Wisconsin Senate Leader Fitzgerald Removes Representation Of 2.2 Million American Votes
197 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Glaber;28641804]attempts to get Republicans to vote for it. As far as I know, not all of it was revealed in the first place. we're still learning about hidden funding for the bill that never should of been in it.
As I've no viewed the quoted video, I can no longer support either side in this issue.
Ok, you won the constitutional argument, but the argument of collective bargaining being a right won't be so easy to win.
Oh and you might want to explain this one:
Seem to me like this one gets violated plenty of times by the unions themselves. Specifically the protection of his interests part.
I may not be supporting what the democrats did, nor that law violation shown in the unedited video, but there is still one point that rubs me the wrong way. People thinking privileges are rights. Collective bargaining is not a right. It's a privilege.
[URL]http://blog.heritage.org/2011/03/01/collective-bargaining-is-not-a-right/[/URL][/QUOTE]
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Act"] National Labor Relations Act[/URL], made federal law in 1935, which among other things explains that collectively bargaining with your employer in a union is a right.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyAlt;28648007][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Act"] National Labor Relations Act[/URL], made federal law in 1935, which among other things explains that collectively bargaining with your employer in a union is a right.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, because the government likes to be held to as few of its own laws as possible, Federal and State employees are exempt from its protections.
[QUOTE=J!NX;28642292]The guy making the argument who called it illegal sounds like a very smart man. The republicans however, dumb as hell.[/QUOTE]
I like how they just end the meeting and leave when he calls them out.
They know what they did. :colbert:
[editline]17th March 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lazor;28646339]why do people act like political parties are something that's possible to eliminate in a democratic republic?
people with similar political interests are going to form groups, no amount of idealistic banter is going to stop this[/QUOTE]
I have no problem with political parties.
It's when Politicians become so dedicated to their parties, they blindly vote in favour of whatever their party wants, rather than what they want or what they think is right. US Politics is a perfect example of that.
[QUOTE=J!NX;28642292]The guy making the argument who called it illegal sounds like a very smart man. The republicans however, dumb as hell.[/QUOTE]
Considering that all the democrats were missing, I thought he was Republican too.
[QUOTE=Jiyoon;28641907]Who cares about whether or not it is A right, collective bargaining is the right thing to DO.[/QUOTE]
If you don't care if it's a right or not, how can you argue that they're taking rights away? You have to pick a side for your argument to hold water.
[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;28643369]First: A trade union can't violate the right to join a trade union and be protected by it, because you can leave that union. Obviously this isn't practical most of the time, but it's a specious argument to be making at best.
Second: Eliminating unions isn't going to make things better.
Third: The United States agreed to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that I cited in my last post, so even the US agrees that it is a right to collectively bargain.
Fourth: Collective bargaining is a right, and it's a pretty easy thing to prove:
(1) People can talk to each other, and this is a protected right.
(2) People can make decisions, and this cannot be denied.
(3) People can leave their work if they choose to, and this is protected by law in most states.
Given (1), (2), and (3), Collective bargaining is a right, as it is merely a formalization of informal organization.
How can you defend denying people the right to decide things in groups, when it is so fundamental to a democracy?[/QUOTE]
[quote=Heritage Foundation] There is a big difference between rights and privileges. Americans have the right to vote. The state, barring a felony conviction, cannot take that right away. Driving, on the other hand, is privilege. The state can refuse you the privilege of driving for a myriad of reasons including failure to pass a test showing you know the rules of the road or failing to purchase auto insurance.
Similarly the freedom of association is a right shared by all Americans and protected by the First Amendment. In contrast, [B]collective bargaining is a special power occasionally granted to some unions.[/B] [I]In upholding North Carolina’s ban on government union collective bargaining, a federal court wrote in [url=http://books.google.com/books?id=EjYuJHUUaV8C&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=atkins+vs.+city+of+charlotte&source=bl&ots=UU7UD_gRrs&sig=-FtQ2PReDrxKWtWEw2MU-NjFRK8&hl=en&ei=SzNtTYHpHMfqgQeH_dChAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q&f=false]Atkins vs. City of Charlotte[/url]: “All citizens have the right to associate in groups to advocate their special interests to the government. It is something entirely different to grant any one interest group special status and access to the decision making process.”[/I][/quote]
[url]http://blog.heritage.org/2011/03/01/collective-bargaining-is-not-a-right/[/url]
Secondly: Given 1, 2, and 3 in your post, you fail to prove that collective bargaining is a right. what you proved is the right to free speech and free association with number 1.
With number 2, you proved a part of the decision making process. the choice. Something that unions try to take away when it comes to joining them or paying them dues. Plus, choices and decisions have been denied before.
And with 3 you just proved a law that protected the worker and allows them to quit their job.
What you fail to prove is how Public Sector Unions, who's members are paid and employed by the government through their department or building (Public School for example) are given the right to bargain as a group with the State Governments. Especially when it comes to asking for more money that WILL have to come form the taxpayer as this is where the governments get their money from.
Thirdly, to your second, maybe not, but giving them so much power to affect state budgets isn't good either. We don't need more people doing what Snyder is doing because of Public Sector Unions do we?
What you must realize is the these unions are basicly Special Interest Groups. Private Sector Unions don't have the same affect on state budgets and taxes that Public Sector ones do.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyAlt;28648007][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Act"] National Labor Relations Act[/URL], made federal law in 1935, which among other things explains that collectively bargaining with your employer in a union is a right.[/QUOTE]
right from the article
[quote] * Interfering with, restraining or coercing employees in their rights under Section 7. These rights include freedom of association, mutual aid or protection, self-organization, to form, join, or assist labor organizations,[B] to bargain collectively for wages and working conditions through representatives of their own choosing[/B], [I]and to engage in other protected concerted activities with or without a union.[/I] Section 8(a)(1)[/quote]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Act#Summary[/url]
Also when signed into law, Public sector unions had yet to come into existence, but now that they do, these unions can, and do affect state budgets. Plus with collective bargaining, they can cause the state to have to make a choice about raising taxes to cover their higher wages.
Thy Reaper has also pointed out another piece to this debate in that Federal and State employees are exempt from the protections of the National Labor Relations Act.
These teachers are are state employees and therefore, are not protected.
Uhhg....shut up Glaber. Makes me want to hit my head against a wall.
We can already see this is bullshit.
[quote]What you must realize is the these unions are basicly Special Interest Groups. Private Sector Unions don't have the same affect on state budgets and taxes that Public Sector ones do.[/quote]
fuck public sector unions they are fucking trash that dont give a shit about the workers rights
[editline]17th March 2011[/editline]
but collective bargaining is a right anyways
The fascist parasites have infected Wisconsin. We must burn them to ash before they do further damage.
[QUOTE=Swilly;28648696]Uhhg....shut up Glaber. [B]Makes me want to hit my head against a wall.[/B]
We can already see this is bullshit.[/QUOTE]
Wait your turn, I'm not done. (See yawmwen post for reason)
[QUOTE=ironman17;28648742]The fascist parasites have infected Wisconsin. We must burn them to ash before they do further damage.[/QUOTE]
Apparently, [url=http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1068277]they're in Michigan too[/url].
[QUOTE=Glaber;28648745]Wait your turn, I'm not done. (See yawmwen post for reason)[/QUOTE]
Why haven't you responded to any of what Humanabyss says?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28642149][media]http://youtube.com/watch?v=a5sx-4i5y0E[/media]
Come the fuck on glaber, respond to this.[/QUOTE]
Glaber, come on.
[editline]17th March 2011[/editline]
if you can spew out a wall of text that's mostly gibberish, then you can give me a god damn honest answer as to how you can just be okay with the things they're doing when they're so wrong clearly.
[QUOTE=Glaber;28648647][URL]http://blog.heritage.org/2011/03/01/collective-bargaining-is-not-a-right/[/URL][/QUOTE]
Assertions from a blog are fun to cite repeatedly!
[QUOTE]Secondly: Given 1, 2, and 3 in your post, you fail to prove that collective bargaining is a right. what you proved is the right to free speech and free association with number 1.[/QUOTE]According to [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_bargaining"]Wikipedia[/URL] I see nothing special about collective bargaining that requires additional rights. If people can decide, as a group, to reject an employer unless demands are met, they can collectively bargain.
[QUOTE]With number 2, you proved a part of the decision making process. the choice. Something that unions try to take away when it comes to joining them or paying them dues. Plus, choices and decisions have been denied before.[/QUOTE]You do sacrifice some individual choice to improve the overall protections you receive. This is the same as participating in a democracy - you lose your individual voice in return for having the possibility of anything changing at all.
[QUOTE]And with 3 you just proved a law that protected the worker and allows them to quit their job.[/QUOTE]That was mostly to give the basis of where collective bargaining gets its power, and seeing as we have a ~10% unemployment rate, leaving a job is likely to leave you jobless for quite some time, further demonstrating the need for collective bargaining to protect workers.
[QUOTE]What you fail to prove is how Public Sector Unions, who's members are paid and employed by the government through their department or building (Public School for example) are given the right to bargain as a group with the State Governments. Especially when it comes to asking for more money that WILL have to come form the taxpayer as this is where the governments get their money from.[/QUOTE]The unions in Wisconsin agreed to receive paycuts. It seems they're not as destructive as you hope they are. In any case, this is an inherent problem with making one group special - most citizens aren't hired by the Government, and have no particular association with them beyond citizenship. These people that are hired by the Government are already in a special relationship with them, and can't be so simply treated the same.
Besides, the other option is to allow the government to do pretty much whatever they feel like, because citizens don't typically have any power to affect the budget so specifically. If the budget is even voted on, it's voted on in a approve-all or disapprove-all way.
[QUOTE]Thirdly, to your second, maybe not, but giving them so much power to affect state budgets isn't good either. We don't need more people doing what Snyder is doing because of Public Sector Unions do we?[/QUOTE]So much power? You mean, to achieve equal workforce quality to private sector employees?
[QUOTE]What you must realize is the these unions are basicly Special Interest Groups. Private Sector Unions don't have the same affect on state budgets and taxes that Public Sector ones do.[/QUOTE]Since you already brought up this point, I won't bother replying again.
[quote]So much power? You mean, to achieve equal workforce quality to private sector employees?[/quote]
unions in the public sector like the teacher's union and teamsters don't provide any quality to employees but act simply as special interest groups you are forced to join
[QUOTE=yawmwen;28656074]unions in the public sector like the teacher's union and teamsters don't provide any quality to employees but act simply as special interest groups you are forced to join[/QUOTE]
Your evidence of this is astounding.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;28656074]unions in the public sector like the teacher's union and teamsters don't provide any quality to employees but act simply as special interest groups you are forced to join[/QUOTE]
He's actually right about that for some jobs. I used to work for a company called Vons. It took a couple hundred out of my paycheck every other week for union dues, for fuck all.
Does he even think he's within his constitutional rights to do this? Does he even think that this is within his jurisdiction? Can't wait for the Supreme Court to crush him.
[QUOTE=deathstarboot;28657208]He's actually right about that for some jobs. I used to work for a company called Vons. It took a couple hundred out of my paycheck every other week for union dues, for fuck all.[/QUOTE]
Do you get benefits? Do you get paid higher than minimum wage? If either of these are true, would you have them if the union wasn't there?
[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;28657045]Your evidence of this is astounding.[/QUOTE]
teamster's for the prison my dad worked at required him to join, charging hundreds in union dues
it also didn't do much of anything, except campaign for whatever democratic ticket was running for office, which is where just about all the union due money went
[editline]17th March 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;28658103]Do you get benefits? Do you get paid higher than minimum wage? If either of these are true, would you have them if the union wasn't there?[/QUOTE]
benefits were atrocious for the job he was working. wage was fair
they have also voted to lower benefits for workers
[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;28657045]Your evidence of this is astounding.[/QUOTE]
The Nurses union at the neighboring hospital was forced to fire everyone who was new(Because that's the best idea:downs:) and then everyone was shifted around. My mother, who works at the NICU, ended up working with nurses who had never dealt with babies before. My mother and the other nurses at our hospital actually took a pension hit to help balance the budget for the hospital and saved it. These Union nurses did not, and now the entire area is fucked because the largest hospital is now in the red badly. There are just some things that Unions don't belong in.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;28658376]teamster's for the prison my dad worked at required him to join, charging hundreds in union dues
it also didn't do much of anything, except campaign for whatever democratic ticket was running for office, which is where just about all the union due money went
[editline]17th March 2011[/editline]
benefits were atrocious for the job he was working. wage was fair
they have also voted to lower benefits for workers[/QUOTE]
And I'm sure the business would instead have raised benefits if the union wasn't there. For example, Walmart is thoroughly anti-union and anti-worker, from everything I've heard from people that have worked there. The people have poor benefits, poor hours, and minimum wage pay (even for some management positions!). An effective union would never let that persist.
If there's something wrong with the union, you go to the union to correct it, or leave the union. You don't eliminate all unions because some aren't too great.
[editline]17th March 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Swilly;28658480]The Nurses union at the neighboring hospital was forced to fire everyone who was new(Because that's the best idea:downs:) and then everyone was shifted around. My mother, who works at the NICU, ended up working with nurses who had never dealt with babies before. My mother and the other nurses at our hospital actually took a pension hit to help balance the budget for the hospital and saved it. These Union nurses did not, and now the entire area is fucked because the largest hospital is now in the red badly. There are just some things that Unions don't belong in.[/QUOTE]
This is more a problem with unions being mandatory for some jobs, which I agree is pretty stupid. A particular group of workers shouldn't get more benefits just because they happen to be in the right group.
[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;28658547]And I'm sure the business would instead have raised benefits if the union wasn't there. For example, Walmart is thoroughly anti-union and anti-worker, from everything I've heard from people that have worked there. The people have poor benefits, poor hours, and minimum wage pay (even for some management positions!). An effective union would never let that persist.
If there's something wrong with the union, you go to the union to correct it, or leave the union. You don't eliminate all unions because some aren't too great.[/QUOTE]
wal mart has on average higher than minimum pay, but is also a very low end job
this isnt a business my dad was working for, it was a state prison
you cant leave teamster's union without leaving your job, you are literally forced to sign a union contract when you sign your job contract
[QUOTE=yawmwen;28658623]wal mart has on average higher than minimum pay, but is also a very low end job
this isnt a business my dad was working for, it was a state prison
you cant leave teamster's union without leaving your job, you are literally forced to sign a union contract when you sign your job contract[/QUOTE]
For Walmart, not in my region. It's basically all minimum wage jobs, even into management.
Also see the edit in my last post.
and im not saying to dismantle unions or take away collective bargaining, i am saying that a lot of unions are completely rubbish, there needs to be some serious reform on the way the government handles unions
[editline]17th March 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;28658650]For Walmart, not in my region. It's basically all minimum wage jobs, even into management.
Also see the edit in my last post.[/QUOTE]
wal mart in my town has a higher average wage than most jobs in my town
[editline]17th March 2011[/editline]
also keeping pay down for the workers has an added benefit of keeping prices down for the store
since wal mart tends to supply most life neccesities to people in small towns at an affordable price i would say its a decent tradeoff considering the workers are still paid pretty fairly within federal and state law
even if workers at wal mart got paid more they would end up paying more when they shop at wal mart anyways
shame that nobody cares about the world any more
too busy sitting their asses down and watching snooki cry about makeup
[QUOTE=Archy;28660054]shame that nobody cares about the world any more
too busy sitting their asses down and watching snooki cry about makeup[/QUOTE]
im tired of this bullshit
since when has anyone cared much about the world?
we have always been obsessed with pop culture
besides its better be distracted with stupid pop culture than stressing yourself about the world 24/7, especially when they are problems you cant fix
[quote]it also didn't do much of anything, except campaign for whatever democratic ticket was running for office, which is where just about all the union due money went[/quote]
it's illegal for dues money to be used for campaigning. only voluntary contributions are allowed to be used to that end
[QUOTE=Swilly;28658480]The Nurses union at the neighboring hospital was forced to fire everyone who was new(Because that's the best idea:downs:) and then everyone was shifted around. My mother, who works at the NICU, ended up working with nurses who had never dealt with babies before. My mother and the other nurses at our hospital actually took a pension hit to help balance the budget for the hospital and saved it. These Union nurses did not, and now the entire area is fucked because the largest hospital is now in the red badly. There are just some things that Unions don't belong in.[/QUOTE]
because that's clearly unions and not your mother/other nurses right? no reasoning except your own to explain a fucking anecdotal point.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28652157]Glaber, come on.
[editline]17th March 2011[/editline]
if you can spew out a wall of text that's mostly gibberish, then you can give me a god damn honest answer as to how you can just be okay with the things they're doing when they're so wrong clearly.[/QUOTE]
I did respond, bad reader.
[QUOTE=Glaber;28641804]As I've now viewed the quoted video, I can no longer support either side in this issue[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;28642441]I think he did. He said "now that I've seen the quoted video, I can't support either side".[/QUOTE]
If I can't support either side, how can I defend the actions that are documented in that video after watching it?
Learn to read the posts that come before yours that popped up when you were making your post.
[QUOTE=Glaber;28664078]I did respond, bad reader.
If I can't support either side, how can I defend the actions that are documented in that video after watching it?
Learn to read the posts that come before yours that popped up when you were making your post.[/QUOTE]
but yet glaber, you still defend the republican actions and you don't have the where-with-all to be able to defend their actions in general.
Just fucking admit it, you support fucked up people who don't support you.
[editline]17th March 2011[/editline]
Don't say you don't defend them, you have been for days since you made that post of "I can't support them".
[editline]17th March 2011[/editline]
you lie and can very well support them. why? doesn't that make you wonder what else you've been lied to about?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28664076]because that's clearly unions and not your mother/other nurses right? no reasoning except your own to explain a fucking anecdotal point.[/QUOTE]
So you explain their actions. I'd trust my mom's words, an experienced nurse who has a master's degree and teaches it on the side over you.
Unions are important, but there are some places they don't belong where PEOPLE'S LIVES are at stake.
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