The Yearly Cost of Religious Tax Exemptions in the United States: $71,000,000,000
350 replies, posted
Ok guys if you feel so strongly about this then petition your congressmen.
EDIT:
How is this dumb?
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;36356576]The first thing I learned in my General Business course at college was, "Non-profit organization does not mean it is not allowed nor does not make, a profit."[/QUOTE]
Uhh if they make a profit they can afford to be taxed.
[editline]16th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;36357204]How about the fact that not taking money is not the same as it costs money.[/QUOTE]
In terms of taxes, it [I]is.[/I]
If you refuse to pay your taxes, you go to fucking jail for tax evasion.
[QUOTE=AJisAwesome15;36355187]All aboard the religion hate bandwagon[/QUOTE]
yeah look at all these valid points
clearly just bandwagoning!
[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;36357648]Stop pretending this is deep, earth shattering, thick book stuff.[/QUOTE]
I'm not calling it complex, I'm calling you incompetent.
[QUOTE=The golden;36357985]The people who complain about atheist band-wagoners are actually getting more annoying than the actual atheists themselves.[/QUOTE]
[url=http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/]Not quite yet[/url]
[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;36357648]Like the name? been reading facepunch for a few weeks now, felt it was time to start telling ppl why theyre wrong- so i registered
Easy, frogs dont contribute in that way to the GDP as evidenced by the lack of proof that they do.
Stop pretending this is deep, earth shattering, thick book stuff. Its not- you could explain your position fairly easily if you wished. You just dont wish to.[/QUOTE]
the reason i didn't explain why DarkSiper's post was wrong is because it was literally so far from the truth i figured nobody would actually need a rebuttal, they would just read the post, think "lmao is he serious" and keep scrolling. since clearly you somehow lack the ability to figure out why he's dead wrong:
[QUOTE=DarkSiper;36356458]I read the article, who are you to say how churches should spend their money? It is donations from the churches community, not your money.[/quote]
if i gather a bunch of people in my basement on sundays and they donate 10,000 to me, i have to report that as income, and pay tax on it. it's my money, who is the government to say what to do with it? oh right, it's the government, and they need to collect taxes to sustain any form of a civilized country. so if i'm getting taxed, why are the churches exempt just because they put a statue of a dead dude nailed to some wood on the front lawn?
[QUOTE=DarkSiper;36356458]Also, doesn't everyone who "form" the church pay income taxes? The people make up the church.[/quote]
that isn't how taxes work. if i'm running a business, my business has to pay tax, AND i have to pay tax personally. just because a bunch of people who are essentially customers of the church pay taxes on their own doesn't mean the church is accounted for
[QUOTE=DarkSiper;36356458]Also, as for property taxes, church is exempt from paying taxes, its in the constitution and it is their right.[/QUOTE]
no.. the constitution says:
[quote]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[/quote]
i.e. the church [B]doesn't[/B] get special treatment. it is no different from any other business, any other person/group/entity/organization, etc.. i don't know where you got "exempt from taxes" in there, because i'm not seeing it
i love it when people say "it's in the constitution" but fail to mention where.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;36358027]if i gather a bunch of people in my basement on sundays and they donate 10,000 to me, i have to report that as income, and pay tax on it. it's my money, who is the government to say what to do with it? oh right, it's the government, and they need to collect taxes to sustain any form of a civilized country. so if i'm getting taxed, why are the churches exempt just because they put a statue of a dead dude nailed to some wood on the front lawn?[/QUOTE]
You literally could gather in your basement with your supporters, and collect money- and bank it tax free (assuming you filled out the appropriate paperwork and qualified for tax exempt status)
Of course in this hypothetical instance you would be representing the organization for which you are seeking donations.
Assuming that you have no such desire, you are taxed as a citizen. Religion itself, is not a citizen. It is an abstract concept, an idea, an organization if you will.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;36358027]that isn't how taxes work. if i'm running a business, my business has to pay tax, AND i have to pay tax personally. just because a bunch of people who are essentially customers of the church pay taxes on their own doesn't mean the church is accounted for[/QUOTE]
Religious institutions are in no way a "business". They do not produce (for sale) goods and/or services. You could make an argument that its ran like a business, or that ministers do X for money, and several other avenues of thought. But the fact remains- even the federal gov recognizes that such institutions are not a business.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;36358027]
no.. the constitution says:
i.e. the church [B]doesn't[/B] get special treatment. it is no different from any other business, any other person/group/entity/organization, etc.. i don't know where you got "exempt from taxes" in there, because i'm not seeing it[/QUOTE]
Shamelessly stolen from elsewhere.....
First, tax exemption for churches has helped a pluralistic society in which a broad spectrum of religious perspectives -- including irreligion -- can flourish. Such pluralism safeguards against extremism and should be maintained.
Second, taxing church property and income would destroy the free exercise of religion that the Bill of Rights seeks to protect. The old principle that the power to tax is the power to destroy is still valid. In regard to taxing door-to-door religious solicitation, the court held in Murdock v. Pennsylvania in 1943:
The power to tax the exercise of a privilege is the power to control or suppress its enjoyment. . . . Those who can tax the exercise of this religious practice can make its exercise so costly as to deprive it of the resources necessary for its maintenance.
The power to tax religious institutions must be construed as the power to limit the free exercise of religion. Levying property taxes upon churches would have the effect of closing the doors of thousands of small congregations that operate on a shoestring. Many downtown churches would be forced out by the property taxes on their valuable land, and their buildings would be replaced by high-rise office complexes.
A third reason for not taxing church property is the excessive government entanglement that such taxation would bring. What agency would be responsible for assessing the value of the property, and how would the value be calculated? To what extent will the government require inspection of church property and, in the process, its records? These are but a few areas of church-state entanglement that would come with church property taxes. Of course, with government intervention comes government regulation, which could extend into many aspects of church life. Such entanglement must be viewed as unconstitutional.
full paper can be found here [url]http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1030[/url] , and in fact theorizes that it could be taxed in the future. Downside to a living document i suppose, its open to the interpretation of the current generation
Aside from all this, i maintain that a tax on religious organizations would be punitive in nature. Simply taking from those you dont agree with while justifying that action with vague theories on how the money would be better spent in ways you agree with.
[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;36358464]full paper can be found here [url]http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1030[/url][/QUOTE]
Wow what an unbiased source with absolutely no personal stake in the issue.
[editline]16th June 2012[/editline]
FYI that paper is wrong. The 71 billion dollar number is does not qualify as destructive taxation. That number is derived from applying [I]normal, non-destructive tax rates[/I] to churches.
[editline]16th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;36358464]Aside from all this, i maintain that a tax on religious organizations would be punitive in nature. Simply taking from those you dont agree with while justifying that action with vague theories on how the money would be better spent in ways you agree with.[/QUOTE]
hello persecution complex its been a long time.
Nobody gives a fuck what you worship. The only issue is that you aren't contributing to society.
[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;36358464]You literally could gather in your basement with your supporters, and collect money- and bank it tax free (assuming you filled out the appropriate paperwork and qualified for tax exempt status)
Of course in this hypothetical instance you would be representing the organization for which you are seeking donations.
Assuming that you have no such desire, you are taxed as a citizen. Religion itself, is not a citizen. It is an abstract concept, an idea, an organization if you will.[/QUOTE]
Abstract concepts don't use funding, since they're abstract concepts. That doesn't address:
[QUOTE]so if i'm getting taxed, why are the churches exempt just because they put a statue of a dead dude nailed to some wood on the front lawn?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;36358464]Religious institutions are in no way a "business". They do not produce (for sale) goods and/or services. You could make an argument that its ran like a business, or that ministers do X for money, and several other avenues of thought. But the fact remains- even the federal gov recognizes that such institutions are not a business.[/QUOTE]
Read the OP.
Also, get out of your head the idea that what the government considers something defines what the thing is. The government is sometimes... wait for it... [I]wrong.[/I]
[video=youtube;AeFZ_PnckMY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeFZ_PnckMY[/video]
[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;36358464]Shamelessly stolen from elsewhere.....[/QUOTE]
Lankist has that covered so w/e.
[QUOTE=Zambies!;36358023][url=http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/]Not quite yet[/url][/QUOTE]
That's reddit. The reddit on nearly everything is shitty, so it doesn't count.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;36355121]40% of my Church's donations go to the local homeless shelter, which needs tons of help.[/QUOTE]
Then how about we take a billion more out of the church and put it towards fixing shelters
[QUOTE=dass;36356061]I'm not the one in debt btw.
And I'm pretty sure the money sinked to build their toys could be put to better use.
I mean, for fuck sakes, theres people in actual need of some fucking help, yet that money is going to a bunch of people who want to find out that there is YET another planet they can't reach in their lifetime.[/QUOTE]
or we can figure out a way to get an asteroid into orbit around the earth, mine it dry, and shoot it off into the sun, rinse, and repeat, asteroids are far more densely packed with useful minerals and metals then the earth is, and it would be far more environmentally friendly, it would yield far greater ton/hour then current mining, and we can gather some minerals that just cant be found in useful quantities on earth
[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;36358464]Simply taking from those you dont agree with while justifying that action with vague theories on how the money would be better spent in ways you agree with.[/QUOTE]
But taking from everyone else who we may agree with for the money to be spent in ways we may not agree with is perfectly fine? You're delusional.
Fuck this is a dumb fucking thread. Seriously guys? It shouldn't require explanation as to why a force with as much influence as most political entities that spend millions to be that way, to imagine that the church somehow is above petty, earthly things like money and taxes... Fuck. It's just pure naïveté. Religion is not at all beyond the rules of the society around it so why we let them occupy such an obvious position of power and don't think anything but the best will come from it is a fucking mystery to me.
As a member of a church, I really think we [B]shouldn't[/B] be tax exempt.
Jesus himself said to render the physical to Caesar and give the spiritual to God.
To understand why we are tax exempt, you must understand that at one point the church had a say in government. After a few years, we gave up our say to be exempt from taxes in an attempt to bring in more church members.
I would rather be able to have an influence on our government and pay through the ass with taxes rather than to be told to sit down just to keep extra money in my pocket.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;36356583]What
You do realize that economic progression and success = food on the table, right?
How could you [I]not [/I]make that connection, do I really have to spell it out for you[/QUOTE]
And thats working pretty well isn't it?
I know so many people who don't even practice a religion but when they file their taxes they say they donate $500 to the church yearly LOL
I'm an atheist, I don't agree with most religion. I understand and agree that religious freedom should be maintained. But large scale churches do not need tax exemptions only the smaller ones that really can't stand on their own. Also I like how the one posters church does a free yard sale. That's the kinda churches the America's needs.
[QUOTE=DesolateGrun;36358824]Then how about we take a billion more out of the church and put it towards fixing shelters[/QUOTE]
Yes, because let's add one more step in between the problem and the solution.
[QUOTE=DuCT;36361657]Yes, because let's add one more step in between the problem and the solution.[/QUOTE]
that "one more step" actually ensure the step is taken, rather than giving churches the opportunity to spend that tax-free money on shit like this:
[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GdfBu4lyGyA/TaQQJ3VG1iI/AAAAAAAAKkQ/vEaZV_BRZp8/s640/pope-throne.jpg[/img]
You can't be a "charitable organization" when you spend more money building shit for yourself (like megachurches and evangelical bullshit) than building shit for charitable causes.
If the current tax code were applied to churches, it would [I]only[/I] tax churches that could afford to be taxed. That's how the tax code works. If you make more money, you pay more taxes. If you make less money, you pay less taxes.
[QUOTE=Lankist;36361717]that "one more step" actually ensure the step is taken, rather than giving churches the opportunity to spend that tax-free money on shit like this:
[IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GdfBu4lyGyA/TaQQJ3VG1iI/AAAAAAAAKkQ/vEaZV_BRZp8/s640/pope-throne.jpg[/IMG]
You can't be a "charitable organization" when you spend more money building shit for yourself (like megachurches and evangelical bullshit) than building shit for charitable causes.
If the current tax code were applied to churches, it would [I]only[/I] tax churches that could afford to be taxed. That's how the tax code works. If you make more money, you pay more taxes. If you make less money, you pay less taxes.[/QUOTE]
Explain to me how the Pope's throne is a product of savings from churches?
[QUOTE=F T;36362978]Explain to me how the Pope's throne is a product of savings from churches?[/QUOTE]
it's an extravagant, decadent and expensive place for some old man to rest his backside on after a long day of misguiding millions of people, purchased with money that could have gone to charities, the community, etc..
[QUOTE=Kopimi;36363014]it's an extravagant, decadent and expensive place for some old man to rest his backside on after a long day of misguiding millions of people, purchased with money that could have gone to charities, the community, etc..[/QUOTE]
Well, this "old man" just happens to be the Holy Pope. I cannot understand why you would say he misguides people when all does is bring us closer to world peace.
And besides, that is made with the Vatican's money, not american churches.
[QUOTE=F T;36363045]Well, this "old man" just happens to be the Holy Pope.[/QUOTE]
I don't care if he's the goddamn king of england. He's not running a charity with an entire city engraved in gold. That's called a racket, and it gets taxed.
Charities don't build themselves thrones. Charities don't build churches the size of fucking shopping malls, as many religious sects do here in the U.S. Charities don't run shit like the 700 Club, begging for money to "stay on the air" and to continue to "spread the word." Charities don't take money solely to perpetuate their own existence, and they contribute a hell of a lot fucking more to society than honeyed words and bibles.
If they want to spend their money like that, it gets fucking taxed.
[QUOTE=Lankist;36363309]I don't care if he's the goddamn king of england. He's not running a charity with an entire city engraved in gold. That's called a racket, and it gets taxed.
Charities don't build themselves thrones. Charities don't build churches the size of fucking shopping malls.
If they want to spend their money like that, it gets fucking taxed.[/QUOTE]
He gets the throne because he is the leader of the Roman Catholic Church, just as much as the president gets the White House because he is the leader of a nation.
If I understand you correctly, then should we take away the white house from the president all because he doesn't run a charity?
[QUOTE=F T;36363359]He gets the throne because he is the leader of the Roman Catholic Church, just as much as the president gets the White House because he is the leader of a nation.[/QUOTE]
People who run charities do not make themselves thrones and titles.
Also, the President pays taxes on his income. So no, he gets to keep the big house, because he fucking pays his taxes. And the fact that you're comparing a fucking religious leader to a political leader in government proves you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
If you think the god damn pope deserves as much deference as a king or a president, you are simply delusional and you belong in the 16th century.
Fuck the Pope. He is no leader. He is a fraud and a con-artist.
[QUOTE=ironman17;36355213]$71 BILLION?! Well, to hell with the white-haired dude; scrapping religious tax exemptions could help get the American economy stable again. So many other things need the money; societies that help people should get a good cut from this, plus a fair share of the coin being given to scientific research. (not for the defense budget; they can go to hell)[/QUOTE]
I don't agree with their tax exempt status, but how is the government taking money from them going to get the economy going?
[QUOTE=Ridge;36363413]I don't agree with their tax exempt status, but how is the government taking money from them going to get the economy going?[/QUOTE]
Build surplus.
Reduce debt.
Invest.
Increase GDP.
[QUOTE=Lankist;36363380]People who run charities do not make themselves thrones and titles.
Also, the President pays taxes on his income. So no, he gets to keep the big house, because he fucking pays his taxes. And the fact that you're comparing a fucking religious leader to a political leader in government proves you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
If you think the god damn pope deserves as much deference as a king or a president, you are simply delusional and you belong in the 16th century.
Fuck the Pope. He is no leader. He is a fraud and a con-artist.[/QUOTE]
I like how you call me delusional because I think the Pope deserves what he gets. I know what im talking about, but I don't think you understand my reasoning behind it.
I'm a catholic, and we see the Pope as if he really is a political leader. Whether or not you think I am delusional is your opinion.
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