German push to ban sale of combustion-engine cars by 2030 wins cross-party support
120 replies, posted
[QUOTE=rampageturke 2;51173077]for ages being a few recent models from bmw and maybe 2 other or so manufacturers[/QUOTE]
BMW, VW, Porsche (yeah I know VW sub), and Ford have been doing it since at least 2012.
[editline]8th October 2016[/editline]
Renault also fake it.
When manufacturers stop treating EVs like a gimmick and more like an actual functional mode of transport then I'll be happy to buy one. Until then I'm happy to keep my filthy polluting 800 mile range on a single tank diesel car.
If they would just put an electric drivetrain in a regular car then I'd be happy but at the moment we've got hideous abominations like the Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe on one end of the scale and at the other there's Teslas with shit like autopilot and a huge touchscreen that gives no feedback to the driver whatsoever.
As long as prices keep coming down and ranges keep going up then I can't see there being an issue with this piece of legislation, but there's a lot of work to be done to make this a reality.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;51172391]i just hope we have enough materials to build the batteries that will be required for this[/QUOTE]
that's my concern with this. The manufacturing process for batteries is hugely costly, in both energy, materials and pollution. I think batteries need a fundimental revolution in tech to be practical at this scale.
This whole thing just reeks of politicians working for brownie points, without really understanding the consequences of what they're asking for.
Makes me wonder how they define "combustion engine" and "zero emissions" too. It's a pretty complicated topic, and how they define it would be pretty telling of their understanding of it.
For example, do they mean internal combustion, or just any combustion at all? Because if it's the latter, just ban heat engines and save the trouble of defining exactly [I]what[/I] engines you're banning, and creating some poor legislation. But only someone who'd know what they're talking about would know to say it like that
Also as far as i know, Das Speigal is basically germany's buzzfeed, so i wouldn't use it as a primary source
If what you guys are telling is true, that they use speakers to make engine sounds, I would make that illegal, since noise pollution is also a serious thing. It would be very nice in the future to not only breathe clean air while you are walking down the street, but to also enjoy the peace.
[QUOTE=AntonioR;51173275]If what you guys are telling is true, that they use speakers to make engine sounds, I would make that illegal, since noise pollution is also a serious thing. It would be very nice in the future to not only breathe clean air while you are walking down the street, but to also enjoy the peace.[/QUOTE]
There are very strong arguments to be made against having cars be completely silent, because of pedestrian safety. This has already been subject to study since the Prius.
My family and friends would totally own a tesla now, if only it weren't for the fact that it's difficult to charge it when you live in a apartment with a huge garage for everyone. No one wants to walk a kilometer just to get to the charging station and get into your own car, even if you could park it in between the days where no charging is needed.
[editline]9th October 2016[/editline]
Hope this gets more convenient in the coming years.
[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;51173213]that's my concern with this. The manufacturing process for batteries is hugely costly, in both energy, materials and pollution. I think batteries need a fundimental revolution in tech to be practical at this scale.
This whole thing just reeks of politicians working for brownie points, without really understanding the consequences of what they're asking for.
Makes me wonder how they define "combustion engine" and "zero emissions" too. It's a pretty complicated topic, and how they define it would be pretty telling of their understanding of it.
For example, do they mean internal combustion, or just any combustion at all? Because if it's the latter, just ban heat engines and save the trouble of defining exactly [I]what[/I] engines you're banning, and creating some poor legislation. But only someone who'd know what they're talking about would know to say it like that
Also as far as i know, Das Speigal is basically german's buzzfeed, so i wouldn't use it as a primary source[/QUOTE]
Couldn't we instead make a move towards zero emission fuels such as biofuel? iirc Henry Ford designed a car that utilized biofuel made from industrial hemp and produced zero emissions.
Costly to invest in but over time it can become less expensive as more farmers grow the product and gas stations replace petroleum with biofuel whereas batteries will always remain costly to produce?
This does look more like politicians looking to score brownie points than make any serious progress.
I'm wary of biofuel because if you're doing plant bases fuels you're not fixing the problem. You're not making CO2 but now you're taking land for fuel and dumping fertilizers into the environment. Agriculture is terrible for the environment. Unless you're growing algae in vats or closed circuit hydroponics for this I don't see the point.
[editline]8th October 2016[/editline]
Battery powered vehicles charged by nuclear or zero emission renewables is the best option.
[QUOTE=Plaster;51173312]My family and friends would totally own a tesla now, if only it weren't for the fact that it's difficult to charge it when you live in a apartment with a huge garage for everyone. No one wants to walk a kilometer just to get to the charging station and get into your own car, even if you could park it in between the days where no charging is needed.
[editline]9th October 2016[/editline]
Hope this gets more convenient in the coming years.[/QUOTE]
IMO legislators should just make it illegal to prevent tenants from installing a home charger.
The materials thing for batteries is a non-issue. In terms of energy consumption the Gigafactory is going to triple the world's Li-ion battery output and will be powered entirely by renewable energy sources.
[editline]8th October 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=OvB;51173356]I'm wary of biofuel because if you're doing plant bases fuels you're not fixing the problem. You're not making CO2 but now you're taking land for fuel and dumping fertilizers into the environment. Agriculture is terrible for the environment. Unless you're growing algae in vats or closed circuit hydroponics for this I don't see the point.
[editline]8th October 2016[/editline]
Battery powered vehicles charged by nuclear or zero emission renewables is the best option.[/QUOTE]
An EU study recently said the requirement for having fuel mixed with bio fuel caused emissions to effectively increase because the land cleared to grow it was mostly created by cutting down trees, which would of offset the emissions more than the fuel did.
[QUOTE=Morgen;51173378]
An EU study recently said the requirement for having fuel mixed with bio fuel caused emissions to effectively increase because the land cleared to grow it was mostly created by cutting down trees, which would of offset the emissions more than the fuel did.[/QUOTE]
Good point.
[QUOTE=OvB;51173356]I'm wary of biofuel because if you're doing plant bases fuels you're not fixing the problem. You're not making CO2 but now you're taking land for fuel and dumping fertilizers into the environment. Agriculture is terrible for the environment. Unless you're growing algae in vats or closed circuit hydroponics for this I don't see the point.
[editline]8th October 2016[/editline]
Battery powered vehicles charged by nuclear or zero emission renewables is the best option.[/QUOTE]
I watched a segment on a family owned farm in Kentucky that switched from tobacco to hemp and iirc it was said that growing hemp revitalized the soil and land it was grown up compared to tobacco or wheat which was harsher on it and required less water. I'm gonna go find it and send it to you, I just thought it was worth mentioning.
Although, you don't necessarily need to grow it on land rather than inside facilities?
Then again, growing it in facilities would result in smaller quantities.
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;51173319]Couldn't we instead make a move towards zero emission fuels such as biofuel? iirc Henry Ford designed a car that utilized biofuel made from industrial hemp and produced zero emissions.
Costly to invest in but over time it can become less expensive as more farmers grow the product and gas stations replace petroleum with biofuel whereas batteries will always remain costly to produce?
This does look more like politicians looking to score brownie points than make any serious progress.[/QUOTE]
See this is why i'm so concerned about them banning "zero emissions" vehicles and combustion/heat engines as a concept. An ICE will never be able to reach 100% combustion, so it will always produce carbon monoxide, because the combustion time in an ICE doesn't allow a carbon molecule to bond with two oxygen molocules, producing carbon dioxide, something the earth is basically one giant processing plant for, which makes it practically harmless.
If you could produce an engine that had complete combustion, you'd technically have a vehicle with zero harmful emissions, and who's waste gasses are the same thing coming out of your face when you breathe, barring any impurities in the fuel like you'd find in coal.
I've been doing research and some development on a steam car in my spare time, and i'm convinced it's a cleaner and possibly even more efficient solution until batteries can be fully worked out, but that's another topic entirely
[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;51173309]There are very strong arguments to be made against having cars be completely silent, because of pedestrian safety. This has already been subject to study since the Prius.[/QUOTE]
A car will never be completely silent, and if it weren't for all the loud noise other cars make hearing a more silent car wouldn't be a problem.
Plus I was talking about already loud cars being made louder for "cosmetic" reasons.
[QUOTE=AntonioR;51173454]A car will never be completely silent, and if it weren't for all the loud noise other cars make hearing a more silent car wouldn't be a problem.
Plus I was talking about already loud cars being made louder for "cosmetic" reasons.[/QUOTE]
A car will never be "completely" silence but the motor noise and road noise produced by an electric-powered car at low speeds is so negligible that it's practically soundless.
[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;51173472]A car will never be "completely" silence but the motor noise and road noise produced by an electric-powered car at low speeds is so negligible that it's practically soundless.[/QUOTE]
One thing I'm really going to miss about combustion-engine cars is that purr of the engine.
[QUOTE=Morgen;51173378]IMO legislators should just make it illegal to prevent tenants from installing a home charger.
[/QUOTE]
I don't remember it being illegal, it's just difficult to install it in the first place since each and every car spot now needs an 240v plug that will add to the correct counter and all that stuff.
[QUOTE=archangel125;51173476]One thing I'm really going to miss about combustion-engine cars is that purr of the engine.[/QUOTE]
For me it's more turbo whistle, blower whine, and camshaft lope.
[QUOTE=Plaster;51173497]I don't remember it being illegal, it's just difficult to install it in the first place since each and every car spot now needs an 240v plug that will add to the correct counter and all that stuff.[/QUOTE]
That's not that difficult to do. In colder countries it's quite common for residential car parks to already have power to every parking space for block heaters.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;51173500]For me it's more turbo whistle, blower whine, and camshaft lope.[/QUOTE]
[video=youtube;f58d-ng8ow8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f58d-ng8ow8[/video]
Fight me
Seriously though, nothing will ever sound better than a 6-71 sitting on top of a v8, especially if that v8 sounds like an F type
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;51173500]For me it's more turbo whistle, blower whine, and camshaft lope.[/QUOTE]
Well there's always recordings.
They'll largely go away sooner or later, better get used to quiet cars.
[QUOTE=paul simon;51173698]Well there's always recordings.
They'll largely go away sooner or later, better get used to quiet cars.[/QUOTE]
How about no and no lol.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;51173768]How about no and no lol.[/QUOTE]
Don't worry, you don't have to be part of it.
[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;51173579][video=youtube;f58d-ng8ow8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f58d-ng8ow8[/video]
Fight me
Seriously though, nothing will ever sound better than a 6-71 sitting on top of a v8, especially if that v8 sounds like an F type[/QUOTE]
Now this is what gets me. There's just nothing that can replace that.
[QUOTE=paul simon;51173802]Don't worry, you don't have to be part of it.[/QUOTE]
I know. Thank you so much Jeggs, Edelbrock, Comp Camps, and other places I can get all of the parts to create the twin turbo V8 of my dreams.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;51173816]I know. Thank you so much Jeggs, Edelbrock, Comp Camps, and other places I can get all of the parts to create the twin turbo V8 of my dreams.[/QUOTE]
Wait, what? You gotta fill me in on this sometime.
[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;51173860]Wait, what? You gotta fill me in on this sometime.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.jegs.com/[/url]
Bruh, it's like Toys R Us for gearheads....
Yea, let's continue to rely on the generation of electricity through huge turbines that mostly run off of fossil fuels to generate, and lose a lot of power rather than do the combustion on the spot and thusly get more energy out of less pollution.
[url]http://insideenergy.org/2015/11/06/lost-in-transmission-how-much-electricity-disappears-between-a-power-plant-and-your-plug/[/url]
[QUOTE=space1;51174054]Yea, let's continue to rely on the generation of electricity through huge turbines that mostly run off of fossil fuels to generate, and lose a lot of power rather than do the combustion on the spot and thusly get more energy out of less pollution.
[url]http://insideenergy.org/2015/11/06/lost-in-transmission-how-much-electricity-disappears-between-a-power-plant-and-your-plug/[/url][/QUOTE]
:speechless: Car ICEs are highly inefficient, even compared to an all coal powered EV you are going to get less pollution out of a similar sized EV compared to an ICE car. Even if you could argue that the pollution was just as bad we would still have significant environmental benefits to moving over to EVs. Power plants aren't in the middle of cities where shit tons of people live, so you eliminate the majority of the health impacts at least.
[QUOTE=Morgen;51174397]:speechless: Car ICEs are highly inefficient, even compared to an all coal powered EV you are going to get less pollution out of a similar sized EV compared to an ICE car. Even if you could argue that the pollution was just as bad we would still have significant environmental benefits to moving over to EVs. Power plants aren't in the middle of cities where shit tons of people live, so you eliminate the majority of the health impacts at least.[/QUOTE]
Maybe, but can you validate that with some statistics?
[QUOTE=Plaster;51173497]I don't remember it being illegal, it's just difficult to install it in the first place since each and every car spot now needs an 240v plug that will add to the correct counter and all that stuff.[/QUOTE]
It's not 'illegal' but most leases have provisions barring modifications to the property.
Many places, particularly multi unit buildings, do not have the facilities to handle the sort of power required. Speaking from the states point of view, it's not at all uncommon to only see 60 amp service @240v, particularly in apartment complexes. It's relatively rare to see 200 amp in most residential locations. 100 amp is more common.
Any place that has an electric stove, electric heat, electric hot water, on site clothes dryers, etc needs to keep this in mind. One or two, or even three of those is fine without an EV in most cases, but you can easily trip the main breaker on 100 amp with something as mundane as taking a shower, baking, and charging. 60 amp makes the margins even thinner, considering that 40 amp charging is the standard for Teslas (and anything less with long range EVs seems comically stupid). At that point, a microwave and some lights is enough to trip the main breaker if you are charging. Good luck if you have electric heat. This is just for a single car too. Any unit that has multiple vehicles is going to need 200 amp service at a minimum.
That means that it's not just a case of running a new cable. You'll have to rerun new service to the house, potentially upgrade the meter, upgrade the electrical panel, possibly replace all your breakers, etc. In some cases, because of legacy stuff, the mere act of replacing the panel will force you to replace half of the electrical in the house. Even disregarding that, multiple places in an area upgrading service is going to necessitate upgrading the transformers and other equipment on the lines outside the house.
[QUOTE=space1;51174521]Maybe, but can you validate that with some statistics?[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.php[/url]
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