by law, just get insurance through their job if they work more?[/QUOTE]
Thats the thing though, in no way at all unless you fit in a certain category will you get "free" healthcare. Instead you'll get a subsidy of sorts to assist in paying for it. Those who make a certain amount don't get subsidies, and then pay out the ass for insurance that 9 times out of 10 covers less than their original plan, restricts which doctors they can go to, has ridiculous co-pays, and insane premiums.
[editline]5th February 2014[/editline]
All this bill has done so far, regardless of whos fault it is, who did what, whatever, is increase the costs for healthcare for everyone by not only mandating that we buy health insurance, but inadvertently raising the cost of the insurance as well.
it needs a complete overhaul, because right now it is doing little to no good for the majority of americans.
[QUOTE=GunFox;43793904]
So take your snide comments and cram them up your ass. We are stuck in shitville because of stupid conservative fucks. Which is, frankly, a redundant statement.[/QUOTE]
Well that was rather rude...
I make a small comment and you decide to attack me.
Now don't get me wrong, I agree with you. Obamacare would have been a great thing if it was implemented properly. Thought that is evidently not the case.
I am just very worried since my father runs his own business and my mother works for a very small company (5 employees), things may get very hard for us.
[QUOTE=Siminov;43798246]Well that was rather rude...
I make a small comment and you decide to attack me.
Now don't get me wrong, I agree with you. Obamacare would have been a great thing if it was implemented properly. Thought that is evidently not the case.
I am just very worried since my father runs his own business and my mother works for a very small company (5 employees), things may get very hard for us.[/QUOTE]
IIRC the mandate only applies to business that have over 50 full time employees working for them?
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