London receptionist 'sent home for not wearing heels'
87 replies, posted
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50299977]You've just automatically assumed that 'social norms' are necessarily a bad thing without any evidence whatsoever. They [I]can[/I] be a bad thing. But they can also be a good thing. I would say that formal wear in certain places is very much a good thing. Way of dress is a way of sending a signal to those around you, and formal wear, whatever it entails, is an example of doing that. I don't think that social signal are ever going away, and nor should they, because life would be very confusing without them.[/QUOTE]
Most formal wear nowadays is becoming more about comfort than style. Corsets aren't common anymore, and neither is wearing four layers in August.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;50299027]I actually read a similar article yesterday, shit's terrible. (basically same spiel, women are required to wear heels and a uniform that they must buy, except this time the men can wear whatever black attire they have from their own wardrobes)
[img]http://i.imgur.com/zQgsUh2.jpg[/img]
^ That's someone's feet after their shift.[/QUOTE]
This may be a shock but not all high heels do that (or anything) to your feet. There are plenty that are just... shoes.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;50299977]You've just automatically assumed that 'social norms' are necessarily a bad thing without any evidence whatsoever. They [I]can[/I] be a bad thing. But they can also be a good thing. I would say that formal wear in certain places is very much a good thing. Way of dress is a way of sending a signal to those around you, and formal wear, whatever it entails, is an example of doing that. I don't think that social signal are ever going away, and nor should they, because life would be very confusing without them.[/QUOTE]
Yeh I got a little carried away. I'm just shocked an employer still thinks he can get away with shit like the heel thing. Sounds like something from Mad Men.
A dress code? At a work place!? Color me surprised! Stupid misogynist pigs!
[editline]11th May 2016[/editline]
Heels look terribly uncomfortable and all that but isn't this something she's known about since she was hired? Was she held at gunpoint and forced to work at this place?
[QUOTE=Kylel999;50300080]A dress code? At a work place!? Color me surprised! Stupid misogynist pigs![/QUOTE]
Way to ignore and entire page of discussion on why this is bad without adding anything to it.
[QUOTE=SpartanApples;50299687]I'm not saying that women should be forced to wear heels, but this was a temp job at a high-profile accountancy firm where her main role was to greet clients. Half the job is to look attractive and welcoming.[/QUOTE]
Ok... I have a severe... Lets call it fetish, for heels and that kind of stuff. I love women in a good pair of heels.
But FUCK wearing those for 9 hours. I wouldn't ask that from anyone, in any situation.
Besides, you're probably gonna get a bad performance out of someone when they are in pain, so y'know, fuck that.
[QUOTE=Kylel999;50300080]A dress code? At a work place!? Color me surprised! Stupid misogynist pigs!
[editline]11th May 2016[/editline]
Heels look terribly uncomfortable and all that but isn't this something she's known about since she was hired[/QUOTE]
Requiring heels in any dress code for normal work is ridiculous. I've obviously never worn them, but from all reports, for many women, they are agonising. This isn't the same as rejecting all formal dress, as some people in this thread are doing, but rejecting one element of a dress code.
[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;50298874]i guess this isnt entirely on topic
but fuck formal wear[/QUOTE]
I'm not really into ot, but if I ran a company dress code would be Polo shirts or button down shirts at the very least
A guy whos tried on high heels, it seems like torture to force someone to wear that shit if they dont like it. Honestly heels just seem retarded as fuck, you get rid of balance and comfort for... what?
Dress codes are perfectly fine and acceptable, but jesus fuck their are SO many alternatives for women shoes that look good vs heels.
[QUOTE=Kylel999;50300080]A dress code? At a work place!? Color me surprised! Stupid misogynist pigs!
[editline]11th May 2016[/editline]
Heels look terribly uncomfortable and all that but isn't this something she's known about since she was hired? Was she held at gunpoint and forced to work at this place?[/QUOTE]
Well, given the current job market, yeah, sometimes you can't be choosy with what job offers you get. And even if she did have a wide range of offers, similar jobs tend to have similar dress codes.
"Oh, sure, the dress code for this job is unnecessarily uncomfortable and sexist, but as long as we tell people about it it's fine, right? The problem isn't with our outdated dress code, it's with everyone else."
Can we just band together as a society and throw high heels in the fucking garbage
[QUOTE=The Un-Men;50299923]Heels and other formal wear is seen as "sharp" [I]only[/I] because we've always been exposed to previously existing social norms that make us think about it that way in the first place AKA a social construct. It seems necesary because "well why not? it's always been like this, it's the way to look sharp", despite giving priority to form over function and us not having a say in it.
It's only a formality, and a carryover of obsolete social norms.
[IMG]http://www.vam.ac.uk/__data/assets/image/0006/221973/2006aa1677_mens_formal_ensemble_about_1765_290x435.jpg[/IMG]
I'm thankful I don't live in a time where I have to wear this to parties. Heels and ties and other shit will eventually disappear and seem as obsolete and extravagant.
(Disclaimer: That 18th century suit is pimpin'. If I were part of the 18th century elite I'd totally use it. Just not for 9 hours.)[/QUOTE]
Looking good is actually pretty natural. We do it with clothes/hair, plenty of other animals give a fuck about their looks, and so do their partners. Especially birds. They will make shit or do shit to themselves, or do some dance, something that makes them look better compared to those around them.
If you sent someone in to a Macys to just get a set of business clothes, vs someone who had them all tailored made, the other person will look a lot better generally, lets say its the exact same person to make it easy.
Formal wear looks "sharp" not because of a social construct, its because we just KNOW what looks good/bad or a good hunk of a people do, if anything the only social construct are the words to describe it, not that it looks good. We really dont need to sit down and have a discussion whos dressed better, the guy frumpy pajamas vs a guy in a well made suit. The guy in the stained T-Shirt, or the guy in the ironed and clean one?
You wouldnt even think, if you saw those people lined up your brain would instantly click and realize who looked better and was better dressed.
A reason more businessy places like to have formal wear because it really does come off as them giving a shit and looking more prestigious, it does so because people figured out over periods of time what types of clothes give off this look.
That is why dresses havent been obsolete and probably never will.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;50300260]
Formal wear looks "sharp" not because of a social construct, its because we just KNOW what looks good/bad or a good hunk of a people do, if anything the only social construct are the words to describe it, not that it looks good. We really dont need to sit down and have a discussion whos dressed better, the guy frumpy pajamas vs a guy in a well made suit. The guy in the stained T-Shirt, or the guy in the ironed and clean one?
[/QUOTE]
If it were that simple every culture throughout all of time would wear very similar formal clothes, which is already defeated if you compare that picture to something like a suit and tie today.
Aren't high heels a stupid gimmick shoe anyways?
[QUOTE=SpartanApples;50299687]I'm not saying that women should be forced to wear heels, but this was a temp job at a high-profile accountancy firm where her main role was to greet clients. Half the job is to look attractive and welcoming.[/QUOTE]
If she was going to be sat behind a desk most of the day the heels probably wouldn't have been as much an issue. But if she was expected to walk around, run errands, etc. like a lot of bosses seem to expect from receptionists today (rather than getting a dedicated personal assistant or something), the hells would be a huge fucking problem as a part of the dress code.
They aren't shoes you're meant to spend all day on your feet in. Short periods of walking sure, but not most of your working day. Especially formal ones that tend to contort the feet a bit more than you'd hope.
Having them as a requirement is asinine. Just request that any kind of business-formal shoes are worn and be done with it.
This is why I quite like the IT sector, outside of managers a lot of companies generally don't care what you're wearing as long as you aren't coming in with a wifebeater and hot pants on.
[QUOTE=Kylel999;50300080]Heels look terribly uncomfortable and all that but isn't this something she's known about since she was hired? Was she held at gunpoint and forced to work at this place?[/QUOTE]
"Must wear heels" isn't usually the first thing on an employment contract, and I don't know why you're defending a shitty rule with "she should have known about the shitty rule" without considering the idea that the rule doesn't need to exist.
It's like you start working at an ad agency and you find out that it's a rule for employees to use a jar under their desk whenever they need to pee. Sure, it's a rule, but it makes no sense in the context of the job and shouldn't be followed/defended blindly.
Heels can look good and I understand why women choose to wear them sometimes. I've seen too many women walking around either barefoot or in tights on nights out with their heels in their hand though. They're obviously too difficult to walk in drunk, and are also too uncomfortable to wear for extended periods.
Saying nobody forced this particular person to work at this job is deliberately evasive of the problem. Heels are fucking stupid. As others have pointed out already, they can be severely damaging to a person's feet and the sooner we drop the social requirement for women to wear the bloody things the better.
[QUOTE=Last or First;50300210]Well, given the current job market, yeah, sometimes you can't be choosy with what job offers you get. And even if she did have a wide range of offers, similar jobs tend to have similar dress codes.
"Oh, sure, the dress code for this job is unnecessarily uncomfortable and sexist, but as long as we tell people about it it's fine, right? The problem isn't with our outdated dress code, it's with everyone else."[/QUOTE]
I get that people don't like this code because it's uncomfortable, but how exactly is it sexist?
Is it sexist for men's dress codes to include ties because women don't have to?
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;50299027]I actually read a similar article yesterday, shit's terrible. (basically same spiel, women are required to wear heels and a uniform that they must buy, except this time the men can wear whatever black attire they have from their own wardrobes)
[img]http://i.imgur.com/zQgsUh2.jpg[/img]
^ That's someone's feet after their shift.[/QUOTE]
This is just plain stupid. Maybe she should have worn shoes that fit better or taken them off? If your feet are bleeding like that you need to buy new shoes or else you're just a dummy. Also if you show your employer that the heels they're "forcing you to wear" are causing that bad of an injury I am positive noone in their right mind would tell you to suck it up. I work with women who wear heels for upwards of 9 hours and I guarantee you their feet don't look like that.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;50300260]Looking good is actually pretty natural. We do it with clothes/hair, plenty of other animals give a fuck about their looks, and so do their partners. Especially birds. They will make shit or do shit to themselves, or do some dance, something that makes them look better compared to those around them.
If you sent someone in to a Macys to just get a set of business clothes, vs someone who had them all tailored made, the other person will look a lot better generally, lets say its the exact same person to make it easy.
Formal wear looks "sharp" not because of a social construct, its because we just KNOW what looks good/bad or a good hunk of a people do, if anything the only social construct are the words to describe it, not that it looks good. We really dont need to sit down and have a discussion whos dressed better, the guy frumpy pajamas vs a guy in a well made suit. The guy in the stained T-Shirt, or the guy in the ironed and clean one?
You wouldnt even think, if you saw those people lined up your brain would instantly click and realize who looked better and was better dressed.
A reason more businessy places like to have formal wear because it really does come off as them giving a shit and looking more prestigious, it does so because people figured out over periods of time what types of clothes give off this look.
That is why dresses havent been obsolete and probably never will.[/QUOTE]
This is like trying to "Biotruth" your way through an explanation.
Humans as a whole arbitrarily class somethings as better looking than others, because we have a historical cultural precedent of what's seen as good looking, it influences the culture of the day in what they think is good looking.
If we lost all knowledge of formal dress that was used today and before, if we just lost all of that, we'd develop a new formal wear, and a new formal elite management class as we always have.
[editline]11th May 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;50301263]This is just plain stupid. Maybe she should have worn shoes that fit better or taken them off? If your feet are bleeding like that you need to buy new shoes or else you're just a dummy. Also if you show your employer that the heels they're "forcing you to wear" are causing that bad of an injury I am positive noone in their right mind would tell you to suck it up. I work with women who wear heels for upwards of 9 hours and I guarantee you their feet don't look like that.[/QUOTE]
I wore steel toes for several months, and one day the steel insert in the toe of the boot cut my skin on my toe really rather deep. I had a lot of blood coming out of my foot, and my boss told me "Put a bandaid on it and suck it up".
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;50301263]This is just plain stupid. Maybe she should have worn shoes that fit better or taken them off? If your feet are bleeding like that you need to buy new shoes or else you're just a dummy. Also if you show your employer that the heels they're "forcing you to wear" are causing that bad of an injury I am positive noone in their right mind would tell you to suck it up. I work with women who wear heels for upwards of 9 hours and I guarantee you their feet don't look like that.[/QUOTE]
in the long term it's still horrible for your feet, legs and spine even if they do fit properly
[editline]11th May 2016[/editline]
it's a health and safety hazard, employer's duty is to prevent employees from sustaining long term injuries from inadequate working environment and equipment and this should 100% be a violation of that
If your employer refused to supply you with an adequately ergonomic chair you could easily take them to court and win in the UK. I don't see why this should be any different
[QUOTE=sgman91;50301247]I get that people don't like this code because it's uncomfortable, but how exactly is it sexist?
Is it sexist for men's dress codes to include ties because women don't have to?[/QUOTE]
A better comparison would be a dress code where men have to wear tight shirts that show off their biceps and pecs. Heels are a very specific type of formal footwear and they are not central to a woman's business outfit like a tie can be for men's businesswear. There are plenty of other acceptable shoes to wear in an office environment.
[QUOTE=Jim Morrison;50301722]A better comparison would be a dress code where men have to wear tight shirts that show off their biceps and pecs. Heels are a very specific type of formal footwear and they are not central to a woman's business outfit like a tie can be for men's businesswear. There are plenty of other acceptable shoes to wear in an office environment.[/QUOTE]
... high heels in a business environment aren't meant to sexualize the woman. So I'm not getting the comparison.
It's just an expectation that applies to women and not men because of historical trends in business attire, just like ties are for men. High heels are seen as being a higher level of formality than flats just like ties are seen as a higher level of formality than not wearing a tie. Also remember that heels =/= stilettos.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50301777]... high heels in a business environment aren't meant to sexualize the woman. So I'm not getting the comparison.
It's just an expectation that applies to women and not men because of historical trends in business attire, just like ties are for men. High heels are seen as being a higher level of formality than flats just like ties are seen as a higher level of formality than not wearing a tie. Also remember that heels =/= stilettos.[/QUOTE]
High heels aren't a purely sexualized piece of clothing, but they are essentially sexualizing items as they make the ass more pronounced due to the manner of stance most women have to adopt with the heels on.
They're not inherently sexualized, but I wouldn't say they're at all relatable to ties.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50301777]... high heels in a business environment aren't meant to sexualize the woman. So I'm not getting the comparison.
It's just an expectation that applies to women and not men because of historical trends in business attire, just like ties are for men. High heels are seen as being a higher level of formality than flats just like ties are seen as a higher level of formality than not wearing a tie. Also remember that heels =/= stilettos.[/QUOTE]
wearing ties for too long won't make your neck bleed.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50301825]High heels aren't a purely sexualized piece of clothing, but they are essentially sexualizing items as they make the ass more pronounced due to the manner of stance most women have to adopt with the heels on.
They're not inherently sexualized, but I wouldn't say they're at all relatable to ties.[/QUOTE]
Better comparison would be business suits. A well-tailored suit makes a man's shoulders appear broader and more square for instance. In general it does make men appear more attractive.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50301247]I get that people don't like this code because it's uncomfortable, but how exactly is it sexist?
Is it sexist for men's dress codes to include ties because women don't have to?[/QUOTE]
the dress code being uncomfortable is why it's sexist, not because it's different for men and women. if ties restricted your airway or were so uncomfortable they made your neck bleed then yes, i would consider it pretty sexist (assuming ties were mandatory for men). but it's much easier to stand up and work wearing a tie than it is to do so wearing heels, and that's just not fair.
[QUOTE=Mining Bill;50301842]wearing ties for too long won't make your neck bleed.[/QUOTE]
I already said that I understand the fact that they're uncomfortable. (even though well fitting high heels won't make your feet bleed either) I'm purely talking to the sexism aspect.
[QUOTE]High heels aren't a purely sexualized piece of clothing, but they are essentially sexualizing items as they make the ass more pronounced due to the manner of stance most women have to adopt with the heels on.
They're not inherently sexualized, but I wouldn't say they're at all relatable to ties.[/QUOTE]
Almost every piece of clothing is made to make the person look good physically. So, sure, high heels do have the purpose of making the woman look good. Women wear high heels all the time on their own volition because they think it make them look better, and it's not because they just want to be sexy. Within the business context it gives more of a formal appearance than a sexual one, just like any number of other silly formal pieces of clothing that our culture uses.
[editline]11th May 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cone;50301906]the dress code being uncomfortable is why it's sexist, not because it's different for men and women. if ties restricted your airway or were so uncomfortable they made your neck bleed then yes, i would consider it pretty sexist (assuming ties were mandatory for men). but it's much easier to stand up and work wearing a tie than it is to do so wearing heels, and that's just not fair.[/QUOTE]
Please stop with the over exaggeration. I know plenty of women who wear heels every day to work and their feel don't bleed because of it.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50301777]... high heels in a business environment aren't meant to sexualize the woman. So I'm not getting the comparison.
It's just an expectation that applies to women and not men because of historical trends in business attire, just like ties are for men. High heels are seen as being a higher level of formality than flats just like ties are seen as a higher level of formality than not wearing a tie. Also remember that heels =/= stilettos.[/QUOTE]
I don't think heels and ties are comparable at all in the first place.
Can you give me an example of an average white collar worker being suspended or fired for not wearing a tie? Many offices these days don't even require ties for regular office drones. Business casual, smart casual and other types of officewear are button-ups and polos.
Telling a woman "you have to wear at least a 2 inch heel or you're fired, nonnegotiable" is sexist. I know people on this forum get super rowdy whenever the "s" word gets thrown around but there are actually legitimate applications for the term.
[QUOTE=Jim Morrison;50301920]I don't think heels and ties are comparable at all in the first place.
Can you give me an example of an average white collar worker being suspended or fired for not wearing a tie? Many offices these days don't even require ties for regular office drones. Business casual, smart casual and other types of officewear are button-ups and polos.
Telling a woman "you have to wear at least a 2 inch heel or you're fired, nonnegotiable" is, in my opinion, sexist. I know people on this forum get super rowdy whenever the "s" word gets thrown around but there are actually legitimate applications for the term.[/QUOTE]
Yes, there are a TON of work places that would reprimand (and fire) you for not wearing a tie.
[editline]11th May 2016[/editline]
So lay it out very clearly for me. What makes a rule that requires women to wear heels as part of their work 'uniform' sexist? Be very specific.
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