• House Committee Votes to Require Women to Register for Draft
    297 replies, posted
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50216941]Would you have held it against me if I refused the draft to join the Vietnam War?[/QUOTE] With knowledge of the Vietnam War now, no. There's no way of telling how I'd think during that time.
[QUOTE=Richoxen;50216934]I agreed that it should be used as a defensive tool so I don't know what you're on about.[/QUOTE] Sorry I missed that, my bad.
[QUOTE=exhale77;50216937]On what criteria are you gauging relative physical and/or mental "weakness"?[/QUOTE] waterboi admitted he was physically and mentally weak so I think that's all the gauge he needs.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50216940]So the country shoots you in the foot(metaphorically) and you should stand by it? So you disown all former servicemen who have disowned your point of view because of their mistreatment? You don't understand the mindset of the vets from Vietnam?[/QUOTE] I would like to add onto this and say that this can move dangerously close to the Nuremberg defense. When you follow your country's orders without looking at your personal morality, you can let a lot of dangerous things happen and destroy yourself (mentally) in the process. "Just following orders" is not a good quality to me. [editline]27th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Richoxen;50216946]waterboi admitted he was physically and mentally weak so I think that's all the gauge he needs.[/QUOTE] I don't recall saying physically unfit, but mentally unfit. And "mentally unfit" is subjective. I would say I'm mentally incapable of simply listening to orders I disagree with and being someone else's pawn. I am not okay with sacrificing independence.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50216949]I would like to add onto this and say that this can move dangerously close to the Nuremberg defense. When you follow your country's orders without looking at your personal morality, you can let a lot of dangerous things happen and destroy yourself (mentally) in the process. "Just following orders" is not a good quality to me. [editline]27th April 2016[/editline] I don't recall saying physically unfit, but mentally unfit. And "mentally unfit" is subjective. I would say I'm mentally incapable of simply listening to orders I disagree with and being someone else's pawn. I am not okay with sacrificing independence.[/QUOTE] Must of confused you with someone else, lots of arguments happening in this thread. For physical stuff you'd probably just gauge it based on stuff like Cardio/Weightlifting ect.
Can we clear up what the fuck were even arguing about?
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50216549]I will not die for this country.[/QUOTE] Then feel free to leave and stop enjoying the freedoms you have here. The draft is an essential tool for the defense of our nation. It's a much better option than conscription/mandatory service that many European nations still use. If called upon in a time of need, all of us will fight to defend our country. It is our duty.
i'd kill for my country but i don't think i'd kill for congress
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50216867] Are you? Yeah, I get it, you're making a joke about someone else dying. But with how you've been talking all thread, it doesn't sound very far from the truth. You're embracing dying for your country, you know, [I]being a martyr[/I], and that people who aren't willing to be martyrs are heathens and don't deserve to live here. So when you're making a joke about a person (who is really cool and posts in the depression thread for anxiety) dying, I think you've crossed a line. It's just fucked up.[/QUOTE] i appreciate the defense but tbh i cannot relate to a damn thing he's saying so it doesn't bother me at all lmao don't worry thnx tho man [editline]28th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Snoberry Tea;50216973]Then feel free to leave and stop enjoying the freedoms you have here. The draft is an essential tool for the defense of our nation. It's a much better option than conscription/mandatory service that many European nations still use. If called upon in a time of need, all of us will fight to defend our country. It is our duty.[/QUOTE] you kinda forget that "just leave" isn't really a viable option for some people like a lot of people would love to leave but they're kinda stuck here
[QUOTE=Pascall;50216980]i appreciate the defense but tbh i cannot relate to a damn thing he's saying so it doesn't bother me at all lmao don't worry thnx tho man[/QUOTE] You've never been assassinated and then made into a martyr while training for a hypothetical draft?
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;50216943]With knowledge of the Vietnam War now, no. There's no way of telling how I'd think during that time.[/QUOTE] It boils down to the Cold War: there was a part of Vietnam that was fighting for independence from the rest of the communist country. They were failing hard and since the US believed that any communist country was a threat to the sanctity of the United States and capitalism, we joined to help fight the "good" fight. We lost a shit ton of people and 2/3 of the United States was disgusted with the war. We also lost. We weren't actually being attacked. It wasn't an emergency. Sure, maybe it was an emergency for the politicians, but not for the masses who didn't give a fuck about Vietnam, didn't give a fuck about dying for it, and protested it. It's a great example of an inappropriate use of the draft.
[QUOTE=FinalHunter;50216930]Well that was one of dozens of quotes I was required to memorize by the Air Force for training. The point, unlike what Zukriuchen and others would believe, was to instill a sense of service before self in us. Our commitment is not to ourselves, not to our families, but to the oath we took to defend the constitution from all enemies. [/QUOTE] who are you to dictate what i believe in
[QUOTE=Richoxen;50216984]You've never been assassinated and then made into a martyr while training for a hypothetical draft?[/QUOTE] now you're just bein silly!
[QUOTE=Pascall;50216980]i appreciate the defense but tbh i cannot relate to a damn thing he's saying so it doesn't bother me at all lmao don't worry thnx tho man [editline]28th April 2016[/editline] you kinda forget that "just leave" isn't really a viable option for some people like a lot of people would love to leave but they're kinda stuck here[/QUOTE] No joke, I quite like Norway.
Every argument on here devolves into a weird mess where I think we vaguely agree with each other but we also all hate each other at the same time.
[QUOTE=Richoxen;50216997]Every argument on here devolves into a weird mess where I think we vaguely agree with each other but we also all hate each other at the same time.[/QUOTE] No, I'm pretty sure I've disagreed with most of what you said.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50216996]No joke, I quite like Norway.[/QUOTE] finland sounds nice, personally. teachers get paid a bunch there.
if it came to it, whether fighting off invaders or fighting in a revolution, i would fight for whatever i felt was best for my country. a war for corporate interest and pseudoimperialism is not what is best for my country.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50216998]No, I'm pretty sure I've disagreed with most of what you said.[/QUOTE] So you disagree that the draft is alright as a defensive measure against foreign invaders? You said "I will not die for my country." so I argued with you because that's a fairly absolute statement and I'm pretty sure even you could imagine a hypothetical scenario where you would die for it.
see i wanna say i would fight but like i am tiny and scared of many things so no i probably wouldn't!
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;50217000]if it came to it, whether fighting off invaders or fighting in a revolution, i would fight for whatever i felt was best for my country. a war for corporate interest and pseudoimperialism is not what is best for my country.[/QUOTE] That's another point, I think. If I feel I shouldn't be drafted, I'd be busy protesting and participating in programs to end the war or bring people back. I think that would be my idea of service. Sure, it's not as grueling as serving the military, but it's putting action to something I believe in.
[QUOTE=Pascall;50217004]see i wanna say i would fight but like i am tiny and scared of many things so no i probably wouldn't![/QUOTE] you don't need to fight with a gun, you can fight by giving aid to your allies or helping the effort through supplying. you can't have everyone out there directly fighting the battles, an army is only as good as its aid and supply chain
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;50217010]you don't need to fight with a gun, you can fight by giving aid to your allies or helping the effort through supplying. you can't have everyone out there directly fighting the battles, an army is only as good as its aid and supply chain[/QUOTE] see then it would depend on what kind of work that entails
[QUOTE=Richoxen;50217002]So you disagree that the draft is alright as a defensive measure against foreign invaders? You said "I will not die for my country." so I argued with you because that's a fairly absolute statement and I'm pretty sure even you could imagine a hypothetical scenario where you would die for it.[/QUOTE] Yes, but you also said that people who would object to the draft are weak mentally and physically, and that people have an intrinsic duty to die for the country when called upon. You're stuck on the principle whereas I'm concerned about people dying and wanting to help. The country itself being attacked is something that would cause me to fight and it wouldn't be for "my country". It wouldn't be for America. It would be because citizens are being attacked. When I think of Americans, I don't think of America. I think the attachment to the government and name is silly. Fighting in the Vietnam War is fighting for America. Fighting against foreign invaders is fighting for Americans. If it involves a draft, sure, whatever. That's where the 10% of where I agree with you begins, but the other 90% is because we're reaching the same conclusion based on very different motives.
[QUOTE=Pascall;50217018]see then it would depend on what kind of work that entails[/QUOTE] [video=youtube;eOSeOieLh7s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOSeOieLh7s[/video]
[QUOTE=FinalHunter;50217008]lol what? No where did I say what I think you should believe, nor did I say anywhere that I care what you believe. It doesn't impact me whatsoever. I was telling you why I posted that quote and my intended purpose behind it since you seemed to think I posted it to "feel superior." Why don't you actually contribute to the debate instead of trying to post clever one liners?[/QUOTE] What I said is that the quote is going out of its way to feel superior to others. Quit projecting, I said nothing about its intended purpose. You could very well "instill a sense of service" without needlessly antagonizing anyone who doesn't want to fight wars. What is it if not entirely based on a strawman? Who is this imaginary person that thinks nothing is worth waging war over? Since when does not believing in utmost devotion to your country mean not believing in anything?
that is asking too much of me
If the draft wasn't abused to fight wars in countries that pose no threat to the United States, and was only used when it was actually necessary then I'd be more inclined to consider it, but as it stands it has clearly been abused and it could be abused again. Considering that we're talking about the compulsory risking of one's life, I can't support such an easily-abused system.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50217007]That's another point, I think. If I feel I shouldn't be drafted, I'd be busy protesting and participating in programs to end the war or bring people back. I think that would be my idea of service. Sure, it's not as grueling as serving the military, but it's putting action to something I believe in.[/QUOTE] that is patriotism. you're fighting for what you believe is best, and though you may not be going to war that government has ordained, you're still exoressing your love for country by doing what you think is best. what i dislike is blind patriotism and total lack of any nationalism. people who believe the government always knows what it is doing and that all wars it wages are great for america, and the people who fuck off to some other country to avoid any hardship that may come from fighting for your country, whether through demonstration or combat. if it came to a draft for a war i despise, i would stand my ground and protest against, risking prison time for dodging the draft, sticking to my ideals in an attempt to maybe better my country. if i felt the war were just, i would go with pride into death defending my nation.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50217022]Yes, but you also said that people who would object to the draft are weak mentally and physically, and that people have an intrinsic duty to die for the country when called upon. You're stuck on the principle whereas I'm concerned about people dying and wanting to help. The country itself being attacked is something that would cause me to fight and it wouldn't be for "my country". It wouldn't be for America. It would be because citizens are being attacked. When I think of Americans, I don't think of America. I think the attachment to the government and name is silly. Fighting in the Vietnam War is fighting for America. Fighting against foreign invaders is fighting for Americans. If it involves a draft, sure, whatever. That's where the 10% of where I agree with you begins, but the other 90% is because we're reaching the same conclusion based on very different motives.[/QUOTE] Well typically when someone says "My country" they're including the people and things inside of it, not just the government.
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