• German push to ban sale of combustion-engine cars by 2030 wins cross-party support
    120 replies, posted
Oh, wow. So in fifteen years a major part of the German economy is going to get neutered. Sounds like a [I]great[/I] idea. [QUOTE=Morgen;51174397]:speechless: Car ICEs are highly inefficient, even compared to an all coal powered EV you are going to get less pollution out of a similar sized EV compared to an ICE car. Even if you could argue that the pollution was just as bad we would still have significant environmental benefits to moving over to EVs. Power plants aren't in the middle of cities where shit tons of people live, so you eliminate the majority of the health impacts at least.[/QUOTE]lmao no they're just out where nobody cares if they rape the environment. Outsourcing traffic pollution doesn't fix the problem but that isn't such a terribly huge issue for Germany given their recent efforts in switching to clean energy production. Still doesn't solve the issue with awful pollution surrounding modern battery technology, which is just as significant as automobile emissions.
Man I'm going to be so happy when engine noises are just... gone.
[QUOTE=Levithan;51175222]Man I'm going to be so happy when engine noises are just... gone.[/QUOTE] get out Seriously though, i know what you mean. Big deisel engines 'n shit can get annoying, but gearheads gonna gearhead. I think the ICE will live on in the same way horses live on today. A neiche hobby for enthusiasts, if way more widespread. That's probably the only application of methonol that actually makes sense too, post peak oil
[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;51175339]get out Seriously though, i know what you mean. Big deisel engines 'n shit can get annoying, but gearheads gonna gearhead. I think the ICE will live on in the same way horses live on today. A neiche hobby for enthusiasts, if way more widespread. That's probably the only application of methonol that actually makes sense too, post peak oil[/QUOTE] Culture changes, engine sounds aren't a requirement for human life. In a few generations most people won't give a damn.
What about the people who need vans or pickups for work? Hauling tools and equipment around has to severly impact the range of an EV. Though im not really sure what the commute in germany is like compared to the US
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51175193]Oh, wow. So in fifteen years a major part of the German economy is going to get neutered. Sounds like a [I]great[/I] idea. lmao no they're just out where nobody cares if they rape the environment. Outsourcing traffic pollution doesn't fix the problem but that isn't such a terribly huge issue for Germany given their recent efforts in switching to clean energy production. Still doesn't solve the issue with awful pollution surrounding modern battery technology, which is just as significant as automobile emissions.[/QUOTE] I don't think it's good that the pollution from coal would be out there fucking up the environment. But it does have significant advantages over ICE vehicles, Nox kills millions every year. Personally I want a mix of nuclear and renewables entirely powering the grid. On the battery side of things well Tesla are pushing to keep that as clean as possible. Obviously we still have to mine thr materials but that's not so bad compared to oil sands and shit. Studies confirm that the change over is still worth it.
[QUOTE=Cmx;51175407]What about the people who need vans or pickups for work? Hauling tools and equipment around has to severly impact the range of an EV. Though im not really sure what the commute in germany is like compared to the US[/QUOTE] 2030. The tech is improving rapidly.
[QUOTE=Cmx;51175407]What about the people who need vans or pickups for work? Hauling tools and equipment around has to severly impact the range of an EV. Though im not really sure what the commute in germany is like compared to the US[/QUOTE] Weight increase has a minimal impact on energy consumption, it's if you are towing something like a trailer that adds significant drag to the car that you see a big increase in consumption. [editline]9th October 2016[/editline] Also it's not like this is going to be the end of German manufacturers. Porche has been doing some interesting work on 800 volt fast charging, and VW are getting into aeV production soon. They are perhaps being a bit slow with it but I'm sure they will figure it out.
[QUOTE=Morgen;51175425]Weight increase has a minimal impact on energy consumption[/quote] Sure if you are only doing highway driving with minimal stops but getting all that weight moving over and over again in crowded city driving is going to be a huge drain [Quote] it's if you are towing something like a trailer that adds significant drag to the car that you see a big increase in consumption.[/QUOTE] I guess this really comes down to what the worker does. You got the guy with a box trailer that shouldnt have too much drag then theres the guy hauling trees.
[QUOTE=Morgen;51172899]How so? As long as countries implement proper legislation on allowing home chargers then it shouldn't be an issue with the rate that EVs are advancing. When Tesla release the non-performance version of their 100 kWh pack it will have a higher range than my petrol car.[/QUOTE] Because alot of people want some real good noise and don't want to be a pencil neck eco clown lmao.
[QUOTE=Cmx;51175471]Sure if you are only doing highway driving with minimal stops but getting all that weight moving over and over again in crowded city driving is going to be a huge drain I guess this really comes down to what the worker does. You got the guy with a box trailer that shouldnt have too much drag then theres the guy hauling trees.[/QUOTE] Sure in stop and go traffic you need to use more energy to get moving again but you can also capture more energy back via regen braking with increased weight. EVs are pretty efficient in stop and go traffic. You would need a pretty significant increase in weight to make a notable difference. [editline]9th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=C0MMUNIZT;51175487]Because alot of people want some real good noise and don't want to be a pencil neck eco clown lmao.[/QUOTE] A lot of people just want some peace and quiet and don't give a shit about cars, and would rather not have some cunt sitting at a stop light revving his massive engine pointlessly.
[QUOTE=C0MMUNIZT;51175487]Because alot of people want some real good noise and don't want to be a pencil neck eco clown lmao.[/QUOTE] As a guy who lives with his bedroom window above a busy street I can safely say fuck off to your loud engine noises. The number of times I've been abruptly woken up in the middle of the night by some cunt muffin motor fetishist revving his loud ass engine is fucking huge. Outside of an actual test track or the middle of nowhere revving your motor isn't cool. No one likes people who do that and every time they do it just makes people hope they total their car to ruin their precious motor. I can't wait for an age of nice quiet motors not contributing to sound (and literal) pollution.
[QUOTE=Morgen;51175523]Sure in stop and go traffic you need to use more energy to get moving again [B]but you can also capture more energy back via regen braking with increased weight.[/B][/QUOTE] Ehhh.. Not really. Teslas are by far the best car for regen right now, and even they peak at something like 60kw. An X loaded with heavy shit is going to be substantially more reliant on the brakes, particularly down hill. Until the cars can regen substantially more, this will remain an issue. Thing is, there's not much reason to go substantially above what they currently can because the gains are pretty minimal under any usage case that doesn't involve extensive braking in excess of the regen. Those cases are basically just prolonged downhill, extremely aggressive city driving, or heavily loaded downhill/city driving right now. As a side note to that, they keep improving the efficiency of the regen braking. That's definitely good, but it does impact the brakeless stopping power. There's been a lot of comments from owners about it on update discussion pages. Stuff like they used to coast down such and such a hill, but now need to tap on the brakes occasionally. This isn't inherently a bad thing as increased efficiency means reduced heat, so the system can run at capacity for longer. Just another one of those weird quirks in life where an improvement isn't universally better.
Tesla recently increased how much their cars can capture via regen. Unsure of the exact amount now. You aren't ever going to hit that max regen though in stop and go traffic.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51175193]lmao no they're just out where nobody cares if they rape the environment. Outsourcing traffic pollution doesn't fix the problem but that isn't such a terribly huge issue for Germany given their recent efforts in switching to clean energy production. Still doesn't solve the issue with awful pollution surrounding modern battery technology, which is just as significant as automobile emissions.[/QUOTE] You ignored the first and most important part of his point. When you build a heat engine to fit into a car, it has to be small and light, mechanically robust when bumped and moved around, and work over a range of operating points. If you build a heat engine for a power plant, you can make it as large and fragile as you like, and run it at its most efficient speed and load all day. Something like a combined Rankine cycle will get you up to around 60% thermal efficiency, which as a rule of thumb is around 2-3x the work extraction you'd get from a car ICE. Even factoring in the losses in the transmission line and battery, a power plant still produces more useful work at the car per unit fuel burned than any automotive ICE. Please stop perpetuating this myth. The fact that the pollution is moved away from cities is a small side benefit to this MASSIVE one. Something else that is useful to note is that electric cars can piggyback on the success of clean renewable/nuclear power without further development, so solving our electrical problems would also solve our transport problems in one fell swoop.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51175193]Oh, wow. So in fifteen years a major part of the German economy is going to get neutered. Sounds like a [I]great[/I] idea.[/QUOTE] the german economy (in the west anyways) went from being bombed out and under military occupation to one of the most rapidly growing and successful nations of europe in the space of 15 years if germany can bounce back from ww2 like its nothing, then making a few electric cars will be a piece of cake.
I do have to wonder how they're going to deal with the problem of electric cars not making any noise. I can see a lot of people getting hit by cars because they didn't hear them coming.
Fake sounds that are highly directed and activated at low speeds (tyre noise is enough once you are past like 15 mph) is the solution for that.
[QUOTE=Fapplejack;51175549]As a guy who lives with his bedroom window above a busy street I can safely say fuck off to your loud engine noises. The number of times I've been abruptly woken up in the middle of the night by some cunt muffin motor fetishist revving his loud ass engine is fucking huge. Outside of an actual test track or the middle of nowhere revving your motor isn't cool. [B]No one likes people who do that and every time they do it just makes people hope they total their car to ruin their precious motor[/B] I can't wait for an age of nice quiet motors not contributing to sound (and literal) pollution.[/QUOTE] Speak for yourself there, eh People will always like different things and as such I don't think you're ever gonna get the safe space you're really looking for.
[QUOTE=Levithan;51175222]Man I'm going to be so happy when engine noises are just... gone.[/QUOTE] But engines are one of the quietest parts of a car. I remember seeing an analysis somewhere (NHTSA?) that something like 70% of car noise comes from the tires and aerodynamics. I can only hear my 6 cylinder when I'm accelerating; every other time it gets drowned out by other components. If I'm standing still, the A/C fans are louder than the engine. If I'm doing 45mph on the road, the noise of the skinny tires is louder.
[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;51176381]Speak for yourself there, eh People will always like different things and as such I don't think you're ever gonna get the safe space you're really looking for.[/QUOTE] Yeah I bet the majority of people who get woken up to some idiot revving their engine pointlessly in the middle of the night are very thankful. "Thank you for waking me up so I could experience the sound of your engine".
I'm sure loads of people mourned the disappearance of the sound of hooves hitting the cobblestone back when cars were first introduced. Times change, technology progresses.
[QUOTE=Morgen;51176553]Yeah I bet the majority of people who get woken up to some idiot revving their engine pointlessly in the middle of the night are very thankful. "Thank you for waking me up so I could experience the sound of your engine".[/QUOTE] My pleasure! Just kididng I don't actually tend to do that very often but when I'm on my computer at 2 AM and I hear an engine that sounds nice I do leap out and go to the window to see what it is, and there's others like me. Which is my point, not that everyone does or has to enjoy it.
[QUOTE=Saber15;51176502]But engines are one of the quietest parts of a car. I remember seeing an analysis somewhere (NHTSA?) that something like [B]70% of car noise comes from the tires and aerodynamics[/B]. I can only hear my 6 cylinder when I'm accelerating; every other time it gets drowned out by other components. If I'm standing still, the A/C fans are louder than the engine. If I'm doing 45mph on the road, the noise of the skinny tires is louder.[/QUOTE] At what speed though? Noise pollution is more of a problem in built up areas, which is also where cars are more often braking and accelerating.
[QUOTE=r0b0tsquid;51176736]At what speed though? Noise pollution is more of a problem in built up areas, which is also where cars are more often braking and accelerating.[/QUOTE] Most of that noise is from tires, not engines.
[QUOTE=r0b0tsquid;51176736]At what speed though? Noise pollution is more of a problem in built up areas, which is also where cars are more often braking and accelerating.[/QUOTE] Noise pollution from the actual engines is only more pronounced than the others if the cars are frequently accelerating/decelerating and are at low speeds, such as in city downtown districts. Maybe I'm tone deaf or something, but even when I'm in rush hour I barely register the noise from other cars unless I have some boyracer revving his lawnmower Civic next to me. The noise from everyone's stereos ends up being louder. Everywhere else, the noise pollution from aerodynamics and the tires on tarmac is significantly louder. Not that I'm saying that electric cars wouldn't help noise pollution, it just wouldn't that big of a difference as many people think. Aerodynamic noise should drop some as the cars are more streamlined and engine noise in rush hour city traffic would be lower but frankly I think it would be pretty minor. The biggest benefit would be the localized air pollution drop.
[QUOTE=r0b0tsquid;51175619]You ignored the first and most important part of his point. When you build a heat engine to fit into a car, it has to be small and light, mechanically robust when bumped and moved around, and work over a range of operating points. If you build a heat engine for a power plant, you can make it as large and fragile as you like, and run it at its most efficient speed and load all day. Something like a combined Rankine cycle will get you up to around 60% thermal efficiency, which as a rule of thumb is around 2-3x the work extraction you'd get from a car ICE. Even factoring in the losses in the transmission line and battery, a power plant still produces more useful work at the car per unit fuel burned than any automotive ICE. Please stop perpetuating this myth. The fact that the pollution is moved away from cities is a small side benefit to this MASSIVE one. Something else that is useful to note is that electric cars can piggyback on the success of clean renewable/nuclear power without further development, so solving our electrical problems would also solve our transport problems in one fell swoop.[/QUOTE] I'm also pretty sure that distributing the power through the electric grid is cheaper than transporting fuel to the hundreds of gas stations across the city/nation.
Look I love the the sound and the whole concept of huge engines, and I love fast and loud sports cars as well, but it's time we recognised that the average, everyday car needs to be updated to be powered by something that doesn't belch out greenhouse gases and other pollutants. ICE cars should be relegated to a niche hobby, much as horse riding and horse-drawn carriages have been.
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;51178156]Look I love the the sound and the whole concept of huge engines, and I love fast and loud sports cars as well, but it's time we recognised that the average, everyday car needs to be updated to be powered by something that doesn't belch out greenhouse gases and other pollutants. ICE cars should be relegated to a niche hobby, much as horse riding and horse-drawn carriages have been.[/QUOTE] I don't know how the culture is in europe, but you'll never completely ban ICEs from the streets in the US. There are too many people who love restored classics and hot rods. The average person? Sure. They will have whatever is the cheapest that gives them the features they want. However, there are PLENTY of people who will always go for horsepower and moddability over anything else.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;51178170]I don't know how the culture is in europe, but you'll never completely ban ICEs from the streets in the US. There are too many people who love restored classics and hot rods. The average person? Sure. They will have whatever is the cheapest that gives them the features they want. However, there are PLENTY of people who will always go for horsepower and moddability over anything else.[/QUOTE] How many years do you mean by "never"? Do you think our current cars will be functioning in 300 years? Idk, I'm pretty sure electric vehicles will massively take over the car market, even within racing and such.
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