The Yearly Cost of Religious Tax Exemptions in the United States: $71,000,000,000
350 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Marbalo;36355580]I hate to be a dick, but this is nothing but anecdotal evidence that has nothing to do with anything.[/QUOTE]
Oh, okay, so because he has first-hand experience on how not all churches are assholes, we should dismiss it and keep pushing "all churches are assholes" simply because its "anecdotal"?
[QUOTE=DarkSiper;36356075]eh.. priests pay taxes.. I guess there might be ways around it but IRS says they have to.
Also.. going to church is free, sitting down and listening to the priest is free, if you donate its because you want to, donating is not an obligation... so its a free service... article doesn't really put it that way though. the church is not "profiting" its just taking donations, you want your donations taxed then?
Reaction I get from you guys:
churches dont give me money? FUCK CHURCHES THEN DERP[/QUOTE]
churches often profit while maintaining their tax-exempt status.
[quote]Do religions engage in charitable work that addresses the physical needs of the poor? Many do, but that is not their primary focus. Religions are quick to trumpet when they do charitable work—ironically for Christians, since the Bible explicitly says not to (Mathew 6:2). But they don’t do as much charitable work as a lot of people think, and they spend a relatively small percentage of their overall revenue on such work. For instance, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the LDS or Mormon Church), which regularly trumpets its charitable donations, gave about $1 billion to charitable causes between 1985 and 2008. That may seem like a lot until you divide it by the twenty-three-year time span and realize this church is donating only about 0.7 percent of its annual income. Other religions are more charitable. For instance, the United Methodist Church allocated about 29 percent of its revenues to charitable causes in 2010 (about $62 million of $214 million received). One calculation of the resources expended by 271 U.S. congregations found that, on average, “operating expenses” totaled 71 percent of all the expenditures of religions, much of that going to pay ministers’ salaries. Financial contributions addressing the physical needs of the poor fall within the remaining 29 percent of expenditures. While these numbers may be higher as a percentage of income than typical charitable giving by corporations, they are not hugely higher (depending on the religion) and are substantially lower in absolute terms. Wal-Mart, for instance, gives about $1.75 billion in food aid to charities each year, or twenty-eight times all of the money allotted for charity by the United Methodist Church and almost double what the LDS Church has given in the last twenty-five years.[/quote]
not only that, but they still take advantage of public services without contributing any taxes to fund them:
[quote]Michigan, who argued that religions should at least pay their fair share for services like fire protection, streetlights, police, and roads.42 They use those services just like other organizations do.[/quote]
if you read the thread before posting "omg anti-religious people derp lol :P" you might have noticed some of this
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;36355210]My pastor doesn't even take a paycheck. He teaches at a local university on weekdays and refuses to be paid for any work he does at my church.
We biannual "yard sales" in the parking lot of our church. Every six months, every member cleans out the unnecessary junk and stuff they have in their attics, garages, sheds, basements, whatever and we put them out next to our church and run a "yard sale" - except, [B]everything is free[/B]. We do not charge for anything nor do we charge for admission. We get a ton of homeless people coming in and getting the free clothes. We also give out food. Last year, a few people donated furniture and we gave that stuff away for free as well.
This winter we're opening up a soup kitchen in our fellowship hall.
I could name a few other free and charitable things we do as well for the community.
Our church motto is, "Don't go to church, be the church".
I hate the sweeping generalizations here that churches are inherently evil and money grubbing. Yes there are a few and most of the time it's the big thousand-membered churches. But not all of them are like that.
Edit:
I should also note, we're doing all of this while we're breaking away from the main Presbyterian church of the US because of their money grubbing attitude toward us. They kept saying we need to pay these thousands in "dues" to them. Now that we're breaking away, they want our church building and property because they're claiming it as theirs - unless we pay $50,000 of money we don't have.[/QUOTE]
This is great and all, but why not fund/tax exempt completely secular organizations which do the same thing? Then you'll know exactly how all the money is spent.
Why does it have to be a church that does charity.
A little late for my opinion, but here it is.
Personally, being an atheist, I think that the church should be as transparent with it's money spending as possible. That means that all of the charities that it helps fund should be looked at and monitored as closely as anything else, and that there should probably be a few other laws put in place to regulate.
Other than that, I don't see much of an issue with a church not being taxed, as long as it gives it's proceeds to charitable, underfunded, and needed organizations. The money that we would get off of taxing them wouldn't be very helpful in the grand scheme of things, and it can be put to better use locally, rather than by the government who would have it disappear in a heartbeat.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;36356145]Dont play dumb.
Also NASA is responsible for far more than you actually imagine. It was leading the world with technology along with its Soviet counterparts - which was in turn stimulating the economy by motivating many young minds to actually indulge in space, technology and all that stuff. It was making people understand that space is exciting, and science is exciting.
This gave students the motivation to succeed. To innovate. To explore. And when you have a population that's willing to learn, you have have economic success and progression.
I suggest you go listen to Neil Degrasse Tyson's speeches.[/QUOTE]
That isn't going to put food on someone's plate you know.
You know whats exciting? Being able to pay for your montly stuff without having to cry yourself to sleep thinking what the hell are you gonna eat tomorrow with a few dollars.
[QUOTE=valkery;36356378]A little late for my opinion, but here it is.
Personally, being an atheist, I think that the church should be as transparent with it's money spending as possible. That means that all of the charities that it helps fund should be looked at and monitored as closely as anything else, and that there should probably be a few other laws put in place to regulate.
Other than that, I don't see much of an issue with a church not being taxed, as long as it gives it's proceeds to charitable, underfunded, and needed organizations. The money that we would get off of taxing them wouldn't be very helpful in the grand scheme of things, and it can be put to better use locally, rather than by the government who would have it disappear in a heartbeat.[/QUOTE]
$70bn isn't much in the grand scheme of things?
the US Department of Education's budget in 2011 was $69.9bn [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Education#Budget][1][/url], what about doubling the education budget, that seems pretty helpful
[editline]16th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=dass;36356411]That isn't going to put food on someone's plate you know.[/QUOTE]
there are a lot of things that don't put food on people's plates, that still serve a very important purpose
scientific advancement and research seems like a valid investment for what is supposed to be a first world nation
[QUOTE=Kopimi;36356318]churches often profit while maintaining their tax-exempt status.
not only that, but they still take advantage of public services without contributing any taxes to fund them:
if you read the thread before posting "omg anti-religious people derp lol :P" you might have noticed some of this[/QUOTE]
I read the article, who are you to say how churches should spend their money? It is donations from the churches community, not your money. Also, doesn't everyone who "form" the church pay income taxes? The people make up the church. Also, as for property taxes, church is exempt from paying taxes, its in the constitution and it is their right.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;36356422]there are a lot of things that don't put food on people's plates, that still serve a very important purpose
scientific advancement and research seems like a valid investment for what is supposed to be a first world nation[/QUOTE]
I think that flies off the table when a country is in such a deep hole like America is.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;36356422]$70bn isn't much in the grand scheme of things?
the US Department of Education's budget in 2011 was $69.9bn [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Education#Budget][1][/url], what about doubling the education budget, that seems pretty helpful[/QUOTE]
But those funds wouldn't be lumped into one thing. It would be spread out so much over so many departments that it would have next to no impact. 70 billion is truly a fuckton of cash, but just look at how many federal agencies there are that would probably all get a chunk of that change:[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_federal_agencies[/url]
[QUOTE=DarkSiper;36356075]eh.. priests pay taxes.. I guess there might be ways around it but IRS says they have to.
Also.. going to church is free, sitting down and listening to the priest is free, if you donate its because you want to, donating is not an obligation... so its a free service... article doesn't really put it that way though. the church is not "profiting" its just taking donations, you want your donations taxed then?
Reaction I get from you guys:
churches dont give me money? FUCK CHURCHES THEN DERP[/QUOTE]
Have you ever heard about a tithe
[QUOTE=rilez;36356322]This is great and all, but why not fund/tax exempt completely secular organizations which do the same thing? Then you'll know exactly how all the money is spent.
Why does it have to be a church that does charity.[/QUOTE]
I thought secular organisations that did that kind of stuff were tax exempt.
separation of churchandstate
separation of churchandstate
fuck it's not working.
[QUOTE=AJisAwesome15;36355187]All aboard the religion hate bandwagon[/QUOTE]
did any of you tools even read the article? Or at least half of it?
[QUOTE=valkery;36356378]A little late for my opinion, but here it is.
Personally, being an atheist, I think that the church should be as transparent with it's money spending as possible. That means that all of the charities that it helps fund should be looked at and monitored as closely as anything else, and that there should probably be a few other laws put in place to regulate.
Other than that, I don't see much of an issue with a church not being taxed, as long as it gives it's proceeds to charitable, underfunded, and needed organizations. The money that we would get off of taxing them wouldn't be very helpful in the grand scheme of things, and it can be put to better use locally, rather than by the government who would have it disappear in a heartbeat.[/QUOTE]
This is $70 billion per year, after 10 years you have $700 billion, after 20, $1.4 trillion, in the grand scheme of a government, 20 years is nothing and getting an additional $1.4 trillion dollars is pretty cool
The first thing I learned in my General Business course at college was, "Non-profit organization does not mean it is not allowed nor does not make, a profit."
[QUOTE=rilez;36356322]This is great and all, but why not fund/tax exempt completely secular organizations which do the same thing? Then you'll know exactly how all the money is spent.
Why does it have to be a church that does charity.[/QUOTE]
I never said secular organizations that do the same shouldn't be tax exempt.
[QUOTE=valkery;36356477]But those funds wouldn't be lumped into one thing. It would be spread out so much over so many departments that it would have next to no impact. 70 billion is truly a fuckton of cash, but just look at how many federal agencies there are that would probably all get a chunk of that change:[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_federal_agencies[/url][/QUOTE]
so by that logic we just shouldn't really be giving the government any money, it doesn't really matter how much funds we can raise and put somewhere useful because you instantly assume it'll be dithered around the alphabet agencies. instead we should grant churches an exemption from taxes that everyone else pays so they can [B]hopefully[/B] donate some of it and pocket the rest. well, not to mention the fact that the hundreds of thousands of churches across the country that are generating this revenue would piss this money away into a million different charities just like the govt would with random agencies, so in the end i guess it doesn't really matter where the money goes since it'll just be distributed across a massive pool of destinations.
[QUOTE=DarkSiper;36356458]I read the article, who are you to say how churches should spend their money? It is donations from the churches community, not your money. Also, doesn't everyone who "form" the church pay income taxes? The people make up the church. Also, as for property taxes, church is exempt from paying taxes, its in the constitution and it is their right.[/QUOTE]
literally everything about this is wrong, it doesn't even need explaining
[editline]16th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=dass;36356468]I think that flies off the table when a country is in such a deep hole like America is.[/QUOTE]
yeah i think you're seriously overestimating how big a hole america is in, not to mention seeing things in the most simplistic, black and white way possible. there wouldn't be food to [I]put[/I] on the table without a developed society to inspire and employ
[QUOTE=flagdog;36354580]How about we take these 71 billion dollars...
...And move them to the NASA![/QUOTE]
How about we take half of it?
Guess I'm going to have to take the position of the often-hated apologist here and say I am neither surprised nor do I want everything taken away. Reduce the cost, absolutely, but they shouldn't have to be self-funded. It shouldn't cost money to keep up a belief. I'd [I]love[/I] that money spent on Nasa, sure, but you can't compare religious organizations with normal ones. Many -- though far from all Facepunchers lack perspective in this case.
[QUOTE=mac338;36356637]How about we take half of it?
Guess I'm going to have to take the position of the often-hated apologist here and say I am neither surprised nor do I want everything taken away. Reduce the cost, absolutely, but they shouldn't have to be self-funded. It shouldn't cost money to keep up a belief. I'd [I]love[/I] that money spent on Nasa, sure, but you can't compare religious organizations with normal ones. Many -- though far from all Facepunchers lack perspective in this case.[/QUOTE]
have you ever seen a mega church? Or that house that pastor had? These aren't your small little churches in a meadow or something
[editline]16th June 2012[/editline]
did you know that the LDS church payed for most of Prop 8's fundings? Did you know allot of these churches have millions in their bank accounts?
[QUOTE=The Baconator;36356724]have you ever seen a mega church? Or that house that pastor had? These aren't your small little churches in a meadow or something[/QUOTE]
But the vast majority are. Just because one person abuses the system doesn't mean that every single person who uses the system also needs to be punished. Punish the people who abused the system, and if it is feasible, fix the system so that it is harder to abuse, it's as simple as that.
[QUOTE=valkery;36356755]But the vast majority are. Just because one person abuses the system doesn't mean that every single person who uses the system also needs to be punished. Punish the people who abused the system, and if it is feasible, fix the system so that it is harder to abuse, it's as simple as that.[/QUOTE]
That, and also what I was saying was reduce the budget a bit, just don't remove it.
227 dollars per american citizen (as of Q4 2011)
[QUOTE=latin_geek;36356907]227 dollars per american citizen (as of Q4 2011)[/QUOTE]
Seems logical when close to 90% of Americans are religious.
[QUOTE=S31-Syntax;36356080]Oh, okay, so because he has first-hand experience on how not all churches are assholes, we should dismiss it and keep pushing "all churches are assholes" simply because its "anecdotal"?[/QUOTE]
I have anecdotal evidence you murdered JFK.
If we could stick to facts, that'd be lovely.
[QUOTE=DarkSiper;36356458]I read the article, who are you to say how churches should spend their money? It is donations from the churches community, not your money. Also, doesn't everyone who "form" the church pay income taxes? The people make up the church. Also, as for property taxes, church is exempt from paying taxes, its in the constitution and it is their right.[/QUOTE]
You don't actually understand how taxes work in this country, you're just going OMG QUIT HATIN TEH CHURCHES. Calm down and read a book.
[QUOTE=SatansSin;36354632]71 billion dollars
seriously? what the fuck
To think that the money can go to NASA or something to help propel ourselves into space, and make a colonization of some sort... Would be amazing.[/QUOTE]
There is no happily habitable place outside of earth.
I mean, yes we can build enclosures, but eventually this will happen:
[img]http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs4/3391219_o.gif[/img]
Tbh dont know where to start.
How about the fact that not taking money is not the same as it costs money.
dont believe me? fine send me 40 bucks- What you dontwanna? FUUU stop costing me money!
Or i could point out you could reduce religious institutions budget all you want- by not donating to them. Stop trying to tell me what i should be spending my money on, if i want to give all my cash to mormons or whomever- then i will- who are you to say i cant.
Think you can do a better job at charity then religious institutions? This is me, over here, not stopping you. Feel free to apply for tax exempt status (protip you dont have to be a religious institution) and do your best at whatever you wish.
Fake edit- liberals who think all money everywhere should be theirs to do as they please make me sick. Do whatever you want with your money. If you spent half the time earning money instead of thinking of ways to leach off of others you could fund a space shuttle mission to alpha centauri by now.
Fake fake edit- those who post that "you are wrong but i cant be bothered to explain why" lack the intelligence needed to constructively argue their point
[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;36357204]Tbh dont know where to start.[/QUOTE]
Nice gimmick account bro.
[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;36357204]Fake fake edit- those who post that "you are wrong but i cant be bothered to explain why" lack the intelligence needed to constructively argue their point[/QUOTE]
"Frogs contribute to our GDP by way of side-twirling their fine egyptian fire moustaches. If you take issue with this prove how I'm wrong."
Sometimes a person says something wrong, and it's wrong, and you can explain why it's wrong. Other times, a person says something which is not even wrong, just gibberish. You cannot explain the flaws in these statements because they are generated by a complete lack of understanding of a concept. I can't tell you why 2 + 2 =/= Pirates! if you don't actually know what any of that means.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;36357530]Nice gimmick account bro.[/QUOTE]
Like the name? been reading facepunch for a few weeks now, felt it was time to start telling ppl why theyre wrong- so i registered
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;36357530]"Frogs contribute to our GDP by way of side-twirling their fine egyptian fire moustaches. If you take issue with this prove how I'm wrong."[/QUOTE]
Easy, frogs dont contribute in that way to the GDP as evidenced by the lack of proof that they do.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;36357530]Sometimes a person says something wrong, and it's wrong, and you can explain why it's wrong. Other times, a person says something which is not even wrong, just gibberish. You cannot explain the flaws in these statements because they are generated by a complete lack of understanding of a concept. I can't tell you why 2 + 2 =/= Pirates! if you don't actually know what any of that means.[/QUOTE]
Stop pretending this is deep, earth shattering, thick book stuff. Its not- you could explain your position fairly easily if you wished. You just dont wish to.
I believe the money donated to the church that is used for charitable events that the church has going on should be tax free, just as any money you give to a charitable organization to is tax free. However, money given to the church employees should be taxed just like any other employee. Sounds like a free compromise to me.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;36355210]My pastor doesn't even take a paycheck. He teaches at a local university on weekdays and refuses to be paid for any work he does at my church.
We biannual "yard sales" in the parking lot of our church. Every six months, every member cleans out the unnecessary junk and stuff they have in their attics, garages, sheds, basements, whatever and we put them out next to our church and run a "yard sale" - except, [B]everything is free[/B]. We do not charge for anything nor do we charge for admission. We get a ton of homeless people coming in and getting the free clothes. We also give out food. Last year, a few people donated furniture and we gave that stuff away for free as well.
This winter we're opening up a soup kitchen in our fellowship hall.
I could name a few other free and charitable things we do as well for the community.
Our church motto is, "Don't go to church, be the church".
I hate the sweeping generalizations here that churches are inherently evil and money grubbing. Yes there are a few and most of the time it's the big thousand-membered churches. But not all of them are like that.
Edit:
I should also note, we're doing all of this while we're breaking away from the main Presbyterian church of the US because of their money grubbing attitude toward us. They kept saying we need to pay these thousands in "dues" to them. Now that we're breaking away, they want our church building and property because they're claiming it as theirs - unless we pay $50,000 of money we don't have.[/QUOTE]
now i like your church, that's the spirit of giving then taking.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.