• German push to ban sale of combustion-engine cars by 2030 wins cross-party support
    120 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;51178170]I don't know how the culture is in europe, but you'll never completely ban ICEs from the streets in the US. There are too many people who love restored classics and hot rods. The average person? Sure. They will have whatever is the cheapest that gives them the features they want. However, there are PLENTY of people who will always go for horsepower and moddability over anything else.[/QUOTE] I'm sure there were a lot of people who loved horse-drawn carriages or human-pulled rickshaws back in the day, but when a better technology comes about, it will slowly but surely take over the old technology and replace it. ICE cars will be nothing more than museum relics and a niche hobby by 2050, or even earlier. There's no doubt about it.
[QUOTE=paul simon;51178198]How many years do you mean by "never"? Do you think our current cars will be functioning in 300 years? Idk, I'm pretty sure electric vehicles will massively take over the car market, even within racing and such.[/QUOTE] Ok, I was more referring more to in our lifetimes. [QUOTE=Headhumpy;51178207]I'm sure there were a lot of people who loved horse-drawn carriages or human-pulled rickshaws back in the day, but when a better technology comes about, it will slowly but surely take over the old technology and replace it. ICE cars will be nothing more than museum relics and a niche hobby by 2050, or even earlier. There's no doubt about it.[/QUOTE] The jump from ICE to electric is nowhere near the same as the jump from live animal to mechanical propulsion technology. You WILL still see ICEs on the road in 2050.
I'm both optimistic and pessimistic about this. On the one hand, Germany has the technical might and infrastructure to actually handle hydrogen and electric cars like this, on the other hand Germany also likes taking short cuts to reach goals and not one automaker there is actually serious about electric cars right now. BMW, VW, Audi, all have not produced a ground up electric car design, instead they've all opted to just drop in batteries on existing frames with very limited range. also unless they make serious commitments to replace displaced jobs from the auto industry, they're only going to generate intense public backlash, especially if the components for the electric cars are all fabricated in china or india and then shipped in for final assembly.
[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;51176381]Speak for yourself there, eh People will always like different things and as such I don't think you're ever gonna get the safe space you're really looking for.[/QUOTE] I have no issue with people liking loud cars, but when you rev them in the city at night you're a huge dick.
New cars will change as technology improves; I don't care if new cars aren't ICE powered but as a classic car enthusiast I do not ever want to see a total ICE ban on roads. I've even seen some propositions to outright destroy ICE cars.
Uh, this is great, as long as they've also authorised the commissioning of several gigawatts of generation capacity currently fulfilled by individual combustion engines. It's the same shit with electric boilers - great concept for reducing emissions, especially those other than CO2, but if the government doesn't upgrade the power grid at the same time the EVs will simply overload the network. And Germany has enough issues with dirty, hurried power gen solutions as it is.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51178576]I am sure once the CO2 output is under control you would be able to use ICEs in a limited manner, but for the sake of all of us be understanding and support heavy taxes, if not an outright ban, for those machines.[/QUOTE] As a historian & restorer I will never ever ever support an outright ban on classic cars and they already cost enough to rebuild and maintain, keep dreaming Classic cars are such an incredibly tiny percentage of polluters I sincerely doubt the category makes an impact on global CO2 levels currently, nevermind in 15 years when these cars are even rarer and other pollution sources have been cut down
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51178576]I am sure once the CO2 output is under control you would be able to use ICEs in a limited manner, but for the sake of all of us be understanding and support heavy taxes, [b]if not an outright ban, for those machines.[/b][/QUOTE] Haha fuck that. Ain't nobody going to prevent me from buying a Viper, fuck off with your prohibition bullshit pal.
"for the sake of all of us be understanding" fuck off with that. If I ever have the time and money I'm rebuilding an old american muscle or just buying one, ban the sale all you want but don't stop people like hobbyists from enjoying old vintage automobiles.
[QUOTE=Saber15;51176502]But engines are one of the quietest parts of a car. I remember seeing an analysis somewhere (NHTSA?) that something like 70% of car noise comes from the tires and aerodynamics. I can only hear my 6 cylinder when I'm accelerating; every other time it gets drowned out by other components. If I'm standing still, the A/C fans are louder than the engine. If I'm doing 45mph on the road, the noise of the skinny tires is louder.[/QUOTE] Complete fucking bull. Car engine does a fuckload of noise, if you dont hear it from inside due to sound isolation that doesnt mean others do not as well. I can only agree that tires and aerodynamics make more noise on highways, but downtown and residential areas?
I don't see a problem with allowing classic cars and limited production ICE vehicles. I also don't think anyone would drive them full time though. As EVs become a larger and larger part of the market it isnt going to make sense to maintain the existing infrastructure to deliver fuel.
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;51173319]Couldn't we instead make a move towards zero emission fuels such as biofuel? iirc Henry Ford designed a car that utilized biofuel made from industrial hemp and produced zero emissions. Costly to invest in but over time it can become less expensive as more farmers grow the product and gas stations replace petroleum with biofuel whereas batteries will always remain costly to produce? This does look more like politicians looking to score brownie points than make any serious progress.[/QUOTE] So if I had a hemp powered car and blocked the exhaust I could hotbox it instead of contracting CO poisoning? I'm sold!
snip - wow wrong thread im retarded
[QUOTE=shad0w440;51179133]So if I had a hemp powered car and blocked the exhaust I could hotbox it instead of contracting CO poisoning? I'm sold![/QUOTE] I looked more into it, and I'm most likely wrong on the zero emissions, but it has a carbon footprint similar to an electric vehicle. Like this Florida car manufacturer, who made a super car with hemp body and hemp biofuel; [url]http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/street-smarts/hemp-car-runs-biofuel-appearance-denver-article-1.2394056[/url] [quote]There would be three versions of the Renew sports car. The Canna 100/Canna 130 have a carbon footprint that's 10 percent lower than the average new electric vehicle and can hit 100 horsepower and 130 horsepower, respectively. The Canna EV has a carbon footprint that’s 22 percent cleaner than the average electric car, with versions ranging between 80 and 400 horsepower. And, last but not least, the Canna Turbo 265 can get up to 265 horsepower (or 525 if you opt for a traditional gasoline engine) and has a carbon footprint on par with the average new electric vehicle.[/quote] Also factories producing vehicles is also a heavy contributor to impact on the environment.
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;51179882]I looked more into it, and I'm most likely wrong on the zero emissions, but it has a carbon footprint similar to an electric vehicle. Like this Florida car manufacturer, who made a super car with hemp body and hemp biofuel; [url]http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/street-smarts/hemp-car-runs-biofuel-appearance-denver-article-1.2394056[/url] Also factories producing vehicles is also a heavy contributor to impact on the environment.[/QUOTE] Even if it matches an EV on emissions today, it won't in a decade. The grid is constantly getting cleaner, and all EVs on the road immediately benefit from that. When you have an ICE or hemp powered car or whatever it's going to take 20+ years for improvements to filter through the fleet.
[QUOTE=Morgen;51175412]I don't think it's good that the pollution from coal would be out there fucking up the environment. But it does have significant advantages over ICE vehicles, Nox kills millions every year. Personally I want a mix of nuclear and renewables entirely powering the grid. On the battery side of things well Tesla are pushing to keep that as clean as possible. Obviously we still have to mine thr materials but that's not so bad compared to oil sands and shit. Studies confirm that the change over is still worth it.[/QUOTE]Musk has addressed the pollution from electrical energy production as a reason for his push for solar, until we have a clean energy grid we'll be relying on coal plants that may or may not comply with regulations. Penalties for that are fines and warnings to not do it again and that's not just in my own country, in others the environmental damages aren't taken seriously either. Yeah it would be great if nuclear and clean energy were what we had across the board but I can tell you flatly that is not the case in the United States and that's a big, big chunk of world energy production right there. Plus we have a massive, massive amount of vehicles on the road so a large shift to electric vehicles would mean even more coal and natural gas plants would be built. Nuclear is unfortunately just not easily done due to the regulations, some of which are just stupid and based in anti-nuclear fear. [QUOTE=r0b0tsquid;51175619]You ignored the first and most important part of his point. When you build a heat engine to fit into a car, it has to be small and light, mechanically robust when bumped and moved around, and work over a range of operating points.[/QUOTE]No, I [I]got[/I] that point but you're not understanding that it's irrelevant because we're talking about net production of environmental pollutants and not discussing what is a more efficient system. [QUOTE]Even factoring in the losses in the transmission line and battery, a power plant still produces more useful work at the car per unit fuel burned than any automotive ICE. Please stop perpetuating this myth. The fact that the pollution is moved away from cities is a small side benefit to this MASSIVE one.[/QUOTE][I]What in the [B]fuck[/B] am I reading right now?[/I] Pollution is okay because people don't notice it? No, it still counts even if it doesn't bother you and putting it in rural areas means you fuck with arable land and if I need to explain why [I]that's[/I] a bad idea then I'm sorry but there isn't any way I can dumb down the concept so you'll understand it. One of the largest criticisms toward electric vehicles lies with outdated or unclean power generation, why else do you think Germany pushed so hard for clean energy? It was neat? No, they ran on coal for decades and it was killing their environment and they did something about it.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;51178261]The jump from ICE to electric is nowhere near the same as the jump from live animal to mechanical propulsion technology. You WILL still see ICEs on the road in 2050.[/QUOTE] It's entirely likely they will be relegated to special purpose vehicles however. As for the most part, an electric motor can do everything an ICE can do, with less effort. For most people, it's the inevitable evolution in how your car moves. You'll probably still see them in things like heavy haulage and construction work, where charging every so often would be more of a hindrance, and having instant torque might be a problem. But for consumer vehicles ICEs will almost certainly just be replaced. In the near future at least, they'll be found on older vehicles only that the owners are maintaining or refusing to get rid of for whatever reason.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;51182808]It's entirely likely they will be relegated to special purpose vehicles however. As for the most part, an electric motor can do everything an ICE can do, with less effort. For most people, it's the inevitable evolution in how your car moves. You'll probably still see them in things like heavy haulage and construction work, where charging every so often would be more of a hindrance, and having instant torque might be a problem. But for consumer vehicles ICEs will almost certainly just be replaced. In the near future at least, they'll be found on older vehicles only that the owners are maintaining or refusing to get rid of for whatever reason.[/QUOTE] Don't get me wrong, I see it happening for family sedans and things like that, but the Corvette will still come with an LS and the Challenger will still come with a hemi. It all comes down to two types of people: Those who want to get from A to B, and those who LOVE the experience of driving. I think the former will adopt EVs as soon as they can and the latter will be more hesitant if it can't out perform an ICE for the same cost.
Diesel trucks for hauling and construction most definitely will still be needed, but with lawmakers not really understanding those small details I fear they'll probably do a blanket ban.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;51182827]Don't get me wrong, I see it happening for family sedans and things like that, but the Corvette will still come with an LS and the Challenger will still come with a hemi. It all comes down to two types of people: Those who want to get from A to B, and those who LOVE the experience of driving. I think the former will adopt EVs as soon as they can and the latter will be more hesitant if it can't out perform an ICE for the same cost.[/QUOTE] Assuming we can really pin down the technologies in EVs, I could see them taking off with petrolheads too. Being able to entirely customise the torque curve of the motors, tweak all kinds of neat shit related to simulating mechanical actions, etc. would eventually come around with custom ECU software (or tinker-friendly manufacturers). Motors themselves may struggle to set speed records right now, but what they can do (accelerate insanely) they do really well. We just need to work on the other part of that equation now. The aural aspect of an ICE isn't really replaceable, simulating it without a top-end sound system just isn't going to be the same.
Don't forget that the quickest car in mass production right now is the Model S and only costs a little ocer 100k. Of course its not so great on the track but the amount of petrol heads that actually go to the track is pretty low.
I see this all going the same way as old muscle cars. The youths of the 70's and 80's idolized the American muscle cars of the 60's and 70's and still to this day think they are the best cars ever made. They will spend tons of money restoring and upgrading old muscle cars that, while cool in their own right, pale in comparison to the general performance, handling and comfort of new sports cars. Us millennials will be split, with some clinging to the ICE's of our youth and some adopting EV's wholeheartedly. But in twenty years EV's will very likely outperform ICE's in all aspects and the ones who idolized ICE's will be like our fathers and grandfathers, stuck to the past through nostalgia alone. The idea that ICE heavy vehicles will not be able to be replaced by EV versions in the near future is a pretty shortsighted idea.
A reason some people adore the old ICE cars of yore was probably because of how much more hands on they were. The work that went in to restoring them and doing the work yourself to get it running. My dad from time to time talks about the different muscle cars he had and the work he put in to them which gives him fond memories, I'm sure it's the same for many enthusiasts and hobbyists. Those old cars were more mechanical than anything else today. If you hacked into a car now you can shut down everything and cause a collision, if anything goes wrong you need to take it to the dealer. Many men and women prefer to do the work themselves on what they paid for. Automakers want to make working on your own car illegal, Tesla wouldn't be any different. I'm not a weekend warrior, I'm not a home mechanic or a enthusiast myself(if I was I still wouldn't have a garage to work with) but I can fully understand why some people love old ICE cars. It's not just about performance, but to some people they love investing that time into their machine, the independence and tinker spirit that America is associated with.
[QUOTE=Ajacks;51183708]I see this all going the same way as old muscle cars. The youths of the 70's and 80's idolized the American muscle cars of the 60's and 70's and still to this day think they are the best cars ever made. They will spend tons of money restoring and upgrading old muscle cars that, while cool in their own right, pale in comparison to the general performance, handling and comfort of new sports cars. Us millennials will be split, with some clinging to the ICE's of our youth and some adopting EV's wholeheartedly. But in twenty years EV's will very likely outperform ICE's in all aspects and the ones who idolized ICE's will be like our fathers and grandfathers, stuck to the past through nostalgia alone.[/QUOTE] It is true that there are some cars that will never be built again, true examples of "they don't make 'em like this anymore". For example, the Toyota MR2, a pure driver's car, made for fun. A relatively cheap mid-engined oversteer-happy car. A poor man's ferrari, in some ways. Nobody will ever make car with those characteristics again.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;51182808]It's entirely likely they will be relegated to special purpose vehicles however. As for the most part, an electric motor can do everything an ICE can do, with less effort. For most people, it's the inevitable evolution in how your car moves. You'll probably still see them in things like heavy haulage and construction work, where charging every so often would be more of a hindrance, and having instant torque might be a problem. But for consumer vehicles ICEs will almost certainly just be replaced. In the near future at least, they'll be found on older vehicles only that the owners are maintaining or refusing to get rid of for whatever reason.[/QUOTE]Extremely heavy vehicles rarely have a direct mechanical linkage to the power unit, anything that's moving tons of steel isn't going to have instant torque anyways because of the way power is transferred from the engine to the differential and in the differential itself. We've been moving away from purely mechanical diesel-powered heavy vehicles for awhile now, it's just easier to have an electric motor (or more often independent electric motors) do the hard work while the diesel engine spins a generator (or an AC alternator-rectifier) instead of having massive torque converters and viscous differentials. Nearly all haul trucks (those MASSIVE dump trucks at quarries and mines) use diesel-electric drivetrains and have independent traction motors for each wheel, a notable exception is the Caterpillar 797 which is all mechanical. Diesel-electric locomotives are pretty much the de facto standard on rail networks worldwide, older locomotives are being replaced every day.
The thing that absolutely upsets me the most about this is it probably put a complete stop to [URL="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-diesel"]Audi's bluefuel/e-diesel technologies. Full synthetic gasoline that supposedly can run in most modern cars with some engine tuning[/URL]. If they incentivised lower emissions vehicles and initiatives like Audi's rather than putting a blanket ban on ICE's I feel it would be much better. Other than that I forsee all their automotive manufacturers leaving the country.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;51178261]The jump from ICE to electric is nowhere near the same as the jump from live animal to mechanical propulsion technology. You WILL still see ICEs on the road in 2050.[/QUOTE] Hell you'll still see horse & buggy on the road in 2050 if you leave near Amish country.
[QUOTE=jazxsora;51186997]The thing that absolutely upsets me the most about this is it probably put a complete stop to [URL="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-diesel"]Audi's bluefuel/e-diesel technologies. Full synthetic gasoline that supposedly can run in most modern cars with some engine tuning[/URL]. If they incentivised lower emissions vehicles and initiatives like Audi's rather than putting a blanket ban on ICE's I feel it would be much better. Other than that I forsee all their automotive manufacturers leaving the country.[/QUOTE] It doesn't eliminate the local health impacts though.
[QUOTE=Morgen;51187038]It doesn't eliminate the local health impacts though.[/QUOTE] From diesel exhaust or from the production?
[QUOTE=jazxsora;51187085]From diesel exhaust or from the production?[/QUOTE] From the exhaust. No idea about the production. There's also the cost factor. Iirc a few years ago when they announced it they could only match the cost when oil was at an all time high and if you excluded it from taxes. Electric is much cheaper, even in the states.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.