NHTSA considering all cars required to have a "blackbox" that record all events
148 replies, posted
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30115271]Wouldn't it be funny if you were in a crash (only involving damage to property, no injury [because I'm nice]) and you were actually in the right, but couldn't prove it, because you didn't have an EDR?[/QUOTE]
Convenient for some ≠ necessary for all
[QUOTE=CjienX;30115310]Convenient for some ≠ necessary for all[/QUOTE]
How is it going to have a negative effect on your life?
[QUOTE=Mastotron;30115317]How is it going to have a negative effect on your life?[/QUOTE]
I don't want to have a blackbox in my new car. I'm paying for my car, it's going to have a negative effect because I'm going to constantly know that it's there even though it doesn't need to be because some asshole with power wants to stick his nose in my business.
You seem to forget that it's possible to determine pretty much everything needed to see how fast a car was going etc. based purely on skid mark analyzation.
[QUOTE=CjienX;30115343]I don't want to have a blackbox in my new car. I'm paying for my car, it's going to have a negative effect because I'm going to constantly know that it's there even though it doesn't need to be because some asshole with power wants to stick his nose in my business.
You seem to forget that it's possible to determine pretty much everything needed to see how fast a car was going etc. based purely on skid mark analyzation.[/QUOTE]
Dude.
It records vehicle data, that's it, you're car already fucking does that with the EMC.
Fucksake it already constantly monitors itself, now all it can do is remember a half an hour window in case something happens.
It doesn't talk to the government, it doesn't invade your mind, it is not a beacon for the electric eyes in the sky, it doesn't let you be tracked in case you're a terrorist.
It's a fucking box, with some damn G-sensors and hard drive.
OH NO WOE IS ME I HAVE A COMPUTER IN MY ENGINE :emo:
And I'm doing forensics, skid mark analysis is ironically hit and miss at points, and why not have a tiny little computer that says "Yo this cracka breaked here, but not soon enough and he smacked this honkey crossing the road"
[QUOTE=Mastotron;30115377]Dude.
It records vehicle data, that's it, you're car already fucking does that with the EMC.
Fucksake it already constantly monitors itself, now all it can do is remember a half an hour window in case something happens.
It doesn't talk to the government, it doesn't invade your mind, it is not a beacon for the electric eyes in the sky, it doesn't let you be tracked in case you're a terrorist.
It's a fucking box, with some damn G-sensors and hard drive.
OH NO WOE IS ME I HAVE A COMPUTER IN MY ENGINE :emo:[/QUOTE]
So if it already does it, why do they need to put more shit in to do the exact same thing?
And who the fuck said that it's a spy device? I'm arguing on the principle that we don't need this shit in our cars.
[QUOTE=CjienX;30115310]Convenient for some ≠ necessary for all[/QUOTE]
Same could've been said before any legislation was applied.
What about indicators or reverse lights?
They weren't required until the mid 60s or something, but before then, only some cars had it.
Convenient for some ≠ necessary for all, right?
[QUOTE=CjienX;30115343]I don't want to have a blackbox in my new car. I'm paying for my car, it's going to have a negative effect because I'm going to constantly know that it's there even though it doesn't need to be because some asshole with power wants to stick his nose in my business.[/quote]
Hahahahahaha. The device is inside your car. What about the ECU of the engine? That records each time the engine stuffs up, records error codes for the vehicle and other data so that the dealership can look at it when it goes in for repair. Plus, states in the US are slowly enacting legislation that make the data yours, and may only take it in the production of a warrant (which may be obtained in causes of crash investigations).
[QUOTE=CjienX;30115343]You seem to forget that it's possible to determine pretty much everything needed to see how fast a car was going etc. based purely on skid mark analyzation.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but what about wheel spin, if traction control was used or even enabled, ABS, DBR, RPM of engine, what gear, speed recorded, braking pressure applied, clutch engaged or disengaged, accelerator pressure etc.
There is a wealth of information that can help an investigation that is not available before the EDR's introduction. Plus skid mark analysation isn't exact and provides estimates, the EDR is exact.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30115406]Same could've been said before any legislation was applied.
What about indicators or reverse lights?
They weren't required until the mid 60s or something, but before then, only some cars had it.
Convenient for some ≠ necessary for all, right?
Hahahahahaha. The device is inside your car. What about the ECU of the engine? That records each time the engine stuffs up, records error codes for the vehicle and other data so that the dealership can look at it when it goes in for repair. Plus, states in the US are slowly enacting legislation that make the data yours, and may only take it in the production of a warrant (which may be obtained in causes of crash investigations).
Yes, but what about wheel spin, if traction control enabled, RPM of engine, what gear, speed recorded, braking pressure applied, clutch engaged or disengaged, accelerator pressure etc.
There is a wealth of information that can help an investigation that is not available before the EDR's introduction. Plus skid mark analysation isn't exact and provides estimates, the EDR is exact.[/QUOTE]
Indicators and rear lights assist other drivers on the road for the duration of the vehicle being on the road. This does jack shit for others.
Because the car monitors it for driving, it doesn't remember cause it doesn't have a memory unit for what happened previously, because it's not important to keeping the car on the road, the EMC handles what is happening at the current moment in time, not 5 minutes ago.
And I'm arguing on the principle that if someone gets split in half by some ass hat going 80 mph down a residential road you should be able to know without a shadow of a doubt whether or not he can be convicted or whether or not he's lying and this does that.
Complain all you like about it, I really don't care, it just seems ridiculously stupid to argue against your computer getting a hard drive.
[QUOTE=CjienX;30115393]So if it already does it, why do they need to put more shit in to do the exact same thing?
And who the fuck said that it's a spy device? I'm arguing on the principle that we don't need this shit in our cars.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1092717-NHTSA-considering-all-cars-required-to-have-a-quot-blackbox-quot-that-record-all-events?p=30114025&viewfull=1#post30114025[/url]
You explained here that you don't trust the Government to only access it in a crash. Yet somehow you haven't realised that only 30 seconds of data might be recorded in an event of a crash.
[editline]29th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=CjienX;30115421]Indicators and rear lights assist other drivers on the road for the duration of the vehicle being on the road. This does jack shit for others.[/QUOTE]
Yes it does. It allows the determination of who is at fault in a crash or accident.
If you actually believe it does not, you are purposefully being naive.
[QUOTE=Mastotron;30115424]Because the car monitors it for driving, it doesn't remember cause it doesn't have a memory unit for what happened previously, because it's not important to keeping the car on the road, the EMC handles what is happening at the current moment in time, not 5 minutes ago.
And I'm arguing on the principle that if someone gets split in half by some ass hat going 80 mph down a residential road you should be able to know without a shadow of a doubt whether or not he can be convicted or whether or not he's lying and this does that.
Complain all you like about it, I really don't care, it just seems ridiculously stupid to argue against your computer getting a hard drive.[/QUOTE]
If someone gets split in half by some ass hat going 80mph all you need to know is which car it was. You don't need to know every detail to know that they weren't speeding accidentally.
[editline]29th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30115431][url]http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1092717-NHTSA-considering-all-cars-required-to-have-a-quot-blackbox-quot-that-record-all-events?p=30114025&viewfull=1#post30114025[/url]
You explained here that you don't trust the Government to only access it in a crash. Yet somehow you haven't realised that only 30 seconds of data might be recorded in an event of a crash.
[editline]29th May 2011[/editline]
Yes it does. It allows the determination of who is at fault in a crash or accident.
If you actually believe it does not, you are purposefully being naive.[/QUOTE]
Notice how I say [b]for the duration of the vehicle being on the road[/b].
This doesn't help everybody, it helps a small minority of cases where they'd need the specific details. Like I said before, it doesn't take a fucking rocket scientist to figure out if it was accidental or not.
[QUOTE=CjienX;30115443]Notice how I say [b]for the duration of the vehicle being on the road[/b].
This doesn't help everybody, it helps a small minority of cases where they'd need the specific details. Like I said before, it doesn't take a fucking rocket scientist to figure out if it was accidental or not.[/QUOTE]
Umm, so why do cars come with airbags now?
Or seatbelts for that matter.
Only few people need those tools as not everyone lands up in an accident.
This serves a purpose in determining who is at fault, or if there was something wrong with the car etc. Get over it. These EDRs are good. As said before, current crash analysis isn't exact. This is.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30115495]Umm, so why do cars come with airbags now?
Or seatbelts for that matter.
Only few people need those tools as not everyone lands up in an accident.
This serves a purpose in determining who is at fault, or if there was something wrong with the car etc. Get over it. These EDRs are good. As said before, current crash analysis isn't exact. This is.[/QUOTE]
Because if they weren't, when you get into a head on collision and fly out your windshield, you could sue whoever made the car for not providing sufficient safety equipment.
[QUOTE=CjienX;30115443]If someone gets split in half by some ass hat going 80mph all you need to know is which car it was. You don't need to know every detail to know that they weren't speeding accidentally.
[editline]29th May 2011[/editline]
Notice how I say [b]for the duration of the vehicle being on the road[/b].
This doesn't help everybody, it helps a small minority of cases where they'd need the specific details. Like I said before, it doesn't take a fucking rocket scientist to figure out if it was accidental or not.[/QUOTE]
Actually there is incredibly vital data buried in that example specifically, did they brake, and when.
That data could define whether it was an act of murder or just vehicular manslaughter and reckless driving, which defines whether someone gets life in prison or a few years.
This shit is vital data and you being a petulant child over it is just plain stupid, and you can't just go "yeah this was an accident case solved lets go home" You have to go by evidence and a lot of manslaughter charges and crashes have shaky evidence, this clears that up.
And whether you like it or not, cars are gonna start having these as standard and you're just gonna have to cry and bawl, or grow up and accept the fact that this is going to help people when it does happen.
And if cars don't need these then what's the difference between cars and planes? Why not remove these from planes, cause really lets face it you have a lot less privac on a plane, they're constantly monitored by 2 black boxes and they have multiple GPS systems, and redundant monitoring systems for each sub system of the plane AND they definetly know you're on the plane because you bought a ticket and registered your name to it and you confirmed your presence when you stepped through the gate.
[QUOTE=CjienX;30115508]Because if they weren't, when you get into a head on collision and fly out your windshield, you could sue whoever made the car for not providing sufficient safety equipment.[/QUOTE]
You just missed the point entirely.
You argued that people don't need it - yet you've just claimed to do exactly what the EDR is helping to achieved. Distributing liability to the party it should be placed on.
[QUOTE=Mastotron;30115516]Actually there is incredibly vital data buried in that example specifically, did they brake, and when.
That data could define whether it was an act of murder or just vehicular manslaughter and reckless driving, which defines whether someone gets life in prison or a few years.
This shit is vital data and you being a petulant child over it is just plain stupid, and you can't just go "yeah this was an accident case solved lets go home" You have to go by evidence and a lot of manslaughter charges and crashes have shaky evidence, this clears that up.
And whether you like it or not, cars are gonna start having these as standard and you're just gonna have to cry and bawl, or grow up and accept the fact that this is going to help people when it does happen.
And if cars don't need these then what's the difference between cars and planes? Why not remove these from planes, cause really lets face it you have a lot less privac on a plane, they're constantly monitored by 2 black boxes and they have multiple GPS systems, and redundant monitoring systems for each sub system of the plane AND they definetly know you're on the plane because you bought a ticket and registered your name to it and you confirmed your presence when you stepped through the gate.[/QUOTE]
Residential areas aren't exactly ideal for speeding, you can't just keep a steady high speed. There's a lot of turns that require braking. If you're driving that fast in a residential area, you deserve to be locked up for endangering so many people.
What's fucking pathetic is how you just sit there and let the government shove their giant dildo up your ass and justify it by saying that it's not worth fighting against because you can't change it.
-snip-
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30115535]You just missed the point entirely.[/QUOTE]
No, you're just one of those fucking government loving idiots that think that the government has a right to monitor every aspect of your life for the good of the people.
[QUOTE=CjienX;30115539]What's fucking pathetic is how you just sit there and let the government shove their giant dildo up your ass and justify it by saying that it's not worth fighting against because you can't change it.[/QUOTE]
WHAT?
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30115540]You argued that people don't need it - yet you've just claimed to do exactly what the EDR is helping to achieved. Distributing liability to the party it should be placed on.
[/QUOTE]
You don't need to know all those details to figure out who's guilty. It's an unneeded violation of my privacy at best.
[editline]29th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30115548]WHAT?[/QUOTE]
How is that confusing to you? It's pretty blatant. Your ass are your rights and privacys and the dildo is the governments invasion of said rights and privacys.
[QUOTE=CjienX;30115544]No, you're just one of those fucking government loving idiots that think that the government has a right to monitor every aspect of your life for the good of the people.[/QUOTE]
But they're not monitoring it?
I would thank the Government if they required the use of EDR's in all Australian cars. That way if I'm involved in an accident, it is possible to exactly determine who is at fault in a collision.
[editline]29th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=CjienX;30115552]How is that confusing to you? It's pretty blatant.[/QUOTE]
Because I have no idea what you're on about. That reply made no sense.
People (me included) are against this, but having a tracking system in there would be extremely useful as well. Whenever you have a traffic accident, emergency services could use the GPS to get your exact location without having to do anything. Imagine how many lives will be saved!
Could someone explain to me what this accomplishes that basic common sense couldn't do just as well? The example given just makes it seem like the police are lazy.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30115558]But they're not monitoring it?
I would thank the Government if they required the use of EDR's in all Australian cars. That way if I'm involved in an accident, it is possible to exactly determine who is at fault in a collision.
[editline]29th May 2011[/editline]
Because I have no idea what you're on about. That reply made no sense.[/QUOTE]
YOU. DON'T. NEED. TO. KNOW. ALL. THE. DETAILS. TO. DETERMINE. WHO. IS. AT. FAULT.
[QUOTE=Stopper;30115568]I people (me included) are against this, but having a tracking system in there would be extremely useful as well. Whenever you have a traffic accident, emergency services could use the GPS to get your exact location without having to do anything. Imagine how many lives will be saved![/QUOTE]
Those are already present in most modern vehicles.
I have no problem with it as long as it is an opt out system. Not everyone enjoys being tracked, you see.
I want this to be an optional feature in a car, I don't want the government to FORCE car makers to have these in their cars.
Have a black box in your car? Save $30 for 12 months on your loan as well as your insurance.
That I would be ok with, but if it's something that doesn't save a life, it shouldn't be [i]required[/i]
[QUOTE=CjienX;30115573]YOU. DON'T. NEED. TO. KNOW. ALL. THE. DETAILS. TO. DETERMINE. WHO. IS. AT. FAULT.[/QUOTE]
Are you a crash analysis? The NHTSA makes a determination that the use of an EDR in vehicles allows a more exact determination of liability, yet with all your expertise, you're able to suggest that you don't need to know all the details.
Wonderful. At least now I know you're stupid.
[editline]29th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Stopper;30115568]I people (me included) are against this, but having a tracking system in there would be extremely useful as well. Whenever you have a traffic accident, emergency services could use the GPS to get your exact location without having to do anything. Imagine how many lives will be saved![/QUOTE]
It's not a tracking system though. Locational data is transmitted and is never recorded.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30115589]Are you a crash analysis? The NHTSA makes a determination that the use of an EDR in vehicles allows a more exact determination of liability, yet with all your expertise, you're able to suggest that you don't need to know all the details.
Wonderful. At least now I know you're stupid.[/QUOTE]
Are you? Cause they've been determining who's at fault since the beginning of cars pretty well.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30115589]Are you a crash analysis? The NHTSA makes a determination that the use of an EDR in vehicles allows a more exact determination of liability, yet with all your expertise, you're able to suggest that you don't need to know all the details.
Wonderful. At least now I know you're stupid.
[editline]29th May 2011[/editline]
It's not a tracking system though. Locational data is transmitted and is never recorded.[/QUOTE]
Please, with all your knowledge on the NHTSA, give me an example where this is completely necessary, because the examples already given would have been solved just as easily without this system.
[QUOTE=CjienX;30115598]Are you? Cause they've been determining who's at fault since the beginning of cars pretty well.[/QUOTE]
No I'm not, however I trust the NHTSA's determination of that sentiment (being EDR's help crash / accident analysis).
Fuck ever progressing science, because if we're doing okay now, there's no point in advancing ourselves.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30115609]No I'm not, however I trust the NHTSA's determination of that sentiment (being EDR's help crash / accident analysis).
Fuck ever progressing science, because if we're doing okay now, there's no point in advancing ourselves.[/QUOTE]
Based on what? The guy driving 80 in a 25? Because you totally need this bullshit to determine that he was guilty.
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