[QUOTE=Gorgus;51974568]It's not delusional, he's not only trying to rile up turks against the country they're living to get votes for his referendum, he's also trying to weaken europe.
I mean, he's not the only one doing that. Look how Putin for example is pushing the Front National, a party that openly wants France to leave the EU and introduce protectionism.
You're acting like this is some tin foil hat level conspiracy theory while other leaders are doing the same, don't be naive.[/QUOTE]
no you're right, populism is engineered by those who wish to take over the world, sorry for my naivety.
[QUOTE=gokiyono;51974573]Dude, what?[/QUOTE]
He edited his post just before I made mine, he said Erdogan trying to destabilize Europe by making far right parties stronger is just a crazy conspiracy theory.
[QUOTE=gokiyono;51974573]Dude, what?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE] Of course, our retard population came up with shit like "We've had enough of experts" and honestly, most of them were hoping that if we left the EU, we could make Great Britain great again, where we could have an empire, and laugh at germany for loosing two wars and being fascist a long time ago, and tell france to fuck itself, and be friends with trump, and nothing would happen to all those brits in europe with their summer houses in spain. And we can laugh at countries like latvia for being small and having relatively no impact on history because we're britain and we'd always be the best. And we'd be so safe and secure from muslims, in fact, all the muslimamic folks would just disapear, and all the poles would become british, and british bulldogs wouldn't have breathing problems, and would be 10x more adorable than french bulldogs. [/QUOTE]
remain rhetoric is fucking tiresome and embarrassing..
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51974415]The European welfare systems would more than provide for these large families. That is the whole point. Why do you think Muslims continue to migrate there? They know they will just be able to take advantage of free shit. Even if living on welfare isn't luxurious, it's better than living in Turkey for a lot of people. On top of that, some welfare systems "reward" you when you have more kids.
This is what we have been complaining about. Erdogan has simply spelled out the strategy.[/QUOTE]
- We rarely 'more than provide for'. We're not that kind. Why do I feel you still have issues with the Red scare? Having more kids usually gives you about as much as it takes for an extra kid, so unless you're some sick fuck that'd starve your breadwining kids for gormet food (we have child services, might I add)then there isn't really much incentive.
-Laws adapt around exploits in our systems. Even if they're evil, our goverments are often competent.
-Muslims continue to migrate here because the economies here are mostly good and a fair few of their countries were blown to shit and destabilized (America is much of the fault here)
-Muslim beliefs are practically benevolent with money. They're the largest givers to charity, they're massive on supporting the poor, they dislike ostentation, and they're not allowed to charge interest on money (which was a rule initially in judaism and Christianity, but the jews thought it didn't apply to non-jews, and the christians dropped it so bankers could be powerful)
[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51974608]remain rhetoric is fucking tiresome and embarrassing..[/QUOTE]
But none of that is wrong? Albeit a bit exaggerated.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51974519]Why do women do it then?[/QUOTE]
His claim wasn't that welfare abuse doesn't exist, but that it's nowhere near the scale implied. In a society where people are making choices, it's a given that it will happen to an extent.
It sucks that it exists, but typically when people investigate to find out how large scale the issue is, they come up with "hardly at all."
[sp]in the interest of fairness i'm speaking for america and UK. it could be different for continental europe iunno lmao. A cursory google search doesn't really suggest that though[/sp]
Lebensraum for Erdogan's ubermenschen.
[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51974608]remain rhetoric is fucking tiresome and embarrassing..[/QUOTE]
let's talk leave rhetoric then
[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51876607]you guys are under the illusion that every single thing in life can be quantified by a fucking graph.
what about feelings and thoughts[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51974680]His claim wasn't that welfare abuse doesn't exist, but that it's nowhere near the scale implied. In a society where people are making choices, it's a given that it will happen to an extent.
It sucks that it exists, but typically when people investigate to find out how large scale the issue is, they come up with "hardly at all."
[sp]in the interest of fairness i'm speaking for america and UK. it could be different for continental europe iunno lmao. A cursory google search doesn't really suggest that though[/sp][/QUOTE]
My point isn't that this is welfare "abuse". It is a design of the system that is taken advantage of by these migrants.
[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51974583]no you're right, populism is engineered by those who wish to take over the world, sorry for my naivety.[/QUOTE]
Populism is engineered to win people over when other policies a leader might have suck for them.
Example
Leader A will enrich the working and middle classes, raise wages, tax the rich some more, and remain nuetral on social issues. He'll support humanitarian efforts, despite how unpopular they are in some circles, he thinks they're the best thing in the long run.
Leader B will fuck your entire family with his economic policies and you won't be able to afford bread for the next week, but he assures you that it's the fault of brown people, that he'll take action against the brown people, and it's not your fault for voting for him because you're a good citizen of appropriate race and the culture he promotes.
Most populist shit, at least the bad kind, is right wing.
Most of the stuff you should care about is related to money. Most problems come down to how much money there is. Crime is a lot lower if people don't feel the need to move outside the law for good funds. Ethnic tension goes down if you're all treated equally because you're all as rich and not more likely to be a poor criminal for having X skin.
But yeah, you're poor because of poor brown people stealing shit jobs, You're better because you're a nuclear family, and you deserve more. neo-liberalism, which you accept because it came packaged with your fucking values, is not at all the reason why you're poor, honest.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51974709]My point isn't that this is welfare "abuse". It is a design of the system that is taken advantage of by these migrants.[/QUOTE]
Well, true, that doesn't fall under the definition technically.
Do you have evidence this is a large scale, damaging problem though? If you do then you'd have a stronger case for tightening up the welfare state, at least for immigrants/refugees, or otherwise recouping costs.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51974740]Well, true, that doesn't fall under the definition technically.
Do you have evidence this is a large scale, damaging problem though? If you do then you'd have a stronger case for tightening up the welfare state, at least for immigrants/refugees, or otherwise recouping costs.[/QUOTE]
My argument isn't to tighten up the welfare state. I think the welfare state works great in Europe, but only when the society is homogeneous and share the same cultural values. Bringing in all these different people breaks down the whole system.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51974782]My argument isn't to tighten up the welfare state. I think the welfare state works great in Europe, but only when the society is homogeneous and share the same cultural values. Bringing in all these different people breaks down the whole system.[/QUOTE]
You guys in the US could have the same insurances, the same welfare, the same free medical health care that we have in Germany. It's possible. Technically. If it wasn't for the "(DEMOCRATIC) SOCIALISM IS BAD" indoctrination and hatemongering, the severe lobbyism and many other things.
As said before, Islam has some really healthy beliefs when it comes to money. While one or two might not be great muslims and be the exception to that rule, and it's very compatible with welfare state.
Also. England (not britain, England) alone isn't a homogenous society, even if you took out anyone who is less than 4 generations in. Every city has a different accent, and the difference between lower,middle and upper class values are extreme. There's a north/ south divide, and let's not get in to the Scots and the welsh and the generations.
We've got tons of difference with just that, so a bunch of different ethnic groups isn't going to shake shit.
Also, you can totally put effort into assimilating migrants if you don't freak out about them all the time.
And yeah, the Red scare, and later islamic terror, fucked your country good. Your nation has spent 90% of it's history at war with something or other. Every time you were assimilating something new into your culture, it wasn't because you eased them in, it was because you took them to war with you and put them in the same platoons, and that's not even a full job a lot of the time.
You've always got an enemy and it's legal to [del]bribe[/del] lobby with vast amounts of resources. If you stopped looking outward, you could look inward.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51974782]My argument isn't to tighten up the welfare state. I think the welfare state works great in Europe, but only when the society is homogeneous and share the same cultural values. Bringing in all these different people breaks down the whole system.[/QUOTE]
This is based on what?
[editline]17th March 2017[/editline]
Every actual study into this argument that I've ever seen has pretty much said "this is an abuse case that technically exists but in reality happens so rarely that we might as well consider it non-existant."
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51974415]The European welfare systems would more than provide for these large families. That is the whole point. Why do you think Muslims continue to migrate there? They know they will just be able to take advantage of free shit. Even if living on welfare isn't luxurious, it's better than living in Turkey for a lot of people. On top of that, some welfare systems "reward" you when you have more kids.
This is what we have been complaining about. Erdogan has simply spelled out the strategy.[/QUOTE]
You get money for each child, true. But not enough to support them. Children are considered extremely expensive in western Europe. You cannot live comfortably or raise a child normally on just welfare. The kids would be better off in Turkey then. Living conditions are still good there.
Everybody is playing checkers while Erdogan is playing chess.
Note: Ataturk
[QUOTE=LaTrefle;51987526]Everybody is playing checkers while Erdogan is playing chess.
Note: Ataturk[/QUOTE]
Ataturk was the opposite of Erdogan in terms of political and social reform.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51974680]His claim wasn't that welfare abuse doesn't exist, but that it's nowhere near the scale implied. In a society where people are making choices, it's a given that it will happen to an extent.
It sucks that it exists, but typically when people investigate to find out how large scale the issue is, they come up with "hardly at all."
[sp]in the interest of fairness i'm speaking for america and UK. it could be different for continental europe iunno lmao. A cursory google search doesn't really suggest that though[/sp][/QUOTE]
It would be pretty disadvantageous to try it here, I think.
The amount of money you normally get per child doesn't offset the cost of raising them properly, so the family would just end up in poverty for likely at least two generations (since this usually also affects the children's prospects in terms of education).
Of course poverty here is less grave than in the US due to social security services, but even they only provide what is considered a decent minimum.
If you want something actually decent here, you need to either be wealthy from the get-go or work for it a lot.
Erdogan is an idiot but even if his "plan" does happen somehow it doesn't seem like it would be that big a deal.
Literal Turkroach
[QUOTE=Kljunas;51990978]Erdogan is an idiot but even if his "plan" does happen somehow it doesn't seem like it would be that big a deal.[/QUOTE]
I think that's why he's suggesting it so openly, because most people in this thread don't actually care.
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