A truck ploughs through Christmas market in Berlin
267 replies, posted
[QUOTE=SirJon;51553673]damn you're right, those 9 Christmas fair visitors deserve what they got[/QUOTE]
stop
[QUOTE]seriously though, these terrorist attacks would not happen if not for extremist islam, let's not kid ourselves. as you said, it's an indoctrination tool. that's the problem. no point denying it.[/QUOTE]
If not Islam, then every other social, political or military conflict would be used, "let's not kid ourselves, no point denying it"
[QUOTE=Dolton;51553480]What do you propose we do? Let brown people drown in the Mediterranean? Send them all back to Greece who already is up shit creak? Send them back to Syria where they are fleeing bombs and summary executions? Send them to Siberia? Put crescents on all of their coats to identify them?
If there was a simple easy answer don't you think somebody would have tried it by now? We get that you hate Muslims but that doesn't make them exist any less. They have to go somewhere and screaming about governments being to PeeCee isn't doing much to change that. This is the exact same rhetoric that Americans used to talk about Jews fleeing Europe. Where is the humanity in leaving refugees and migrants out to starve?[/QUOTE]
I didnt know i hate muslims, wow, thanks for letting me know. I learn something new every day i guess. As for letting brown people die in the mediterranean, all im going to say is i saw a few videos of them literally sinking their own boats on purpose so that the coast guard is forced to pick them up, on one particular video they mistook a fishing vessel for a coast guard unit and half of them(or maybe all, it was on open sea and how long can you float on water even if you do know how to swim?) drowned because they didnt know how to swim. I think its pointless for us to care about them more than they do themselves. Call me a racist and xenophobe for it.
[QUOTE=shian;51553501]While its extremely unfortunate 9 lives were lost, more could had been taken had things happened like what happened in Nice. A fuckton of people died when the truck ran through.
I feel that the step up in security helped.
I'm guessing that after trucks are becoming increasingly popular as weapons, more anti vehicle barricades will be set up in the future.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I was 5 meters from the truck in Nice. I have no idea why barricades havent been set up yet or being discussed more. Everyone knew that a second lookalike attack would be coming, given the "success" of the attack in Nice.
And it will far from being the last, until it will become a challenge to do major damage.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;51553696]stop
If not Islam, then every other social, political or military conflict would be used, "let's not kid ourselves, no point denying it"[/QUOTE]
and why would you make that assumption
[QUOTE=DogGunn;51553676]I'm not? What the fuck are you smoking?[/QUOTE]
I think this might be a misunderstanding.
By 'hard Christian right', you mean right-wing nationalist groups that appeal to Christianity without much true consideration for its more 'inconvenient' values, right?
That said, and while they're a problem in Germany for sure, I don't think I've [I]quite[/I] seen anything explicitly in that direction in this thread either.
It blows my mind that we are almost in 2017 and there still people who thinks the fault of these attacks comes from Islam and/or refugees.
Seriously, again and again it has been proved that is such an small amount of people the ones who does that, and that it is long known that these terrorists groups only uses religion as a cover excuse. Not to saying that almost all the muslim population strongly rejects all of this (and how the media fails to show these declarations, often spinning it into the reverse).
And then people seriously believe that denying aid and mass expulsions will magically solve all of our problems. Is not like most of these attackers lived before the mass refugee wave (even nationalized), that they move through legal paths or that they don't give a crap shooting other muslims.
[QUOTE=SirJon;51553716]and why would you make that assumption[/QUOTE]
It's not an assumption, it's a fact. Unless you chose to ignore human history and how conflict has been bred from things far worse than Islam.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;51553744]It's not an assumption, it's a fact. Unless you chose to ignore human history and how conflict has been bred from things far worse than Islam.[/QUOTE]
and based on what do you assume that it's a fact
[QUOTE=Maestro Fenix;51553738]It blows my mind that we are almost in 2017 and there still people who thinks the fault of these attacks comes from Islam and/or refugees.[/QUOTE]
Islam has nothing to do with islamic extremism. You heard it here first folks.
[QUOTE=SirJon;51553673]damn you're right, those 9 Christmas fair visitors deserve what they got
seriously though, these terrorist attacks would not happen if not for [B]extremist[/B] islam, let's not kid ourselves. as you said, it's an indoctrination tool. that's the problem. no point denying it.[/QUOTE][emphasis mine]
Thanks for finally specifying what you meant previously.
I think I can confidently say that I haven't seen a single poster in Sensationalist Headlines in the last year that was defending Islamist extremism.
(Though... I think there may have been one from Saudi Arabia(?) defending extremely questionable authoritarian practices. I don't quite remember what the thread was about, unfortunately.)
[QUOTE=St33m;51553782]Islam has nothing to do with islamic extremism. You heard it here first folks.[/QUOTE]
All of this is falling on deaf ears anyway; the monthly attacks have been going on for what, two years now? And the same old excuses are coming up again and again.
this thread obviously isn't going to get anywhere, just like the last attacks.
jeez guys, both sides are p much not gonna change their opinion, it's gonna be a thousand year argument
sucks stuff like this has to happen in the world. my heart goes out to all of those effected, and the non-extremists who have to be stereotyped because of similar events
[QUOTE=SirJon;51553776]and based on what do you assume that it's a fact[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Unless you chose to ignore human history[/QUOTE]
Personal opinion to kinda fill a grey area
This would have not happened if East and West effectively destabilized the middle east over the last centuries for economical and political reasons and the Islam is a terribly backward and horrible religion that deserves to be eradicated from our history books.
Completely unrelated to extremism and terrorism, it's a terrible religion.
[QUOTE=DMGaina;51553861]Personal opinion to kinda fill a grey area
This would have not happened if East and West effectively destabilized the middle east over the last centuries for economical and political reasons and the Islam is a terribly backward and horrible religion that deserves to be eradicated from our history books.
Completely unrelated to extremism and terrorism, it's a terrible religion.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this.
My position on the rest of what we are seeing in this thread is that to completely separate islam from what happened is just as much of a step too far as saying 'kick out all the refugees', or 'all muslims contribute to terrorism'.
I see people here saying that if there was no such thing as islam, this wouldn't have happened, and that's bullshit. As far as i know you'd be right if you said this has more to do with nationalism, but without the thousand year religious crappery that is islam you couldn't have made ordinary people commit suicide attacks.
[QUOTE=St33m;51553782]Islam has nothing to do with islamic extremism. You heard it here first folks.[/QUOTE]
I'm going to do a little interpretation here because Maestro Fenix's post seems to be a little jumbled (no offence intended), but the main issue here is, I think, that if you want to live in a relatively free democratic society, you can't just apply those values selectively and ignore them for certain benign behaviour, even that behaviour is totally idiosyncratic and foreign to you.
In this specific example, going after Islam as a whole would corrupt our society with just about the same kind of intolerance that the measure would most likely purport to be against (not to mention the amount of resentment it would fuel in people who didn't plan to harm anyone else whatsoever).
[B]It's important to be intolerant against intolerance[/B], but [B]that entails looking closely and taking precise and proportionate measures[/B] instead of taking out the wooden hammer, so to speak. Of course the latter would be way 'easier' in the short run and we wouldn't have to spend much energy thinking about what we consider right or wrong, but at the same time it most likely wouldn't actually solve or even lessen the issue of terrorism.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;51553850]Unless you chose to ignore human history[/QUOTE]
cool zinger but that really doesn't answer the question at all
anyone can say broad undefined stuff like that and pretend it's making a case
[editline]20th December 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Tamschi;51553783][emphasis mine]
Thanks for finally specifying what you meant previously.
I think I can confidently say that I haven't seen a single poster in Sensationalist Headlines in the last year that was defending Islamist extremism.
(Though... I think there may have been one from Saudi Arabia(?) defending extremely questionable authoritarian practices. I don't quite remember what the thread was about, unfortunately.)[/QUOTE]
I mean, obviously I don't think Islam in itself is the problem. I literally share my flat with a Muslim, that's not the problem. But as said before:
[QUOTE=St33m;51553782]Islam has nothing to do with islamic extremism. You heard it here first folks.[/QUOTE]
We can't pretend that Islam isn't connected to the problem of extremist Islam.
[QUOTE=SirJon;51553918]cool zinger but that really doesn't answer the question at all
anyone can say broad undefined stuff like that and pretend it's making a case
[editline]20th December 2016[/editline]
I mean, obviously I don't think Islam in itself is the problem. I literally share my flat with a Muslim, that's not the problem. But as said before:
We can't pretend that Islam isn't connected to the problem of extremist Islam.[/QUOTE]
What's the root of the problem though?
[QUOTE=SirJon;51553918]cool zinger but that really doesn't answer the question at all
anyone can say broad undefined stuff like that and pretend it's making a case[/QUOTE]
You're right about that.
Good luck convincing billions of people to erradicate Islam and if you succeed in doing such, I'll certainly be curious what the next clinging topic will be shoved down everybody's throats then when terrorist attacks continue to happen
[QUOTE=St33m;51553893]I agree with this.
My position on the rest of what we are seeing in this thread is that to completely separate islam from what happened is just as much of a step too far as saying 'kick out all the refugees', or 'all muslims contribute to terrorism'.
I see people here saying that if there was no such thing as islam, this wouldn't have happened, and that's bullshit. As far as i know you'd be right if you said this has more to do with nationalism, but without the thousand year religious crappery that is islam you couldn't have made ordinary people commit suicide attacks.[/QUOTE]I completely agree with your post and I was about to post something very similar.
[QUOTE=Cructo;51553950]yeah but what exactly are you trying to say here ?[/QUOTE]
Whether or not Islam exists, conflict will still be here, like it always has and it's important not to grab onto a certain thing and simplify it thinking getting rid of it will solve something or everything.
Terror groups use Islam to spread terror and it's working marvelously for them, people get paranoid and divisive, resulting them to take sides where both are intolerant of each other breeding this conflict we've been experiencing ignoring how governments continue to feed it for their own self-interest.
[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51553597]Gotta be tolerant towards the absolutely most intolerant.[/QUOTE]
Hmm I don't see anyone saying that we should be tolerant of terrorists or extremists though!
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;51553969]Whether or not Islam exists, conflict will still be here, like it always has and it's important not to grab onto a certain thing and simplify it thinking getting rid of it will solve something or everything.
Terror groups use Islam to spread terror and it's working marvelously for them, people get paranoid and divisive, resulting them to take sides where both are intolerant of each other breeding this conflict we've been experiencing.[/QUOTE]I would like to provide a counter-argument to your claim.
First of all, you are not basing these assumptions on any evidence; you are merely using theoretical scenarios to speculate on the issue.
Secondly, it would be very dishonest and naive to believe that Islam's backward teachings don't play a very major role in these attacks.
Finally, you rarely see any non-Muslim Arabs carrying out such attacks, even though non-Muslims in Arab countries suffer from the same poor conditions as Muslims, yet you rarely see non-Muslims attacking Western society.
Actually, I would argue that non-Muslim Arabs have it much harder here because many Arab countries discriminate against non-Muslims (for example, Saudi Arabia considers all atheists as terrorists, ironically). Yet, you rarely see these non-Muslims carrying out such horrible attacks.
This may sound strange to many of you, but there are a lot of non-Muslims in the middle-east (including myself and my family).
So this means that your speculation is likely to be false.
Actually, I think that there is strong evidence to suggest that if Islam didn't exist, most of these attacks would've never occurred, since, as I mentioned earlier, non-Muslim Arabs rarely commit such awful acts.
[QUOTE=PulseFrog;51554019]Actually, I think that there is strong evidence to suggest that if Islam didn't exist, most of these attacks would've never occurred, since, as I mentioned earlier, non-Muslim Arabs rarely commit such awful acts.[/QUOTE]
yeah, from the beginning I said Islam is a problem I called it a damn indoctrination tool, my entire point is that what's stopping everything else from becoming one too even if Islam didn't exist
if someone's hatred is so forward that they would risk war and death, even if you remove focus on Islam, they'll just focus on something else
[QUOTE=Milkdairy;51553937]What's the root of the problem though?[/QUOTE]
A number of things, it's a number of complex issues that have consequences such as war and terrorism, poverty and refugees, and it's easy to blame it all on Islam but that is a short sighted view.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;51554079]yeah, from the beginning I said Islam is a problem I called it a damn indoctrination tool, my entire point is that what's stopping everything else from becoming one too even if Islam didn't exist[/QUOTE]
Something like say- a dictator-cult would not have the cultural power that islam does. islam especially allows people to attach their nationalistic struggles very easily, because islam is already idolizes nation-building conquerors.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;51554079]yeah, from the beginning I said Islam is a problem I called it a damn indoctrination tool, my entire point is that what's stopping everything else from becoming one too even if Islam didn't exist[/QUOTE]
Other religions that exist here can also be used to indoctrinate people, but they aren't being used in that way because most of them have gone through many reforms throughout the centuries, except for Islam, which hasn't gone through many reforms!
[QUOTE=SirJon;51553918]I mean, obviously I don't think Islam in itself is the problem. I literally share my flat with a Muslim, that's not the problem. But as said before:
[...]
We can't pretend that Islam isn't connected to the problem of extremist Islam.[/QUOTE]
I think I'm finally figuring out what you mean.
Your first posts here were really unclear in my opinion, so I couldn't distinguish them from the (often just about identical) fuzzy rhetoric of the currently largest xenophobic group/party here in Germany.
I think I agree with you for the most part, but generally speaking radicalisation is an issue we're very much aware of here, and that the state and the larger Muslim organisations try to take care of where possible. I usually assume that goes without saying.
It's also true that there are occasionally people who go way too far in fighting against nationalist extremism and then give Muslims too much slack, but they aren't really that common in mainstream politics here in Germany or on Facepunch (since they stopped getting unbanned yearly, at least).
[editline]20th December 2016[/editline]
A press conference was apparently announced for 1PM German time.
Until then, I don't think we'll see much that doesn't come from the Berlin police's twitter. They also tweet in English, [URL="https://twitter.com/PolizeiBerlin_E/status/810996962149408768"]but..[/URL][URL="https://tweetsave.com/polizeiberlin_e/status/810996962149408768"].[/URL]
In any case, here are some updates from them that weren't posted before: [URL="https://tweetsave.com/polizeiberlin_e/status/810979791818080256"][media]https://twitter.com/PolizeiBerlin_E/status/810979791818080256[/media][/URL] [URL="https://tweetsave.com/polizeiberlin_e/status/810982088879067137"][media]https://twitter.com/PolizeiBerlin_E/status/810982088879067137[/media][/URL] [URL="https://tweetsave.com/polizeiberlin_e/status/810987524114018304"][media]https://twitter.com/PolizeiBerlin_E/status/810987524114018304[/media][/URL] [URL="https://tweetsave.com/polizeiberlin_e/status/810988818853675016"][media]https://twitter.com/PolizeiBerlin_E/status/810988818853675016[/media][/URL] [URL="https://tweetsave.com/polizeiberlin_e/status/810989746801508354"][media]https://twitter.com/PolizeiBerlin_E/status/810989746801508354[/media][/URL] [URL="https://tweetsave.com/polizeiberlin_e/status/811001731081388032"][media]https://twitter.com/PolizeiBerlin_E/status/811001731081388032[/media][/URL]
A suspicious item was reported in the Rankestr., but [URL="https://twitter.com/PolizeiBerlin_E/status/810987922576916480"]it turned out to be a sleeping bag[/URL][URL="https://tweetsave.com/polizeiberlin_e/status/810987922576916480"].[/URL]
[editline]edit[/editline] That turned out a bit longer than expected, but it's probably helpful to have the German statements too.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51554362]Reforms are bullshit
...[/QUOTE]
So the people need reforming? :smug:
German media reporting that the arrested suspect is a Pakistani refugee and the attack followed indications several days prior
[url]https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/live160453735/Lkw-Fahrer-soll-als-Fluechtling-ins-Land-gekommen-sein.html[/url]
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