• Jeremy Corbyn condemns 'all Venezuela violence'
    53 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52550660]what right-wing? the maduro and chavez government have spent years driving dissidents out of the country, throwing them into prisons, or murdering them. what other elite is there in Venezuela? there's nothing left but the regime now surely you must be joking how can you make things it any worse with "austerity" (although the Venezuelan government doesn't even bother to pay for food imports anymore) when the country is in the middle of a fucking famine? I mean how dishonest do you have to be, to look at a country that's objectively gotten worse and become a shithole that millions flee from, and conclude that the opposition (somehow composed of far-right loonies) is the genuine concern when the government is literally gunning down unarmed protesters in the streets?[/QUOTE] Yeah man, maduro's government is evil incarnate, and the opposition are nothing but saints, which somehow don't have a political side, literally everyone over there is fighting for "justice and democracy" :downs: , also maduro and his people are literally the only elite and control everything with an absolute iron fist after they exterminated all the opposition in a way that would make north korea jealous, but they're somehow still protesting, must be their ghosts or something. See how ridiculous it sounds, that how you're making venezuela look like, it makes no sense, there are still oligarchs, plenty in fact, it not like chavez went around executing people who opposed him when he was elected, nor did maduro, you seem to believe venezuela is like north korea or something, not mention the are cases like this caused in part, by said oligarchs: [url]http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2014/03/hoarding-causing-venezuela-food-shortages-20143210236836920.html[/url] Also violence by the opposition too: [url]https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2017/jul/31/bomb-explodes-in-middle-of-venezuelan-police-motorcycle-convoy-video[/url] [url]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/28/what-do-we-know-about-the-venezuela-helicopter-attack[/url] Also, yeah, the poor will surely be able to afford food when a right-wing government gets to power and introduces the standard package austerity latin america gets every single time a right-wing government gets to power over here(which has a tendency to immediately make everyone who was poor/middle-class and stupid enough to support said right-wing to regret their decision eventually, generally too late, like argentinians currently). You might want to stick to european issues, because you clearly don't know anything about latin america and especially south america. Latin american right-wing, isn't like yours, which despite sucking, don't try to sell off their country at [B]every single opportunity[/B], though i suppose that might be changing with how much european far-right seems to love russia, maybe you'll get a taste of what we experienced for several decades, it would certainly be ironic. [QUOTE=Gorgus;52550710]You're not only blinded by ideology, you're also incredibly naive. You basically said that left wing extremism can't be dangerous and that left wing dictatorships can't exist because of that reason, even though we can see the obvious uprising of a regime ruled with an iron fist. This has [B]nothing[/B] do to with left or right wing, this is about preserving democracy and it's pretty pathetic that you're not taking it seriously just because Maduro is left wing.[/QUOTE] Every time this story of "preseving democracy" gets thrown around here, it never ends like that, how can anyone still believe it, i have no idea, and i said before, maduro is toast, because he is left, it's pretty obvious he won't last, but you're incredibly optimistic if you think this will solve most problems. [QUOTE=Big Bang;52550724]I am, yes. I am telling you, from what I know as a Venezuelan, about Venezuela, that the power lies squarely on Maduro and his goons. Again, if you knew anything about yhe country, you'd understand this isn't a simple left / right thing. The poor are already experiencing cruel austerity, they're facing privatization on the hands of the military, Maduro has sold our resources off to the Russians and the Chinese, to whom we have debts we can't pay. Maduro sold PDVSA off to Goldman Sachs after selling them billions in bonds at 30 cents to the dollar. The things that you fear will happen to Venezuela are what's happening now.[/QUOTE] Which reiterates what i said about him being stupid, he is doing the exact same thing leftist leaders in latin america believe themselves forced to do when they find themselves in a crisis, turn to right-wing policies, generally to appease part the top part of their base of power, which end up pissing off their lower base of support, since it fucks over the poor, which is yet another reason why i said he won't last long, but again, it's optimism to believe removing him, will "restore democracy", and somehow miraculously fix the country, crisis have multiple reasons, always, to assume maduro is somehow responsible for them all is wishful thinking.
The people protesting on the streets are doing so under the threat of being killed by the police and National Guard, like hundreds have during the past 4 months, they do it because they're desperate, they do it because they can't hold in their anger anymore. That makes Maduro a democrat in your eyes? Then you must be absolutely fucking blind. I lived through the Venezuelan crisis, I know how bad it got when Maduro took power, I saw it with my own eyes, are you saying I'm lying? I have my entire family abandoning the country with whatever they can carry, did they lie too? Are they fascist oligarchs as well?
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;52550740] Every time this story of "preseving democracy" gets thrown around here, it never ends like that, how can anyone still believe it, i have no idea, and i said before, [B]maduro is toast, because he is left,[/B] it's pretty obvious he won't last, but you're incredibly optimistic if you think this will solve most problems.[/QUOTE] Look you can keep repeating that but that doesn't make it true. And trying to write my arguments off just because I'm european shows that you're obviously insecure about your own. You're literally saying that left wing dictatorships can't exist because it's in South America, what kind of logic is that?!
[QUOTE=Big Bang;52550750]The people protesting on the streets are doing so under the threat of being killed by the police and National Guard, like hundreds have during the past 4 months, they do it because they're desperate, they do it because they can't hold in their anger anymore. That makes Maduro a democrat in your eyes? Then you must be absolutely fucking blind. I lived through the Venezuelan crisis, I know how bad it got when Maduro took power, I saw it with my own eyes, are you saying I'm lying? I have my entire family abandoning the country with whatever they can carry, did they lie too? Are they fascist oligarchs as well?[/QUOTE] Well, you're certainly not poor, considering you managed to leave for sweden, and it seems odd you're taking offense on me calling latin american right-wing quasi-fascist(which they pretty much always been, history proves it), i'm not referring to the bulk of the protesters if that what you're wondering, i don't know if you're playing dumb of not, because i've seen quite a few venezuelans, who despite despising maduro, don't act like the whole thing is a black and white thing like you do. [QUOTE=Gorgus;52550766]Look you can keep repeating that but that doesn't make it true. And trying to write my arguments off just because I'm european shows that you're obviously insecure about your own. You're literally saying that left wing dictatorships can't exist because it's in South America, what kind of logic is that?![/QUOTE] get a history book man, latin america doesn't exactly have a track record of being able to keep DEMOCRATIC ELECTED left-wing governments in power, much less leftist dictatorships(aside from cuba, but not for lack of effort by the US, that's for sure), i seriously doubt we'll ever see a leftist dictatorship, or anything close to it in latin america, actually last(aside again, from the exception that proves the rule, cuba).
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;52550767]Well, you're certainly not poor, considering you managed to leave for sweden, and it seems odd you're taking offense on me calling latin american right-wing quasi-fascist(which they pretty much always been, history proves it), i'm not referring to the bulk of the protesters if that what you're wondering, i don't know if you're playing dumb of not, because i've seen quite a few venezuelans, who despite despising maduro, don't act like the whole thing is a black and white thing like you do.[/QUOTE] If you had followed Big Bang's posts on Facepunch when he still was in Venezuela you'd know that he struggled a lot and he had a very hard time getting out of the country. "Well, you're certainly not poor, considering you managed to leave for sweden" Now that's just rude and immature. And it's flawed logic again. That's like telling a jew who managed to leave Germany during the Nazi regime that it can't be [I]that[/I] bad since he managed to leave.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;52550767]Well, you're certainly not poor, considering you managed to leave for sweden, and it seems odd you're taking offense on me calling latin american right-wing quasi-fascist(which they pretty much always been, history proves it), i'm not referring to the bulk of the protesters if that what you're wondering, i don't know if you're playing dumb of not, because i've seen quite a few venezuelans, who despite despising maduro, don't act like the whole thing is a black and white thing like you do.[/QUOTE] Fuck off, my account doesn't matter because I escaped the country and didn't die trying? You don't know what I had to do to get to Sweden, you will never know what it's like to have to abandon everything and everyone you knew and loved because some shithead ruined your life for a couple bucks.
[QUOTE=Gorgus;52550773]If you had followed Big Bang on Facepunch when he still was in Venezuela you'd know that he struggled a lot and he had a very hard time getting out of the country. "Well, you're certainly not poor, considering you managed to leave for sweden" Now that's just rude and immature. And it's flawed logic again. That's like telling a jew who managed to leave Germany during the Nazi regime that it can't be [I]that[/I] bad since he managed to leave.[/QUOTE] oh i saw his posts, several of them, it's that we been getting our own info here in Brazil too, especially with our brazilian media constantly talking about venezuela recently to distract the population about internal problems(and our right-wing outlets, to rile-up hate against anything leftist), and comparing venezuela with nazi germany, is an insult to the jews, shit is bad, but it's not ANYWHERE near that bad. i just find it odd, that despite being venezuelan, clearly instructed, as he speaks english perfectly, he acts as if politics don't exist and the whole thing is black and white, i don't know anyone who does that, even in brazil, which probably has one of the most apolitical populations ever. [QUOTE=Marbalo;52550790]I think his point is more centered around what happens [i]after[/i] Maduro is ousted, which is a very valid concern because everytime people think "well it cant get much worse than this", it almost always does.[/QUOTE] ESPECIALLY in south america, as any history book will prove.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;52550790]I think his point is more centered around what happens [i]after[/i] Maduro is ousted, which is a very valid concern because everytime people think "well it cant get much worse than this", it almost always does.[/QUOTE] The entire reason why I want people to stop demonizing protesters through lies and bullshit is because the only alternative to a popular revolt leading to a change in government, is for the military to rebel and start a civil war, and I've just about had it with these fucking military men holding all the power.
Hey Wizards, it's funny that [B]you're[/B] complaining about us only seeing black and white while you're the one who keeps bringing up the evil right wingers all the time and obviously fail to acknowledge that the left wing can be just as dangerous which we can see first hand here. If anything, you're the one only seeing black and white since your logic seems to be that those evil right wingers are gonna kill everybody, while a left wing dictatorship in a country with starving people obiously doesn't pose a threat at all.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;52550790]I think his point is more centered around what happens [i]after[/i] Maduro is ousted, which is a very valid concern because everytime people think "well it cant get much worse than this", it almost always does.[/QUOTE] In this case though it actually is hard to get much worse. The [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_doing_business_index"]Ease of doing business index[/URL] kept by the World Bank Group has listed Venezuela at the bottom part of its list consistently for a decade now. After Maduro is gone, Venezuela could emulate fucking [I]Syria[/I] and it would be an improvement.
[QUOTE=Big Bang;52550803]The entire reason why I want people to stop demonizing protesters through lies and bullshit is because the only alternative to a popular revolt leading to a change in government, is for the military to rebel and start a civil war, and I've just about had it with these fucking military men holding all the power.[/QUOTE] Who is demonizing protesters, aside from possibly maduro's government? if anything western media in general is being EXTREMELY friendly to them, and giving them an extreme amount of focus, i literally haven't seen a single outlet demonize venezuelan protesters. [QUOTE=Hidole555;52550807]In this case though it actually is hard to get much worse. The [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_doing_business_index"]Ease of doing business index[/URL] kept by the World Bank Group has listed Venezuela at the bottom part of its list consistently for a decade now. After Maduro is gone,[B] Venezuela could emulate fucking [I]Syria[/I] and it would be an improvement[/B].[/QUOTE] [IMG]http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/160727112538-01-syria-suicide-bombing-0727-exlarge-169.jpg[/IMG] Yeah... i have my doubts. Also i have no idea how a war-torn country that had so many people running away from it, it caused a political crisis on a continent and has literal extremists controlling a significant part of it, has a better rating on that list.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;52550794]oh i saw his posts, several of them, it's that we been getting our own info here in Brazil too, especially with our brazilian media constantly talking about venezuela recently to distract the population about internal problems(and our right-wing outlets, to rile-up hate against anything leftist), and comparing venezuela with nazi germany, is an insult to the jews, shit is bad, but it's not ANYWHERE near that bad. i just find it odd, that despite being venezuelan, clearly instructed, as he speaks english perfectly, he acts as if politics don't exist and the whole thing is black and white, i don't know anyone who does that, even in brazil, which probably has one of the most apolitical populations ever.[/QUOTE] Go fucking see it for yourself then. It's a short flight over from Brazil. If you're so sure there isn't a humanitarian crisis going on, fly to Caracas. Better yet, help a Venezuelan out, have them come to Brazil and tell you what they've seen.
[QUOTE=Big Bang;52550813]Go fucking see it for yourself then. It's a short flight over from Brazil. If you're so sure there isn't a humanitarian crisis going on, fly to Caracas. Better yet, help a Venezuelan out, have them come to Brazil and tell you what they've seen.[/QUOTE] i never said there wasn't, please don't put words my mouth.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;52550820]i never said there wasn't, please don't put words my mouth.[/QUOTE] Don't act like you didn't try to play down the situation. [QUOTE=Wizards Court;52550767][B]Well, you're certainly not poor, considering you managed to leave for sweden,[/B] and it seems odd you're taking offense on me calling latin american right-wing quasi-fascist(which they pretty much always been, history proves it), i'm not referring to the bulk of the protesters if that what you're wondering, i don't know if you're playing dumb of not, because i've seen quite a few venezuelans, who despite despising maduro, don't act like the whole thing is a black and white thing like you do.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Gorgus;52550825]Don't act like you didn't try to play down the situation.[/QUOTE] where did i said there wasn't a humanitarian crisis on venezuela at large, i said he wasn't poor, that's it, again, don't put words in my mouth. [QUOTE=Gorgus;52550805]Hey Wizards, it's funny that [B]you're[/B] complaining about us only seeing black and white while you're the one who keeps bringing up the evil right wingers all the time and obviously fail to acknowledge that the left wing can be just as dangerous which we can see first hand here. If anything, you're the one only seeing black and white since your logic seems to be that those evil right wingers are gonna kill everybody, while a left wing dictatorship in a country with starving people obiously doesn't pose a threat at all.[/QUOTE] well, they do have a tendency of doing that over here(or at least having a sizable amount of people in it, that WANT to do that, again), it's not my fault. And like i said, our right-wing isn't nice like yours, especially your german right-wing, which excluding the far-right part of it, seems actually nice and reasonable at least.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;52550809] [IMG]http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/160727112538-01-syria-suicide-bombing-0727-exlarge-169.jpg[/IMG] Yeah... i have my doubts. Also i have no idea how a war-torn country that had so many people running away from it, it caused a political crisis on a continent and has literal extremists controlling a significant part of it, has a better rating on that list.[/QUOTE] Bashar al-Assad is a crazy dictator, true. But he is not crazy enough to expropriate property from businesses or declare bakers an enemy to the people. There are cities behind the front lines in the Syrian civil war. I could invest in a business in one of them and not have to worry about Assad's goons coming in and seizing my capital. That same reassurance isn't present in Venezuela, which has been hemorrhaging its non-oil sectors through capital flight incited by its broken policies for years now. Anyone that has the money to get out of Venezuela and put their eggs in a different basket has gotten out, and there's no one wanting to get in.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;52550837]where did i said there wasn't a humanitarian crisis on venezuela at large, i said he wasn't poor, that's it, again, don't put words in my mouth. well, they do have a tendency of doing that over here(or at least having a sizable amount of people in it, that WANT to do that, again), it's not my fault. And like i said, our right-wing isn't nice like yours, especially your german right-wing, which excluding the far-right part of it, seems actually nice and reasonable at least.[/QUOTE] Funny how you seem to criticize my lack of knowledge about the political spectrum in Venezuela yet you lack any knowledge of the political spectrum in Germany. The CDU isn't right wing anymore, their slogan is literally "Die Mitte" now which means "The Center". It's a centrist party now, slightly right of the SPD. The AFD is the new right wing and I wouldn't call them nice or reasonable personally: climate change denial, wanting to leave the EU etc. But I don't wanna get too off topic here. You just keep deflecting any criticism or worries on the right wing, and I don't believe that everyone who isn't a socialist in South America is an evil right wing extremist, no matter how often you keep telling me.
[QUOTE=Hidole555;52550842]Bashar al-Assad is a crazy dictator, true. But he is not crazy enough to expropriate property from businesses or declare bakers an enemy to the people. There are cities behind the front lines in the Syrian civil war. I could invest in a business in one of them and not have to worry about Assad's goons coming in and seizing my capital. That same reassurance isn't present in Venezuela, which has been hemorrhaging its non-oil sectors through capital flight incited by its broken policies for years now. Anyone that has the money to get out of Venezuela and put their eggs in a different basket has gotten out, and there's no one wanting to get in.[/QUOTE] You realize that saying, that a brutal dictator that's willing to literally drop chemical weapons on its own people, is better for business because at least he won't take your private property might as well be a insult towards capitalism right? [QUOTE=Gorgus;52550851]Funny how you seem to criticize my lack of knowledge about the political spectrum in Venezuela yet you lack any knowledge of the political spectrum in Germany. The CDU isn't right wing anymore, their slogan is literally "Die Mitte" now which means "The Center". It's a centrist party now, slightly right of the SPD. The AFD is the new right wing and I wouldn't call them nice or reasonable personally: climate change denial, wanting to leave the EU etc. But I don't wanna get too off topic here. You just keep deflecting any criticism or worries on the right wing, a[B]nd I don't believe that everyone who isn't a socialist in South America is an evil right wing extremist[/B], no matter how often you keep telling me.[/QUOTE] I never said, but whatever, and in my defense, CDU did still identify as center-right until rather recently.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;52550853]You realize that saying, that a brutal dictator that's willing to literally drop chemical weapons on its own people, is better for business because at least he won't take your private property might as well be a insult towards capitalism right?[/QUOTE] Oh well I'm sorry I hurt capitalism's feelings but it's true. No one wants to set up a business if they expect the government to take it away on a whim. This is basic economics.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;52550820]i never said there wasn't, please don't put words my mouth.[/QUOTE] You've made it very clear that my account and my problems didn't matter because according to you I'm rich. Have you ever met a single Venezuelan? Why do you think you know more about this crisis than I do?
[QUOTE=Marbalo;52550863]To demonize the protesters at this time is a mistake, I agree, however each time this sort of thing happens, people focus almost entirely on the short-term. Meaning; people are starving and are being abused by the government, ergo, the government must be removed as quickly as possible. I haven't seen any credible Venezuelan opposition leaders propping up and leading the resistance however. Nevermind leading the resistance, even, nobody seems to think about who exactly is going to replace Maduro. And surely there are already people vying to fill the power vacuum that will, of course, inevitably manifest itself, as is the nature of civil uprisings. And what happens when whoever comes after Maduro just fucks things up even more? I think this is a critical aspect of all uprisings that, understandably, nobody has the time of day to ponder -- yet it is the single most important thing to focus on before people start going for the pitchforks and the molotovs. South America, as Wizard has already mentioned, is really, really struggling with the concept of democratic governing. I have very little faith that a country so completely engulfed by corruption, cutting corners, and fuck-you-got-mine mentalities, is simply going to change overnight. As if everyone is just under Maduro's spell, and once you remove him from office, suddenly all the bad shit is going to fix itself and a natural, balanced, democratic leader will materialize out of thin air. The problem is made worse by the fact that Maduro was "left", and the only natural thing to happen is him being replaced by someone who is "right", and "right-wing" plus "South America" is a very dangerous mix, possibly even more dangerous than Maduro. I dont want to speak for Wizard, but surely this is what he's trying to say. Regardless, I think it's critical, especially at a time like this, just before everything explodes, to have a good, long, hard think about what you guys are going to do once Maduro is inevitably ousted.[/QUOTE] I was at the hospital and couldn't reply to this. Of course there are people that want to fill the power vacuum, those are the opposition leaders, of which there are several, and who stand very differently in the political spectrum, some who are straight up Chavistas but not Maduristas, some who are left leaning but not socialist, and some who are center-right. There is no participation from far-right parties at all in the Venezuelan political process, there never has been, and they've never had any real power. The idea that every single party wants austerity, privatisation and so forth is based on a broad generalisation by people who really haven't a clue about Venezuela, it's previous elections, or its political landscape. We don't want a [I]person[/I] to replace Maduro. We want a new government, we don't want [I]just[/I] Maduro gone, it's him, and all of his cabinet, plus the TSJ, plus the CNE, plus the Comptroller, plus every minister. This next government will be formed by a coalition of parties, parties which are democratic, have won elections democratically, and have always vowed for democracy, and will schedule for general elections as soon as possible. It is my personal view that Venezuela should move away from a presidentialist system and try and decentralise power as much as it can possibly do. Again, the reason why this isn't a left or right issue is simple, [I]there are Chavistas in the opposition[/I], the MUD is a coalition, and there is no single ideology within opposition parties. I am not right wing, and neither is the people in the opposition that I support. Very tough decisions will have to be made by the subsequent government. Idiots will paint it as austerity, but truly we need a way to bring rationality back to our economy. And that will involve things such as getting rid of petrol and gas subsidies that are costing us a full fourth of our GDP, that will involve paying multiple billion dollars worth of debt to Chinese, Russians and American investors that the government has done, it will involve getting rid of the currency control scheme that has led to the biggest source of corruption the world has ever seen, it will involve sanitising entire departments and institutes made useless through nepotism and cronyism. Bringing Venezuela back to even 90's levels of production will involve decades of hard work. All I ask is for you to have faith in the Venezuelan people. We've been through enough, we periodically tend to forget the value of democracy but I'm sure there every single Venezuelan living today wishes the country were like it was before. If you cannot trust the people, over the words of a dictator who has bled the country dry, then you shouldn't dare call yourself a leftist.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;52550740]Yeah man, maduro's government is evil incarnate, and the opposition are nothing but saints, which somehow don't have a political side, literally everyone over there is fighting for "justice and democracy" :downs: , also maduro and his people are literally the only elite and control everything with an absolute iron fist after they exterminated all the opposition in a way that would make north korea jealous, but they're somehow still protesting, must be their ghosts or something.[/quote] what the hell are you talking about? this is a government that's out and out a dictatorship! why the fuck are people fleeing the country? where is this mystical extreme rightwing opposition that's been sitting in the shadows for the best part of two decades while the government nationalised everything and drove the economy down the toilet? what makes you think that they'll act now when most of the politically minded have been driven underground, into prison, abroad, or into the grave? [quote]See how ridiculous it sounds, that how you're making venezuela look like, it makes no sense, there are still oligarchs, plenty in fact, it not like chavez went around executing people who opposed him when he was elected, nor did maduro, you seem to believe venezuela is like north korea or something, not mention the are cases like this caused in part, by said oligarchs: [url]http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2014/03/hoarding-causing-venezuela-food-shortages-20143210236836920.html[/url] Also violence by the opposition too: [url]https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2017/jul/31/bomb-explodes-in-middle-of-venezuelan-police-motorcycle-convoy-video[/url] [url]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/28/what-do-we-know-about-the-venezuela-helicopter-attack[/url] Also, yeah, the poor will surely be able to afford food when a right-wing government gets to power and introduces the standard package austerity latin america gets every single time a right-wing government gets to power over here(which has a tendency to immediately make everyone who was poor/middle-class and stupid enough to support said right-wing to regret their decision eventually, generally too late, like argentinians currently).[/quote] oh come on, one of those articles (even though its bullshit) is from 2014 when the famine had yet to develop fully. you've had somebody from the fucking country telling you about the shortages and sufferings and you write it off with bullshit articles written by hack frauds talking about how hoarding is causing shortages when venezuelans regularly loot shops and warehouses for food and have fled the country in search of food. where is all of this food hidden? [quote]You might want to stick to european issues, because you clearly don't know anything about latin america and especially south america. Latin american right-wing, isn't like yours, which despite sucking, don't try to sell off their country at [B]every single opportunity[/B], though i suppose that might be changing with how much european far-right seems to love russia, maybe you'll get a taste of what we experienced for several decades, it would certainly be ironic.[/QUOTE] oh come on don't peddle bullshit how do you have the balls to say "you don't know anything about latin america" when you then go on to say how Big Bang is wrong and shit on him because he "isn't poor" when he's talked about the fucking crisis thats ruined his country and his life and forced him to move overseas? what right do you have to call me out for being ignorant and then turn around and discount the experiences of somebody vastly more qualified to talk about it than you? you don't got shit on him pal [quote]Also i have no idea how a war-torn country that had so many people running away from it, it caused a political crisis on a continent and has literal extremists controlling a significant part of it, has a better rating on that list.[/quote] most of this applies to venezuela. all of it will probably apply in a year from now at this rate
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