• European leaders begin negotiations on new EU treaty to implement Eurozone fiscal union
    89 replies, posted
[QUOTE=The fox;33539014]"hurr, ACTA got voted down, by the same people who came up with it in the first place; must mean they care about us!" You can't be really be serious, The EU came up with it, that is the problem. If they care so much about us, why would they bother doing it in the first place?[/QUOTE] Actually it was the USA, EC, Japan and Switzerland. And seriously, WHO CARES if someone makes something up but then doesn't even let the law pass? It didn't and WON'T pass, that's what counts and not something that has been discussed and denied.
[QUOTE=acds;33539044]Except the EU was the one to hold it up for quite a while, and it got downsized as well before passing. You think Sweden wouldn't have accepted it? When it already bends over repeatedly to the MPAA and RIAA?[/quote] The EU CAME UP with ACTA. [quote] At least research the topic before criticizing it. [/quote] I posted a link a post or two above. [quote]Oh no 2 million € what will we do. Ok, a minus for the EU, but a damn small one.[/quote] Actually, try 3 million Euro, or 30 billion SEK. Certainly something we could use, when our own law enforcement only gets about 20. [quote]Banned children toys for safety reasons? That's it guys, shut down the EU and let all our economies go to hell.[/QUOTE] More like micro managing shit that has absolutely no value, at all, besides for the sake of it. But this is exactly what I mean, no matter what you present to EU fanatics, they'll always deny the fact that the EU is evil and should be done away with.
Semi on topic. I have heard rumors of the nordic countries (being Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark and Iceland) were planning some kind of union outside the EU. Can anyone confirm? In such case of this being true it would be a good time to break out those plans again.
You know, The fox, it's funny that almost all of your posts are in EU threads. Are you a member of some anti-EU propaganda party?
[QUOTE=The fox;33539014] Not being a member? In what? The failing Euro zone? Cause last I checked, we pay billions of SEK to those asshats in Brussel. And here is another one, of a EU wide internet filter being brought into action; [url]http://pcforalla.idg.se/2.1054/1.383103/eu-vill-infora-centralt-internetfilter-i-europa[/url] Gee, I must be such a fool thinking the EU respects our privacy and so on. [/QUOTE] No sources, talks about a supposedly secret meeting which the guy knows everything about apparently, and 6 months after the EU passes the opposite [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15871961[/url] Heck even if it was real, it didn't happen, while the opposite did. Also while not related to this occasion, people should learn that [B]proposals[/B] are not accepted, and often weren't made by the EU. The EU considering a proposal means absolutely nothing.
[QUOTE=Firewarrior;33539077]You know, The fox, it's funny that almost all of your posts are in EU threads. Are you a member of some anti-EU propaganda party?[/QUOTE] I rarely post in other cases because the topics either aren't interesting, or already cover the points I would make. And what are you a part of, then, EU propaganda party? And here is even more of privacy invasion by the EU; [url]http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/politik/euvalet2009/eu-vill-lagra-passageraruppgifter_2768215.svd[/url] This time, the EU wants to log all people who travel outside of the EU and pretty much anything about them. Man, I can keep going all night long.
The Fox and Firewarrior. Be mature and take it to PM, no need for dickwaving here.
[QUOTE=The fox;33539096]I rarely post in other cases because the topics either aren't interesting, or already cover the points I would make. And what are you a part of, then, EU propaganda party?[/QUOTE] No, but of the one where facts and not made-up stuff counts.
[QUOTE=Firewarrior;33539106]No, but of the one where facts and not made-up stuff counts.[/QUOTE] I have posted several sources, but like I said, people like yourself will certainly just ignore it. How right I was. Though, I believe I will take the posters advice on the last page.
[QUOTE=The fox;33539096]I rarely post in other cases because the topics either aren't interesting, or already cover the points I would make. And what are you a part of, then, EU propaganda party? And here is even more of privacy invasion by the EU; [url]http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/politik/euvalet2009/eu-vill-lagra-passageraruppgifter_2768215.svd[/url] This time, the EU wants to log all people who travel outside of the EU and pretty much anything about them. Man, I can keep going all night long.[/QUOTE] Damn, if only it was up to just the Swedish government instead, they would never allow suc- [quote]Den svenska regeringen har redan tidigare sagt att man är positiv till att införa systemet.[/quote] Oh wait (translated it says that the Swedish government is for it).
[QUOTE=The fox;33538760]First off, holocaust denying. Not saying the holocaust didn't happen, but the fact that you are not allowed to voice your opinion certainly seems like a intrusion into free speech. Second off, IPRED, allows companies to subpoena your IP and get your name from it, to then bring you to court and sue your ass to hell and back. Third off, Ignored Sweden when the government implanted FRA, catching all in and outgoing internet, email and telephone trafic. I can go on and on, but like I said, people blindly defending the EU will hardly accept cold hard facts. And I have to take my dog out for a walk, so perhaps we can continue this fun once i'm back.[/QUOTE] Since when is the EU suppressing information on it? I could talk about the Holocaust all I want and probably only get some angry glances from those who are were emotionally affected by it. You've got a lot of info to deal out here. [QUOTE=The fox;33538760]I can go on and on, but like I said, people blindly defending the EU will hardly accept cold hard facts. And I have to take my dog out for a walk, so perhaps we can continue this fun once i'm back.[/QUOTE] Yes, please do go on and on.
[QUOTE=acds;33539152]Damn, if only it was up to just the Swedish government instead, they would never allow suc- Oh wait.[/QUOTE] Even if they weren't, Sweden would still be enforced to add it as law. [quote]Since when is the EU suppressing information on it? I could talk about the Holocaust all I want and probably only get some angry glances from those who are were emotionally affected by it. You've got a lot of info to deal out here.[/quote] I have put up sources for everything I have said, besides the holocaust denial part, which apparently got shot down. But we have something similiar here.. [url]http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/justice_freedom_security/combating_discrimination/l33178_en.htm[/url]
[QUOTE=The fox;33539160]Even if they weren't, Sweden would still be enforced to add it as law.[/QUOTE] And if the EU wasn't there, Sweden would pass stuff like this anyway, seeing as how they are supporting this. How would the removal of the EU change anything about this really? Doesn't matter if it's the Swedish government or the EU doing it, same shit.
[QUOTE=The fox;33539113]I have posted several sources, but like I said, people like yourself will certainly just ignore it. How right I was. Though, I believe I will take the posters advice on the last page.[/QUOTE] But isn't it YOU who ignores the facts and just goes over to the next argument? One example: ACTA. This really doesn't need to be taken to PM, because this thread is about the EU so it's pretty on-topic.
[QUOTE=Firewarrior;33539205]But isn't it YOU who ignores the facts and just goes over to the next argument? One example: ACTA. This really doesn't need to be taken to PM, because this thread is about the EU so it's pretty on-topic.[/QUOTE] What? You posted a statement that said the EU shot ACTA down, while they were the ones who came up with it in the first place. Do you not understand the logic behind it? It can't be that hard to wrap your head around.
[QUOTE=The fox;33538682]"hurp a durp, without a oppressive government controlling europe, theyll instantly fall into war and chaos, hurr durr" Are you serious? Like, I mean, really? You are aware that the brown shirts left Germany about 80 years ago, right? And that Stalin and the Soviet Union has long since collapsed? No? Oh. alright. Cause, you know, even if the EU were to collapse and burn in its own feces like it deserves, Europe won't instantly fall into WW3. Perhaps you should think longer than to your own nose before posting next time? It'll look far better than mad assumptions that war and chaos will errupt. And even so, you are aware that almost the entire world is in a deep financial recess, right? There is absolutely no way in hell there will be another war for a long time, between European countries.[/QUOTE] How is the EU oppressive? While I don't agree with a number of their decisions, and some are pretty hardline, I can't really put credence to calling the EU more oppressive than national governments. In fact, one of the major friction points between member states and the EU is the EU defending citizen and consumer rights in areas the nation states would rather not. Also any european country would be economically bust if the EU goes down at this point. The economies are so intertwined that even euro countries that do not have the euro have most of their markets in countries that have it, or in countries that have close ties to countries that do. In some ways, the pan-european economy is more intertwined than the current US economy state to state.
[QUOTE=The fox;33539228]What? You posted a statement that said the EU shot ACTA down, while they were the ones who came up with it in the first place. Do you not understand the logic behind it? It can't be that hard to wrap your head around.[/QUOTE] They came up with it. So what? Did it go through? As you can clearly see it didn't. I think it's you who doesn't understand it. Your country's government comes up with useless stuff like that all the time, but does most of it go through? No. I guess if you knew of all the shit people come up with you wouldn't want to live anymore.
[QUOTE=The fox;33539062]The EU CAME UP with ACTA.[/QUOTE] [URL="https://www.ige.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/Juristische_Infos/e/transparency_paper.pdf"]"In 2006, Japan and the United States launched the idea of a new plurilateral treaty to help in the fight against counterfeiting and piracy, the so-called Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement (ACTA)."[/URL]
[QUOTE=wraithcat;33539258]How is the EU oppressive? While I don't agree with a number of their decisions, and some are pretty hardline, I can't really put credence to calling the EU more oppressive than national governments.[/quote] Yes, because passing the Telecoms package, which it did indeed include a few things for customers, also included a article that mentioned that information can be collected and stored, or something along those lines. And if the EU wasn't as oppressive as any other government, why did they allow FRA to pass in our country? Why did they allow our internet censorship to pass? [QUOTE=Xenocidebot;33539272][URL="https://www.ige.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/Juristische_Infos/e/transparency_paper.pdf"]"In 2006, Japan and the United States launched the idea of a new plurilateral treaty to help in the fight against counterfeiting and piracy, the so-called Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement (ACTA)."[/URL][/QUOTE] [url]http://ec.europa.eu/trade/creating-opportunities/trade-topics/intellectual-property/anti-counterfeiting/[/url] [b]In 2007, [u]the EU[/u] and a number of other WTO members began work on a new international agreement – the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement (ACTA).[/b] And here we have even more intrusions by the EU; "EU raising Swedish membership cost - by 10 billion SEK, 1 million Euro" - [url]http://di.se/Artiklar/2011/6/30/239276/Rejal-hojning-av-EU-avgiften-foreslas/[/url] To put this cost into perspective, our law enforcement recieves around 20 billion SEK each year. We give up around 30 - 40 Billion SEK to the EU, just for being in it. "EU forces football teams to wear EU flag, and the EU flag to be raised at any major sporting event" - [url]http://www.friatider.se/krav-pa-eu-flagga-pa-landslagsdress[/url] "Herring banned by the EU" - [url]http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7643734.ab[/url] - This type of fish is considered a delicacy in Sweden. Certainly, I am glad that the EU is banning us from eating fish, I am so glad we pay double the amount our law enforcement gets for this. "EU decides that Öland is no longer a island" - [url]http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article13600699.ab[/url]
I theme music of the empire in Star Wars started playing in my head when I read this.
The united states of Europe; And so Oceania was born.
[QUOTE=Electrocuter;33538659][citation needed][/QUOTE] The technocrat governments in Italy and Greece.
[QUOTE=The fox;33539160]I have put up sources for everything I have said, besides the holocaust denial part, which apparently got shot down. But we have something similiar here.. [url]http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/justice_freedom_security/combating_discrimination/l33178_en.htm[/url][/QUOTE] [QUOTE]public condoning, denying or grossly trivialising crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes as defined in the Statute of the International Criminal Court (Articles 6, 7 and 8) and crimes defined in Article 6 of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal, when the conduct is carried out in a manner likely to incite violence or hatred against such a group or a member of such a group.[/QUOTE] Doesn't mean you can't discuss it. Although, IMO, the "control" (if you will) over the tone at which a subject is allowed to be discussed is rather silly. I'd much rather have the cold-hard truth than put on the pink shades and prohibit it because "it's a sensitive matter".
[QUOTE=The fox;33538886] Let's not forget our dear Lisbon treaty, either.[/QUOTE]What's wrong with the Lisbon treaty?
[QUOTE=The fox;33539282] And here we have even more intrusions by the EU; "EU raising Swedish membership cost - by 10 billion SEK, 1 million Euro" - [url]http://di.se/Artiklar/2011/6/30/239276/Rejal-hojning-av-EU-avgiften-foreslas/[/url] To put this cost into perspective, our law enforcement recieves around 20 billion SEK each year. We give up around 30 - 40 Billion SEK to the EU, just for being in it. [/QUOTE] And you gain how many billions from building up other countries, from investing in those countries, from being export partners with them while their economy and need for imports from your country is rising? You give billions but receive many, many more billions in the future.
[QUOTE=Ond kaja;33539401]What's wrong with the Lisbon treaty?[/QUOTE] Countries loose power over their own countries; loose veto rights, it was also forced through the EU and pretty much ignored Ireland's say in it all. [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7927742.stm[/url] Second column [QUOTE=Firewarrior;33539411]And you gain how many billions from building up other countries, from investing in those countries, from being export partners with them while their economy and need for imports from your country is rising? You give billions but receive many, many more billions in the future.[/QUOTE] How, exactly, will putting double the amount our law enforcement into the EU, so, for example, other countries can grow crops and food in their own countries, then sell that, in their own countries, help us? How does the cash we pay, that help repair roads and do such things, in other countries, not talking about any international roads, help us? Is it truely reasonable that the EU should recieve 40 billion SEK, just because we are in it, and then pull shit like the things I listed above or on the first page, and then let our law enforcement, which is horribly outmanned and has its resources stretched thin, only have 20 billion SEK? How in hell can you justify that? Or even our own schools, medical care, jobs, markets, infrastructure etc. And here we have even more.. "European Union securing veto right for any border laws" - [url]http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/eu-kommissionen-far-vetoratt-om-granskontroller_6444580.svd[/url] "European Union wants to secure right to remove credit ratings for countries within EU" - [url]http://di.se/Artiklar/2011/10/21/248538/EU-vill-stoppa-kreditbetyg/[/url]
[QUOTE=smurfy;33539019]Isn't Ireland a bit financially fucked at the moment? So might fiscal union be good for them?[/QUOTE] Well the Irish economy is very much export driven, so the worse the global and Eurozone economies get, the harder it is for us to recover. As it is though, we're doing okay. You'd think that fiscal union would be good for us, but leaving the Euro and re-introducing the Irish Pound is a very popular idea here. I'm not much of an expert so I've no idea what would be best for us.
[QUOTE=The fox;33539282][url]http://ec.europa.eu/trade/creating-opportunities/trade-topics/intellectual-property/anti-counterfeiting/[/url] [b]In 2007, [u]the EU[/u] and a number of other WTO members began work on a new international agreement – the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement (ACTA).[/b][/QUOTE] Being a party in discussions and "coming up with" a thing are very fucking distinct. I'm not even really fond of the EU I just find your cognition-impairing rage hilarious.
About bloody time. There's a reason why the Euro was heavily criticised during its birth. You can't put the monetary union first before political/fiscal union. For as long as there's nothing dodgy in it, I'm all for it. [QUOTE=Capitulazyguy;33539342]The technocrat governments in Italy and Greece.[/QUOTE] I didn't know the EU controls the markets! This is new information! /sarcasm [QUOTE=Caesar;33538918]Any new EU treaty will almost definitely have to be passed as a referendum in Ireland because of our constitution, and there is [b]no way[/b] that it would, unless there were some very favourable clauses for Ireland included. The Irish public at the moment are very anti-EU. Then again, Lisbon and Nice were both rejected by the people the first time, and the referenda were held again until they were passed.[/QUOTE] The Treaty of Lisbon was redrafted when the Irish rejected it. So they're not pushing the absolutely same thing again and again until it passes.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;33539501]Being a party in discussions and "coming up with" a thing are very fucking distinct.[/QUOTE] Alright then, if its just "discussions" why does it explicity state "[b][u]began work[/b][/u] on a new international agreement"? Did you even read what I posted?
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