London receptionist 'sent home for not wearing heels'
87 replies, posted
[QUOTE=sgman91;50301931]Yes, there are a TON of work places that would reprimand (and fire) you for not wearing a tie.
[editline]11th May 2016[/editline]
So lay it out very clearly for me. What makes a rule that requires women to wear heels as part of their work 'uniform' sexist? Be very specific.[/QUOTE]
They're a relatively uncomfortable item of clothing for a lot of people. Men aren't really forced to wear uncomfortable things. Why should women be? Flats, and short heels, are just as professional. The concept of "PROFESSIONAL" is very fluid anyways.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50301910]Please stop with the over exaggeration. I know plenty of women who wear heels every day to work and their feel don't bleed because of it.[/QUOTE]
A) my anecdotal experience with heels contradicts yours so we're at an impasse, and B) no one has ever bled or had difficulty walking because of a tie - just saying "well [I]my[/I] friends don't bleed from it" does not change the fact that there's a disparate amount of women having trouble wearing heels compared to men wearing ties. it's just a bad comparison.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50301931]Yes, there are a TON of work places that would reprimand (and fire) you for not wearing a tie.
[editline]11th May 2016[/editline]
So lay it out very clearly for me. What makes a rule that requires women to wear heels as part of their work 'uniform' sexist? Be very specific.[/QUOTE]
Because there are other professional shoes a woman can wear? A tie is a tie, shoes have more variety and forcing women to wear the most uncomfortable one for the sake of appearance is wrong.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50301954]They're a relatively uncomfortable item of clothing for a lot of people. Men aren't really forced to wear uncomfortable things. Why should women be? Flats, and short heels, are just as professional. The concept of "PROFESSIONAL" is very fluid anyways.[/QUOTE]
I get that we can not like that requirement or think that it's stupid, but that's VERY different than saying it's sexist.
[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;50299666]Do you sweat blood from your feet?[/QUOTE]
Yeah that looks like a sweaty sock, and it's probably bloody, but we still can't see her feet, or injuries on them. It could be blood. It could also be shoe polish leaking from sweat, or spilled wine, or a million other things.
I'm not saying it's not the case. I'm saying that a picture with the socks on doesn't show that it is. There's a fine, but important distinction between those two.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50301989]I get that we can not like that requirement or think that it's stupid, but that's VERY different than saying it's sexist.[/QUOTE]
Is it...?
Men wear slacks, polo's, button downs, and ties. None of that is uncomfortable in a serious way.
Women's dress requirements are usually black skirts, dresses, pantsuits, etcs, but in this case, and some others, heels are a requirement. In a job where you're walking down a hallway a few times a day, that's not a big deal, but in a job where you escort clients around the office all day like a receptionist does, that's very uncomfortable.
It seems to me, the standard is divided based on sex, nothing else. So, when women are made uncomfortable due to their dress codes requirements that's based on their sex, I guess that can't be sexism because you said so?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50302011]Is it...?
Men wear slacks, polo's, button downs, and ties. None of that is uncomfortable in a serious way.
Women's dress requirements are usually black skirts, dresses, pantsuits, etcs, but in this case, and some others, heels are a requirement. In a job where you're walking down a hallway a few times a day, that's not a big deal, but in a job where you escort clients around the office all day like a receptionist does, that's very uncomfortable.
It seems to me, the standard is divided based on sex, nothing else. So, when women are made uncomfortable due to their dress codes requirements that's based on their sex, I guess that can't be sexism because you said so?[/QUOTE]
I guess we have a different definition of sexism. I don't think that something being different on the basis of sex is necessarily sexist. For example, many workplaces require men to have their hair cut shorter, like the military. I don't see that as sexist against men. Do you?
I see sexism as doing something on the basis of a person of one sex being inferior or lesser than the other sex based on nothing more than their belonging to that sex. In this case, the expectation of heels seems to be based on social perception of certain clothing items, not the woman being lesser than the men.
High heels look incredibly ugly on top of murdering your feet, anybody who feels like they should be mandatory should spend a day staggering around in them.
They look okay when the heel is part of some boots or something, but the slipper type just looks atrocious.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;50300260]Looking good is actually pretty natural. We do it with clothes/hair, plenty of other animals give a fuck about their looks, and so do their partners. Especially birds. They will make shit or do shit to themselves, or do some dance, something that makes them look better compared to those around them.
If you sent someone in to a Macys to just get a set of business clothes, vs someone who had them all tailored made, the other person will look a lot better generally, lets say its the exact same person to make it easy.
Formal wear looks "sharp" not because of a social construct, its because we just KNOW what looks good/bad or a good hunk of a people do, if anything the only social construct are the words to describe it, not that it looks good. We really dont need to sit down and have a discussion whos dressed better, the guy frumpy pajamas vs a guy in a well made suit. The guy in the stained T-Shirt, or the guy in the ironed and clean one?
You wouldnt even think, if you saw those people lined up your brain would instantly click and realize who looked better and was better dressed.
A reason more businessy places like to have formal wear because it really does come off as them giving a shit and looking more prestigious, it does so because people figured out over periods of time what types of clothes give off this look.
That is why dresses havent been obsolete and probably never will.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/o6OLdtY.png[/img]
better dressed
right...
[QUOTE=sgman91;50301777]It's just an expectation that applies to women and not men because of historical trends in business attire, just like ties are for men. High heels are seen as being a higher level of formality than flats just like ties are seen as a higher level of formality than not wearing a tie. Also remember that heels =/= stilettos.[/QUOTE]
You can loosen a tie though
[editline]11th May 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=sgman91;50302041]For example, many workplaces require men to have their hair cut shorter, like the military. I don't see that as sexist against men. Do you?[/QUOTE]
That's because the alternative is long hair, which is hard to pull off in professional business attire.
The alternative to heels are flats, which are more comfortable and practical and don't make walking a chore in a job that requires frequent walking.
With cutting hair there's a clear, non-sex-based reason why it should be done. With heels, the rule is completely arbitrary.
Long hair isn't "hard" to pull off in professional business attire if it's well-kept. I know a lot of guys with hair past their shoulders who wear nice suits and it looks fine. The reason is that until recently long hair was generally seen as "hippie" and unprofessional by the conservatives who dominated the white collar world and still is by a lot of people.
For the longest time I had a bone fracture in my toe which caused pain/bad positioning in my leg and I was still made to wear formal shoes. Got the fragment removed eventually, but it made walking anywhere a nightmare.
how a reception is supposed to function for a 12 hr shift in high heels is disgusting.
she needs to get the law involved, in this country you can take it to court if your chair doesn't give you enough back support.. she has the right to a tribunal totally.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50303782]The reason is that until recently long hair was generally seen as "hippie" and unprofessional by the conservatives who dominated the white collar world and still is by a lot of people.[/QUOTE]
My reasoning for it being "hard to pull off" was the exact explanation you gave. A lot of people still think long hair is a grungy hippie thing to do, much like how most heavily tattooed people cover them up if they work in an office.
Flat shoes haven't been "hippie" or unprofessional in decades. I'm pointing out that yes, hair length is a rule that exists only for men, but it's not sexist because there's a legitimate understandable reason for it: it affects the company image and can negatively impact relationships with some clients. No one's going to be offended by a secretary wearing flats, and it won't ruin the company's reputation.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;50300260]Looking good is actually pretty natural. We do it with clothes/hair, plenty of other animals give a fuck about their looks, and so do their partners. Especially birds. They will make shit or do shit to themselves, or do some dance, something that makes them look better compared to those around them.
If you sent someone in to a Macys to just get a set of business clothes, vs someone who had them all tailored made, the other person will look a lot better generally, lets say its the exact same person to make it easy.
Formal wear looks "sharp" not because of a social construct, its because we just KNOW what looks good/bad or a good hunk of a people do, if anything the only social construct are the words to describe it, not that it looks good. We really dont need to sit down and have a discussion whos dressed better, the guy frumpy pajamas vs a guy in a well made suit. The guy in the stained T-Shirt, or the guy in the ironed and clean one?
You wouldnt even think, if you saw those people lined up your brain would instantly click and realize who looked better and was better dressed.
A reason more businessy places like to have formal wear because it really does come off as them giving a shit and looking more prestigious, it does so because people figured out over periods of time what types of clothes give off this look.
That is why dresses havent been obsolete and probably never will.[/QUOTE]
Did you even look at the the picture you quoted? That was formal and sleek before, now it's nothing but ridiculous, because cultural context is different.
[quote]We really dont need to sit down and have a discussion whos dressed better, the guy frumpy pajamas vs a guy in a well made suit[/quote]
Except this is literally what we do in fashion competitions and in many other situations. What about frumpy suit vs well made pajamas? The reality isn't so clear-cut.
If you're trying to argue that dress standards are objective, just the fact that people disagree with you proves you wrong. Let alone considering how much the standards change over time, as demonstrated in the picture.
[QUOTE=phygon;50300039]This may be a shock but not all high heels do that (or anything) to your feet. There are plenty that are just... shoes.[/QUOTE]
What made this story in particular stand out to me was that after she started suffering what you see in the photo, she requested to wear flats instead. The manager proceeded to berate her all day for switching to flats simply because they weren't part of the dress code, so on top of being forced to wear uncomfortable and painful footwear to the point that she started bleeding, she was made to feel like shit about it by her own management.
And while not [I]all[/I] heels do this (duh?), clearly some (possibly even most) can, and considering the job she was working (server at a restaurant, if memory serves), she would've been doing quite a bit of walking.
[editline]12th May 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Menien Goneld;50300926]Heels can look good and I understand why women choose to wear them sometimes. I've seen too many women walking around either barefoot or in tights on nights out with their heels in their hand though. They're obviously too difficult to walk in drunk, and are also too uncomfortable to wear for extended periods.
Saying nobody forced this particular person to work at this job is deliberately evasive of the problem. Heels are fucking stupid. As others have pointed out already, they can be severely damaging to a person's feet and the sooner we drop the social requirement for women to wear the bloody things the better.[/QUOTE]
Almost every older woman I've seen who has worn heels for a good portion of their life have the most bizarre, twisted and contorted feet/toes I've seen outside of Chinese foot-bindings, it's an incredibly strange thing that they subject themselves to.
if you think that the woman is being outrageous for refusing to wear heels for 9 hours, then you are clearly off your rocker and have never worn heels
i only did it once for a screenplay and it was about 2 hours and i felt like i was going to die
the fact that an ankle-destroying, toe-deforming shoe is the standard for what a woman should wear on the job is absolutely ridiculous, and you are undoubtedly sexist if you disagree that such a standard should be enforced simply because it is company policy. there's a big difference between dress standards of professional attire which [I]don't[/I] ruin your health, and ones that [I]do.[/I]
[QUOTE=aznz888;50306720]if you think that the woman is being outrageous for refusing to wear heels for 9 hours, then you are clearly off your rocker and have never worn heels
i only did it once for a screenplay and it was about 2 hours and i felt like i was going to die
the fact that an ankle-destroying, toe-deforming shoe is the standard for what a woman should wear on the job is absolutely ridiculous, and you are undoubtedly sexist if you disagree that such a standard should be enforced simply because it is company policy. there's a big difference between dress standards of professional attire which [I]don't[/I] ruin your health, and ones that [I]do.[/I][/QUOTE]
And now we wait for some weirdo to come in and claim "BUT MEN HAVE WIDER FEET THAN WOMEN THAT'S DIFFERENT".
[QUOTE=Last or First;50300210]Well, given the current job market, yeah, sometimes you can't be choosy with what job offers you get. And even if she did have a wide range of offers, similar jobs tend to have similar dress codes.
"Oh, sure, the dress code for this job is unnecessarily uncomfortable and sexist, but as long as we tell people about it it's fine, right? The problem isn't with our outdated dress code, it's with everyone else."[/QUOTE]
I'm not trying to blindly defend heels, I think they should do away with them (in the workplace, at least) as much as the next guy.
If temp jobs work in any way over in the UK like they do in the US, this lady could go back to the employment office and be working somewhere else the next day. I'm not saying that's the right thing to do, but it seems a fuck of a lot easier than starting a petitiion and fighting it
Good on her for taking the time and doing something about it
Might contradict what I said in my last few posts, I was in a pissy mood and was stupid enough to let it show in a thread about something completely irrelevant
I tried wearing heels when I was in early college to appear more professional, but if I'm not getting blisters on my toes, I'm getting the skin on the back of my ankles scraped up by the back of the heel because they're not made for comfort, nor are they made to be worn with any kind of socks and stockings rarely provide protection either.
Not to mention that people can certainly get spinal issues from the way the heels make them walk and the way their spine aligns as they do so. It's not immediately detectable like blood or blisters might be, but long term effects of high heels are definitely prevalent in people who wear them for many years.
I had to eventually switch to oxford-type shoes with professional menswear styled clothing because it was just more comfortable. And no job has rejected me thus far for coming to interviews in that sort of clothing either just because I'm a woman. As should be normal.
I wouldn't underestimate the negative effects of high heels just because some women don't complain about it. People have high tolerance to pain at times but that doesn't mean there are no detrimental effects to wearing high heels for such a long span of time. Flats can be just as nice and just as professional as long as they're kept clean like any other type of shoe.
Expecting a woman to wear high heels for such a long shift at any professional white-collar job is ridiculous and almost archaic, honestly.
Dress codes make sense but they should keep the comfort of the employee in mind. It's fucking bullshit that some employees would have to destroy their back and their feet more than other employees.
And since it'd be even more retarded to force everyone to wear high heels and fuck themselves up, only course of action is to just allow everyone to wear shoes that are actually fit for a job involving lots of walking.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;50307947]only course of action is to just allow everyone to wear shoes that are actually fit for a job involving lots of walking.[/QUOTE]
I support Jerry Seinfeld's white sneakers entering the business fashion scene
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;50307947]Dress codes make sense but they should keep the comfort of the employee in mind. It's fucking bullshit that some employees would have to destroy their back and their feet more than other employees.
And since it'd be even more retarded to force everyone to wear high heels and fuck themselves up, only course of action is to just allow everyone to wear shoes that are actually fit for a job involving lots of walking.[/QUOTE]
I am of the view high heels should be phased out. I do not like the looks or them and nor are they good for people.
[QUOTE=Dayzofwinter;50311337]I am of the view high heels should be phased out. I do not like the looks or them and nor are they good for people.[/QUOTE]
tall shoes in general are stupid
i mean look at the platform heels of the 80s, what an absolute fashion disaster that turned out to be
What fucking bullshit. I've heard about similar case in Poland. This is unacceptable. High heels are not something like a dress or business jacket that you can wear and forget about them. They are uncomfortable. No one should be forced to wear them.
I really hope you can sue for this.
[QUOTE=Dayzofwinter;50311337]I am of the view high heels should be phased out. I do not like the looks or them and nor are they good for people.[/QUOTE]
I know people who like wearing heels, they just don't like being forced to wear them in shitty situations where heels are the most impractical shit you can wear.
I used to think high heels were kinda hot because they lift the butt but a long time ago I saw an xray of feet in heels and now they actually turn me off. Heels should definitely not be a requirement regardless.
Well the good news is the company in question here proved they were the back-down kings and have apparently adjusted their dress code not even a full day after this blew up on the Internet.
Though that doesn't really explain why they thought it was a good idea in the first place.
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