The Yearly Cost of Religious Tax Exemptions in the United States: $71,000,000,000
350 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Lankist;36364966][B]But he's [I]your[/I] Holy Pope. He is, in your words, [I]your leader.[/I] He is tax-exempt because of it, and yet now you admit he is not infallible?[/B] If he is just as human as the rest of us, why does he get special privileges? Why does he deserve a golden throne? Why do you give any more credence to what he says than I, another fellow human being, as human and fallible as he?[/QUOTE]
Implying he said at any point that the Popelyness was perfect.
[QUOTE=Lankist;36364966]But he's [I]your[/I] Holy Pope. He is, in your words, [I]your leader.[/I] He is tax-exempt because of it, and yet now you admit he is not infallible? If he is just as human as the rest of us, why does he get special privileges? Why does he deserve a golden throne?[/QUOTE]
Because he is the most educated in the bible.
The position of Pope belongs to whoever is the most well-versed and most knowledgeable of the bible. That and whoever has the most cleanest record.
But even still, he is not perfect, but neither are we.
[QUOTE=Mrs. Moon;36364977]I'm not even 100% sure on the homosexuality issue. There are a lot of new theories going around about that. Like it is actually not an issue any more, however, a lot of people don't agree and think it is too radical of an idea to accept on a whim. We'll see in the coming years which direction the general opinion goes. Remember, at a time Christians were racists. I have no idea what the reasoning is behind being racist and Christian but it happened somehow. Maybe this will end up being the same thing.[/QUOTE]
A suggestion:
Worry about your own eternal soul and yours alone.
As long as you're here in the earthly realm, why not treat your other earthly neighbors for what they are? If they are caring and compassionate, why not treat them as such regardless of whom they care for most?
Why not permit them the same privileges as you are permitted yourself, and allow your God to do the judging?
After all, this is Earth, not Heaven. This is our world and our time, not his.
[editline]17th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=F T;36364991]The position of Pope belongs to whoever is the most well-versed and most knowledgeable of the bible. That and whoever has the most cleanest record.[/QUOTE]
If Ratzinger has the cleanest record in the entire Vatican, perhaps you have some house-cleaning to do.
I mean, I assume [I]you've[/I] never abetted rapists. Why aren't [I]you[/I] Pope? Does not leading a moral, upright lifestyle qualify as being biblically versed?
[QUOTE=F T;36364991]Because he is the most educated in the bible.
The position of Pope belongs to whoever is the most well-versed and most knowledgeable of the bible. That and whoever has the most cleanest record.
But even still, he is not perfect, but neither are we.[/QUOTE]
Papal infallibility. Look it up.
Kind of an important part of the whole roman catholic thing.
[QUOTE=Lankist;36364995]A suggestion:
Worry about your own eternal soul and yours alone.
As long as you're here in the earthly realm, why not treat your other earthly neighbors for what they are? If they are caring and compassionate, why not treat them as such regardless of whom they care for most?
Why not permit them the same privileges as you are permitted yourself, and allow your God to do the judging?
After all, this is Earth, not Heaven. This is our world and our time, not his.[/quote]
It says in the bible, love your neighbor as you would love yourself.
[QUOTE=Lankist;36364995]If Ratzinger has the cleanest record in the entire Vatican, perhaps you have some house-cleaning to do.[/QUOTE]
The cardinals chose him, not I.
[QUOTE=F T;36365017]It says in the bible, love your neighbor as you would love yourself.[/quote]
So are you in favor of homosexual marriage? As in, marriage recognized by civil law, likely in front of a judge or amidst more progressive protestant sects.
[quote]The cardinals chose him, not I.[/QUOTE]
Get new cardinals. Become a cardinal. Do something, for Christ's sakes. "He's only human" simply isn't enough. Christ was a doer, not a watcher. If you simply stand idly by while your beliefs are eroded by your leadership, what does that say about your faith? It's a terrible thing when the only people faithful enough to take action are the bigots.
[QUOTE=Lankist;36364995]A suggestion:
Worry about your own eternal soul and yours alone.
As long as you're here in the earthly realm, why not treat your other earthly neighbors for what they are? If they are caring and compassionate, why not treat them as such regardless of whom they care for most?
Why not permit them the same privileges as you are permitted yourself, and allow your God to do the judging?
After all, this is Earth, not Heaven. This is our world and our time, not his.
[editline]17th June 2012[/editline]
If Ratzinger has the cleanest record in the entire Vatican, perhaps you have some house-cleaning to do.
I mean, I assume [I]you've[/I] never abetted rapists. Why aren't [I]you[/I] Pope? Does not leading a moral, upright lifestyle qualify as being biblically versed?[/QUOTE]
I do agree. I support gay marriage. Jesus said love your neighbor. He also established the golden rule. Do onto other as you would do onto yourself. I wont call out an atheist "Hey, stop doing that, you're going to Hell if you keep that up" It may be true, but I can't judge that way. That's God's place to judge who gets in and who doesn't. So I think that if a homosexual couple wants to get married, I shouldn't try and stop them. Whether it is a sin or isn't considered one (Under some theology) then I'm not the one to stop them.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;36355121]40% of my Church's donations go to the local homeless shelter, which needs tons of help.[/QUOTE]
And if the people donated directly to the homeless shelter, 100% of the church's donations would go to the homeless shelter.
[QUOTE=Lankist;36365033]So are you in favor of homosexual marriage? As in, marriage recognized by civil law, likely in front of a judge or amidst more progressive protestant sects.[/quote]
I don't think you understand what it meant by "love your neighbor"
It did not mean love as in a passionate love like a couple, but a brotherly love.
[QUOTE=Lankist;36365033]If you simply stand idly by while your beliefs are eroded by your leadership, what does that say about your faith?[/QUOTE]
You mean my religion? It's decaying because we keep sweeping cases like pedophile priests under the carpet.
[QUOTE=Mrs. Moon;36365052]I do agree. I support gay marriage. Jesus said love your neighbor. He also established the golden rule. Do onto other as you would do onto yourself. I wont call out an atheist "Hey, stop doing that, you're going to Hell if you keep that up" It's true, but I can't judge that way. That's God's place to judge who gets in and who doesn't. So I think that if a homosexual couple wants to get married, I shouldn't try and stop them. Whether it is a sin or isn't considered one (Under some theology) then I'm not the one to stop them.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps your God cares less about that sort of thing than your admittedly fallible leaders do?
[QUOTE=Dr Magnusson;36365054]And if the people donated directly to the homeless shelter, 100% of the church's donations would go to the homeless shelter.[/QUOTE]
Churches need some revenue to keep paying bills.
[QUOTE=F T;36365062]I don't think you understand what it meant by "love your neighbor"
It did not mean love as in a passionate love like a couple, but a brotherly love.[/QUOTE]
It was a yes-or-no question.
[editline]17th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mrs. Moon;36365064]Churches need some revenue to keep paying bills.[/QUOTE]
Everyone does.
Churches that make too little profit to pay taxes would not be taxed even under the current tax code.
Churches that make hefty profit will be taxed heavily.
Profit = Revenue - expense/employment costs.
That's why the impoverished class does not pay any taxes, either. They simply cannot afford to. Churches that could not afford to would not be expected to, either.
[QUOTE=Lankist;36365072]It was a yes-or-no question.[/quote]
No, marriage is a religious thing, and many homosexuals I have spoken to about this are rather put off by it.
They recognize marriage is a religious ceremony and they would rather have it legalized just to get the tax benefits of being married.
[QUOTE=Lankist;36365063]Perhaps your God cares less about that sort of thing than your admittedly fallible leaders do?[/QUOTE]
The Pope isn't my leader, I'm not Catholic. Jesus is my leader, I adhere to him, not the Pope. I TRY to fit into what Jesus established as what we as Christians should do. To be Christian is to be a follower of Christ and to do as he did to others. Love them, eat dinner with the "worst" of the people in town (Tax collecters, etc) and try and act as he did. Obviously without trying to heal people and act like God...
[QUOTE=F T;36365088]No, it's a religious thing, and many homosexuals I have spoken to about this are rather put off by it.
They recognize marriage is a religious ceremony and they would rather have it legalized just to get the tax benefits of being married.[/QUOTE]
There are a great many religious homosexuals, you realize.
And there are many more progressive, non-denominational protestant churches in the U.S. which spurn Leviticus' wisdom entirely and openly embrace and welcome homosexuals.
I know a devoutly christian gay couple who would like nothing more than to consummate their love to one another in the eyes of their Lord.
Is it right to deny them that?
[QUOTE=Lankist;36365072]It was a yes-or-no question.
[editline]17th June 2012[/editline]
Everyone does.
Churches that make too little profit to pay taxes would not be taxed even under the current tax code.
Churches that make hefty profit will be taxed heavily.
Profit = Revenue - expense/employment costs.
That's why the impoverished class does not pay any taxes, either. They simply cannot afford to. Churches that could not afford to would not be expected to, either.[/QUOTE]
Well the person I was responding to seemed to be wanting people to not donate to the church at all and rather go straight to the charity. But then that church would crumble without any means to get money to stay operational.
[editline]17th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lankist;36365109]There are a great many religious homosexuals, you realize.
And there are many more progressive, non-denominational protestant churches in the U.S. which spurn Leviticus' wisdom entirely and openly embrace and welcome homosexuals.
I know a devoutly christian gay couple who would like nothing more than to consummate their love to one another in the eyes of their Lord.
Is it right to deny them that?[/QUOTE]
Yes, this is what I was talking about. It's a new way of thinking for the church and many people still aren't so sure about it. I'm not even entirely sure because I wasn't brought up with this way of thinking. Time will only tell what the public opinion turns out to be in the next few years.
[QUOTE=Lankist;36365109]There are a great many religious homosexuals, you realize.
And there are many more progressive, non-denominational protestant churches in the U.S. which spurn Leviticus' wisdom entirely and openly embrace and welcome homosexuals.
I know a devoutly christian gay couple who would like nothing more than to consummate their love to one another in the eyes of their Lord.
Is it right to deny them that?[/QUOTE]
I realize there are many great religious homosexuals.
But when it comes to denying it: is it right? Yes. Is it easy to deny? No.
Marriage was created to be between a man and a woman.
You can be as devout a christian you can be like the couple you mentioned, but it's still a sin.
[QUOTE=Mrs. Moon;36365099]The Pope isn't my leader, I'm not Catholic. Jesus is my leader, I adhere to him, not the Pope. I TRY to fit into what Jesus established as what we as Christians should do. To be Christian is to be a follower of Christ and to do as he did to others. Love them, eat dinner with the "worst" of the people in town (Tax collecters, etc) and try and act as he did. Obviously without trying to heal people and act like God...[/QUOTE]
But you already presumably don't live by the more violent words of Christ (sell your cloak and buy a sword/I come not to bring peace but a sword). Your Jesus is clearly not the same as the Jesus adhered to by others, such as Catholics.
You clearly have a moral sense about you independent of Christ. There are plenty of things Christ didn't forbid completely that you presumably haven't done simply because they're wrong to do to another person. Not-proselytizing is one of them, as you mentioned. Biblical Christ was a big proselytizer, and yet you afford the respect and dignity of others by not preaching their sins to their faces.
So I ask you: Are you worshiping Jesus as a character whom you can disagree with or depart from on occasion, or are you worshiping Jesus as an ideal? Because if you worship the latter, then Jesus can be whomever you want him to be. An idealist's Jesus can welcome homosexuals into matrimony and heaven, he does not have to abide purely by biblical verse penned by man.
[QUOTE=Mrs. Moon;36365099]Love them, eat dinner with the "worst" of the people in town (Tax collecters, etc)[/QUOTE]
What do you have against tax collectors?
[QUOTE=F T;36365138]I realize there are many great religious homosexuals.
But when it comes to denying it: is it right? Yes. Is it easy to deny? No.
Marriage was created to be between a man and a woman.
You can be as devout a christian you can be like the couple you mentioned, but it's still a sin.[/QUOTE]
Actually, marriage was created to be between a man and property. The woman was simply a symbol and part of the dowry. Biblical marriage was a transaction, not a consummation of love.
That sort of thing is no more. Women can choose who they wed. Men and women can divorce and remarry. Modern marriage is about love, not symbols and objects.
Would not a loving God recognize love, in whatever form it takes?
I know that particular couple has a much better view of God than anyone else I've ever met. I mean I still deny his existence and ask whether or not they're crazy people, but it works for them and they don't let it get in the way of what's important in life. They figure, if God is really worth worshiping, he won't begrudge them for being good and caring people. If not, then who cares what he thinks?
Would God really deny something so sincere for the sake of an arbitrary rule? Is he incapable of seeing beyond his own rules?
In the end, either your God is loving and compassionate, in which he wouldn't care what form love takes, or he is a vengeful stickler for his own rules, in which case I don't know why you would worship him.
[QUOTE=Lankist;36365176]Actually, marriage was created to be between a man and property. The woman was simply a symbol and part of the dowry. Biblical marriage was a transaction, not a consummation of love.
That sort of thing is no more. Women can choose who they wed. Men and women can divorce and remarry. Modern marriage is about love, not symbols and objects.
Would not a loving God recognize love, in whatever form it takes?
I know that particular couple has a much better view of God than anyone else I've ever met. I mean I still deny his existence and ask whether or not they're crazy people, but it works for them and they don't let it get in the way of what's important in life.
Would God really deny something so sincere for the sake of an arbitrary rule? Is he incapable of seeing beyond his own rules?[/QUOTE]
God can recognize love, but he can also recognize if it's good or bad. Whether or not he denies it is his decision.
[QUOTE=F T;36365189]God can recognize love, but he can also recognize if it's good or bad. Whether or not he denies it is his decision.[/QUOTE]
How can you call any form of love bad?
Lust which harms an innocent, sure, but love? How can love [I]ever[/I] be a bad thing? Aside from the arbitrary rules against it, what harm has love between two consenting adults ever done on its own? If God were to recant the rules against homosexuality, what harm would pass? I mean, really?
Is that really the kind of God you want to bow down to?
[QUOTE=Lankist;36365191]How can you call any form of love bad?[/QUOTE]
How can [I]I [/I]call it bad? I was talking about God.
But to answer your question anyway, I bring an example: Obsessive love, where the other person does not love back. Can't that be an example of a bad love?
[QUOTE=Lankist;36365141]But you already presumably don't live by the more violent words of Christ (sell your cloak and buy a sword/I come not to bring peace but a sword). Your Jesus is clearly not the same as the Jesus adhered to by others, such as Catholics.
You clearly have a moral sense about you independent of Christ. There are plenty of things Christ didn't forbid completely that you presumably haven't done simply because they're wrong to do to another person. Not-proselytizing is one of them, as you mentioned. Biblical Christ was a big proselytizer, and yet you afford the respect and dignity of others by not preaching their sins to their faces.
So I ask you: Are you worshiping Jesus as a character whom you can disagree with or depart from on occasion, or are you worshiping Jesus as an ideal? Because if you worship the latter, then Jesus can be whomever you want him to be. An idealist's Jesus can welcome homosexuals into matrimony and heaven, he does not have to abide purely by biblical verse penned by man.[/QUOTE]
The sword was a metaphor, you should know Jesus LOVED metaphors...
Yeah, Protestants and Catholics have differing views so that makes sense that we may not always agree on who we believe Jesus or God to be and what is right and what is wrong.
You don't convert people through telling them to their face. How many times have you seen the opposite happen to door-to-door missionaries? Jesus taught, yes, he needed to in order to get his teachings. However, I'm not the one to go around and say "You're an atheist, do you want to convert? if you keep going like this then you will go to hell" That doesn't work. Many people followed Jesus because of his actions, not because of what he said. His words often gave context or reasoning to what he was doing, not setting himself up like a common missionary everybody thinks about. He says that people will know you are my followers by your actions. He doesn't say "GO tell everybody you're a Christian, and then tell them everything they're doing wrong and try and see if they want to convert"
People see somebody who acts differently and they ask "What's up with him? Why doesn't he smoke? Drink? Party?" and I've seen countless people saved that way.
And again, I don't say those things to them because who am I to judge them? Jesus said I should not judge them.
[editline]17th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=PvtCupcakes;36365151]What do you have against tax collectors?[/QUOTE]
In the Bible, people hated them because they all stole from them and treated them unfairly. I don't have issues with them because they are doing their job, however if somebody is abusing their job and stealing, then yeah, I have something against what they are doing.
[QUOTE=Mrs. Moon;36365223]The sword was a metaphor, you should know Jesus LOVED metaphors...[/quote]
Actually, Jesus had quite a thing about his disciples trying to interpret and re-contextualize his words.
[quote]Yeah, Protestants and Catholics have differing views so that makes sense that we may not always agree on who we believe Jesus or God to be and what is right and what is wrong.
You don't convert people through telling them to their face. How many times have you seen the opposite happen to door-to-door missionaries? Jesus taught, yes, he needed to in order to get his teachings. However, I'm not the one to go around and say "You're an atheist, do you want to convert? if you keep going like this then you will go to hell" That doesn't work. Many people followed Jesus because of his actions, not because of what he said. His words often gave context or reasoning to what he was doing, not setting himself up like a common missionary everybody thinks about. He says that people will know you are my followers by your actions. He doesn't say "GO tell everybody you're a Christian, and then tell them everything they're doing wrong and try and see if they want to convert"
People see somebody who acts differently and they ask "What's up with him? Why doesn't he smoke? Drink? Party?" and I've seen countless people saved that way.
And again, I don't say those things to them because who am I to judge them? Jesus said I should not judge them.[/QUOTE]
That's not what I asked, though. Why does [I]your[/I] particular view of Jesus have to be derived from someone else's view? Can you not believe in whichever Jesus you feel is most moral, compassionate and accepting?
[editline]17th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=F T;36365215]How can [I]I [/I]call it bad? I was talking about God.
But to answer your question anyway, I bring an example: Obsessive love, where the other person does not love back. Can't that be an example of a bad love?[/QUOTE]
You removed the part where I said "lust which harms an innocent." That isn't an example of why [I]homosexual[/I] love is bad.
I'm talking about mutual, reciprocated love. How is that ever bad?
Again, you said [I]God[/I] thinks it's bad. Why worship that kind of God? Does he really deserve your reverence with an attitude like that?
A God which imposes such arbitrary, capricious rules is no God at all.
[QUOTE=Lankist;36365191]How can you call any form of love bad?
Lust which harms an innocent, sure, but love? How can love [I]ever[/I] be a bad thing? Aside from the arbitrary rules against it, what harm has love between two consenting adults ever done on its own? If God were to recant the rules against homosexuality, what harm would pass? I mean, really?
Is that really the kind of God you want to bow down to?[/QUOTE]
First of all, the issue of love. Oh boy.
The Bible says God is Love. It also defines love as perfect. Again, I don't know exactly what I believe about homosexuality and marriage and the love between them but I know that TRUE love is perfect because the Bible said so. I don't think many heterosexual couples can call their love perfect because nobody else is perfect besides God.
Again, homosexuality is one of the biggest issues within the church today. To expect a couple of people who aren't even apologetics to answer this issue is absurd, I can only vouch for what I currently am thinking about the issue and admit that my views aren't fully formed yet. Heck, even pastors are rethinking what the Bible currently means towards homosexuals. It might be that, it got grouped in with those other sins that were "Thrown away" earlier. I just don't know yet.
So call me what you will, maybe decide that "Oh, he doesn't really have an idea of what he thinks about gay marriage, he's just completely stupid" or something like that, but in all honesty, every single one of us is still struggling with what exactly we do believe, regardless of the topic.
[QUOTE=Mrs. Moon;36365264]First of all, the issue of love. Oh boy.
The Bible says God is Love. It also defines love as perfect. Again, I don't know exactly what I believe about homosexuality and marriage and the love between them but I know that TRUE love is perfect because the Bible said so.
Again, homosexuality is one of the biggest issues within the church today. To expect a couple of people who aren't even apologetics to answer this is absurd, I can only vouch for what I currently am thinking about the issue and admit that my views aren't fully formed yet.[/QUOTE]
Isn't love more than the interaction of body parts, though?
The only distinction between homosexual and heterosexual love is the earthly body. Is not love a deeper affair than what part goes where? I mean, I'm a hardened atheist, so I don't buy into spirits or eternal souls or anything like that. But for one who is faithful: isn't love a spiritual feeling? Is there really all that much difference between the souls of men and women?
[QUOTE=Lankist;36365245]
You removed the part where I said "lust which harms an innocent." That isn't an example of why [I]homosexual[/I] love is bad.
I'm talking about mutual, reciprocated love. How is that ever bad?
Again, you said [I]God[/I] thinks it's bad. Why worship that kind of God? Does he really deserve your reverence with an attitude like that?
A God which imposes such arbitrary, capricious rules is no God at all.[/QUOTE]
Like I've always said. If just one person goes to hell, I'm going with them.
I'm not into the whole "fuck you, got mine" attitude.
I don't know how people rationalize this. I know I wouldn't be cool with thinking that I'm going to heaven while other people go to hell.
[QUOTE=PvtCupcakes;36365293]Like I've always said. If just one person goes to hell, I'm going with them.
I'm not into the whole "fuck you, got mine" attitude.
I don't know how people rationalize this. I know I wouldn't be cool with thinking that I'm going to heaven while other people go to hell.[/QUOTE]
Honestly if I were religious I'd go for the Klingon religion.
[I]"With fire and steel did the gods forge the Klingon heart. So fiercely did it beat, so loud was the sound, that the gods cried out, 'On this day we have brought forth the strongest heart in all the heavens. None can stand before it without trembling at its strength.' But then the Klingon heart weakened, its steady rhythm faltered and the gods said, 'Why do you weaken so? We have made you the strongest in all of creation.'
And the heart said... 'I am alone.'
And the gods knew that they had erred. So they went back to their forge and brought forth another heart.
But the second heart beat stronger than the first, and the first was jealous of its power. Fortunately, the second heart was tempered by wisdom.
'If we join together, no force can stop us.'
And when the two hearts began to beat together, they filled the heavens with a terrible sound. For the first time, the gods knew fear. They tried to flee, but it was too late. The Klingon hearts destroyed the gods who created them and turned the heavens to ashes. To this very day, no one can oppose the beating of two Klingon hearts." [/I]
Conquer the heavens like a boss.
[QUOTE=Lankist;36365245]
You removed the part where I said "lust which harms an innocent." That isn't an example of why [I]homosexual[/I] love is bad.
I'm talking about mutual, reciprocated love. How is that ever bad?
Again, you said [I]God[/I] thinks it's bad. Why worship that kind of God? Does he really deserve your reverence with an attitude like that?
A God which imposes such arbitrary, capricious rules is no God at all.[/QUOTE]
I didn't remove it, you edited your post after I quoted it.
It doesn't change the fact that you and I have a different understanding of love.
Still, you used a verse in the bible, now it's my turn:
1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, [B]nor homosexuals[/B], nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.