• Microsoft Makes Windows 10 'Free Upgrades' Worse
    240 replies, posted
[QUOTE=da space core;49343879]You would be surprised. First, in the case of graphics drivers, you need drivers for Windows 10, you cant get by with windows 8 drivers and expect everything to work flawlessly. And while most generic devices have generic drivers, it isnt perfect. I recall I installed windows 10 preview on an old dell laptop. The laptop was old but worked fine. However, windows 10 didnt know how to use the laptops brightness sensor correctly, making the screen ridiculously dark. I had to use a flashlight to light up the screen, and get to the device manager to uninstall the brightness sensor driver[/QUOTE] Ah okay, laptops have more obscure hardware. Graphics drivers do work in my experience though, and regardless, you'd be looking at older than the 8000 series on the Nvidia side to not have W10 drivers, older than HD 5000 for AMD or older than SandyBridge on Intel. At least for AMD or Nvidia that's 10+ years old, Intel is much more recent admittedly, but anecdotally I know Win 8.1 drivers to work there too. You lose WDDM 2 which is required for DX12 but outside of that it should work. Again, the only time it was broken badly was with Vista.
[QUOTE=Ridge;49348272]Still, people use Windows because it's simple. If they have to do all this shit just so it has basic functionality, they might as well be running Linux.[/QUOTE] Windows isn't simple, not by a long mile. It's just became one of the major de facto operating systems and most people understand how to use it because they started on it early, if you're not a power user of sorts, Windows can still/is a very daunting and confusing operating system. If you want simple, go use an OS that is designed for a single, simple purpose like turning a switch on and off or go use WordStar on DOS, that's really as simple as an "modern" OS gets.
[QUOTE=Reagy;49348832]Windows isn't simple, not by a long mile. It's just became one of the major de facto operating systems and most people understand how to use it because they started on it early, if you're not a power user of sorts, Windows can still/is a very daunting and confusing operating system. If you want simple, go use an OS that is designed for a single, simple purpose like turning a switch on and off or go use WordStar on DOS, that's really as simple as an "modern" OS gets.[/QUOTE] Mac OS is a simple os want to install shit drag application into drop point
[QUOTE=Reagy;49348832]Windows isn't simple, not by a long mile. It's just became one of the major de facto operating systems and most people understand how to use it because they started on it early, if you're not a power user of sorts, Windows can still/is a very daunting and confusing operating system. If you want simple, go use an OS that is designed for a single, simple purpose like turning a switch on and off or go use WordStar on DOS, that's really as simple as an "modern" OS gets.[/QUOTE] Windows is convoluted as shit for power users too. It just gets less simple the higher your proficiency is.
[QUOTE=FlakTheMighty;49344368]It's because you're on OEM. The upgrade to Windows 10 wasn't free for OEM copies unless you download an ISO and install as an upgrade, then it'll register just fine.[/QUOTE] Not true, I upgraded from a Windows 7 Home OEM installation
Ahh, the reason I turn Windows Update completely off within five minutes of first booting Windows up. Microsoft can't do this to me because the updates they use to do it never get searched for, much less downloaded and installed!
i'm gobsmacked at how many people in this thread aren't just taking a "i dont see anything wrong with this" angle, but some are openly encouraging this behavior because according to them you shouldn't be allowed to stay on an older OS if you want to what the fuck fuck off microsoft im not updating
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49335281]Congratulations, that's exactly what's happening with 7 and 8, and fucking frankly I'm one of them. After what happened with Windows 10 I am absolutely not going to upgrade ever. Hell no. I know you're just fucking around, but given what I experienced I totally wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. Windows 10 tried scrubbing my entire drive and uploading almost a gigabyte worth of data through the normal telemetry shit, I caught it with wireshark and I went nope, not happening and forcibly aborted Windows 10 from my hard drive. I'm not sure what happened there, but I do have some sensitive/questionable stuff so it was just one of those "hm, that is fucking strange," moments where I decided to nuke everything just to be safe. I'm told that the normal telemetry data should not even be anywhere near that amount, given the nature of my situation and it's rarity I'm incredibly suspicious of all of it and I absolutely do not trust Microsoft at all.[/QUOTE] If that is true then I will not allow Win10 in my network at all. Not everyone have symmetrical internet you know, and because of bufferbloat, even uploading several MB of file will increase latency to several thousand ms for several minutes, which can make me lose in any competitiveish game like dota 2 And no, Win10 doesn't have any tabbed file manager or sane command line, so I will not dual boot windows 10 soon, although I have an empty partition in my laptop with a working Win7 home basic OEM key
[QUOTE=Abaddon-ext4;49353798]If that is true then I will not allow Win10 in my network at all. Not everyone have symmetrical internet you know, and because of bufferbloat, even uploading several MB of file will increase latency to several thousand ms for several minutes, which can make me lose in any competitiveish game like dota 2 And no, Win10 doesn't have any tabbed file manager or sane command line, so I will not dual boot windows 10 soon, although I have an empty partition in my laptop with a working Win7 home basic OEM key[/QUOTE] There is likely an reasonale explaination as to why a very large file would have been uploaded, but we may never really know because the way MS handles this stuff. I'm not denying it happening, but these cases should be rare, so much so to say it's more of an uncaught error. Shit happens when you rush an OS out the door
From what I've read some time ago, Microsoft apparently announced that all computers will be upgraded to Windows 10 come New Year.
I can only imagine the nightmare this could cause if this nightmare is pushed on to even Cash register computers that still use XP. If Microsoft isn't careful, they could cause a financial problem.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49335281]I know you're just fucking around, but given what I experienced I totally wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. Windows 10 tried scrubbing my entire drive and uploading almost a gigabyte worth of data through the normal telemetry shit, I caught it with wireshark and I went nope, not happening and forcibly aborted Windows 10 from my hard drive. I'm not sure what happened there, but I do have some sensitive/questionable stuff so it was just one of those "hm, that is fucking strange," moments where I decided to nuke everything just to be safe. I'm told that the normal telemetry data should not even be anywhere near that amount, given the nature of my situation and it's rarity I'm incredibly suspicious of all of it and I absolutely do not trust Microsoft at all.[/QUOTE] Are you sure that wasn't some sort of really big crash dump being uploaded or something?
[QUOTE=dustyjo;49354516]Are you sure that wasn't some sort of really big crash dump being uploaded or something?[/QUOTE]Man... what the fuck would even make a crash dump be 900MB? Plus there was no event that would even precipitate a logging of crash data, so I'm not sure why such a thing would even need to be uploaded. There's no reasonable explanation for that amount of data being transferred, and now I'm kicking myself for not investigating further and saving my findings. Now I guess I'll never really know, instead I panicked and did the data equivalent of burning down my house to kill a spider. [editline]20th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Abaddon-ext4;49353798]If that is true then I will not allow Win10 in my network at all. Not everyone have symmetrical internet you know, and because of bufferbloat, even uploading several MB of file will increase latency to several thousand ms for several minutes, which can make me lose in any competitiveish game like dota 2[/QUOTE]Well, see, I have 10GB of data I can use per month before my speeds are throttled down to basically 56k levels, so that little incident blew through a tenth of that. I was really pissed. [QUOTE=Scratch.;49353932]There is likely an reasonale explaination as to why a very large file would have been uploaded, but we may never really know because the way MS handles this stuff. I'm not denying it happening, but these cases should be rare, so much so to say it's more of an uncaught error. Shit happens when you rush an OS out the door[/QUOTE]I mean there [I]probably[/I] is a bug that caused it but the fact remains it made me extremely uncomfortable. I mean I had everything turned off anyway and still Win10 was like "lol fuck what you want I am in control now" so it had to go based on that alone. Even 7 gets pissy with me because I've gutted things like BITS from even starting up and I watch my connection like a hawk now. It's just one of those things that have actually upset me and made me extremely spiteful. I'm not going to lie to you and say that I'm over it or that I'm not "looking over my shoulder" now, and I'd punch whichever son of a bitch is responsible for coming up with this mess square in the mouth if I could.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49335281]Congratulations, that's exactly what's happening with 7 and 8, and fucking frankly I'm one of them. After what happened with Windows 10 I am absolutely not going to upgrade ever. Hell no. I know you're just fucking around, but given what I experienced I totally wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. Windows 10 tried scrubbing my entire drive and uploading almost a gigabyte worth of data through the normal telemetry shit, I caught it with wireshark and I went nope, not happening and forcibly aborted Windows 10 from my hard drive. I'm not sure what happened there, but I do have some sensitive/questionable stuff so it was just one of those "hm, that is fucking strange," moments where I decided to nuke everything just to be safe. I'm told that the normal telemetry data should not even be anywhere near that amount, given the nature of my situation and it's rarity I'm incredibly suspicious of all of it and I absolutely do not trust Microsoft at all.[/QUOTE] Windows 10 has a P2P update system, where you are used to upload updates you have to other Windows 10 systems on your network and on the internet. If you haven't turned that setting off, then that seems like a likely candidate for the large upload you saw. [img]http://i.imgur.com/J9Ds38w.png[/img]
[QUOTE=ultradude25;49354865]Windows 10 has a P2P update system, where you are used to upload updates you have to other Windows 10 systems on your network and on the internet. If you haven't turned that setting off, then that seems like a likely candidate for the large upload you saw.[/QUOTE]This is what was on the network: Old tower running XP Desktop running Windows 7 Pro (BITS disabled) Laptop running Windows 10 (computer in question) Desktop running Ubuntu Again I had [I]everything[/I] related to updates turned off, which includes this shit. [editline]20th December 2015[/editline] I mean I could be entirely mistaken about this but I'm pretty sure Windows 10 can't get updates from a peer on the network that's running XP, or from one that literally cannot send data, or from a goddamn Linux machine.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49354940] I mean I could be entirely mistaken about this but I'm pretty sure Windows 10 can't get updates from a peer on the network that's running XP, or from one that literally cannot send data, or from a goddamn Linux machine.[/QUOTE] The P2P system can also fetch/push updates from/to machines outside your network, I.E any Windows 10 system in the world with the option enabled. Considering you had updates disabled completely, that shouldn't have been the case though. I've also disabled the P2P system, seems pretty inevitable that someone somewhere will figure out how to push out malware with it
[QUOTE=Rixxz2;49361435]The P2P system can also fetch/push updates from/to machines outside your network, I.E any Windows 10 system in the world with the option enabled. Considering you had updates disabled completely, that shouldn't have been the case though. I've also disabled the P2P system, seems pretty inevitable that someone somewhere will figure out how to push out malware with it[/QUOTE] its this kind of post that proves scaretactics work. If this were the case, people would have been doing it via bittorrent for ages now.
[QUOTE=Abaddon-ext4;49353798]If that is true then I will not allow Win10 in my network at all. Not everyone have symmetrical internet you know, and because of bufferbloat, even uploading several MB of file will increase latency to several thousand ms for several minutes, which can make me lose in any competitiveish game like dota 2 And no, Win10 doesn't have any tabbed file manager or sane command line, so I will not dual boot windows 10 soon, although I have an empty partition in my laptop with a working Win7 home basic OEM key[/QUOTE] Windows has uploaded a grand total of 150 MiB this month. I haven't seen it go past 5 KiB/s so unless you are on dialup your DotA game will be fine.
[QUOTE=Rixxz2;49361435]The P2P system can also fetch/push updates from/to machines outside your network, I.E any Windows 10 system in the world with the option enabled. Considering you had updates disabled completely, that shouldn't have been the case though.[/QUOTE]So what's stopping people from tampering with the updates their machine is passing out? [QUOTE=Map in a box;49365939]its this kind of post that proves scaretactics work. If this were the case, people would have been doing it via bittorrent for ages now.[/QUOTE]So you're telling me there [I]isn't[/I] a risk of infecting my computer when I illegally download a pirated game? Yeah you're probably right, there aren't any bad people on the internet who would do terrible things!
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49366479]So what's stopping people from tampering with the updates their machine is passing out? So you're telling me there [I]isn't[/I] a risk of infecting my computer when I illegally download a pirated game? Yeah you're probably right, there aren't any bad people on the internet who would do terrible things![/QUOTE] You should research before you start spouting untrue things. The only way that would be possible is if Microsoft pushed an update that had malware.
I turned off windows updates ages ago because of this shit.
[QUOTE=Map in a box;49366871]You should research before you start spouting untrue things. The only way that would be possible is if Microsoft pushed an update that had malware.[/QUOTE]Microsoft would never do that though, they're an all-American company that puts out safe and secure products.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49366969]Microsoft would never do that though, they're an all-American company that puts out safe and secure products.[/QUOTE] Holy shit man. [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49366479]So what's stopping people from tampering with the updates their machine is passing out?[/QUOTE] Signed files with certificates provided by authority File hashes for integrity check I'm done explaining
[QUOTE=Sonic4Ever;49366998]Signed files with certificates provided by authority File hashes for integrity check I'm done explaining[/QUOTE] In this very thread, a mere two pages ago: [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49335281]I absolutely do not trust Microsoft at all.[/QUOTE] I had a feeling this exchange would be far above some people's capacity for recognizing subtle humor. [editline]ahahaha[/editline] [QUOTE=Scratch.;49367066]Not only is this statement objectively wrong, it's so stupid that I'm actually impressed[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49366969]Microsoft would never do that though, they're an all-American company that puts out safe and secure products.[/QUOTE] Not only is this statement objectively wrong, it's so stupid that I'm actually impressed [editline]22nd December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49367046] I had a feeling this exchange would be far above some people's capacity for recognizing subtle humor. [noparse][editline]ahahaha[/editline][/noparse][/QUOTE] I'm sorry I must mistook this as a real statement instead of quite seriously pretending to be retarded for laughs on the internet if you want people to actually take your thoughts and concerns seriously, be proper about it, because it quite honestly makes you look like an idiot, and users lose respect for you and the things you want to say
[QUOTE=Scratch.;49367066]I'm sorry I must mistook this as a real statement instead of quite seriously pretending to be retarded for laughs on the internet if you want people to actually take your thoughts and concerns seriously, be proper about it, because it quite honestly makes you look like an idiot, and users lose respect for you and the things you want to say[/QUOTE]No what happened here was you didn't even bother to scroll up. You thought I was some dumb shithead who literally thought Microsoft was an "all-American company" despite somehow missing the fact that their tech support has been outsourced since 1993. That alone makes the statement false, and given my previous troubles with the company wouldn't you think that somebody who would make such a blatantly sycophantic statement would immediately call up tech support? Posts 216, 218, 219, and 221 were all filled with misinformation, and they weren't all mine either. This is called a conversation, an "exchange" if you will, between two people. Post 218 (mine) even contained a suspicion about the security of the P2P system that Matthew0505 saw and addressed in the post below yours. So there was a blatant clue [I]in one of the posts in question[/I] that none of this was serious and you, in your zeal to be right about something on the internet, somehow missed that. Now you're angry because you were caught in a moment where you weren't clever at all and the guy you were trying to one-up was the one who did it. Normal, healthy people go, "haha, goddamn I'm glad you're not literally a moron," and then shake their head at the absurdity of the situation. Your response was to instead say if I want people to take my completely farcical posts seriously then I should "be proper about it." No, I think if I want to people to take such statements seriously I should continue doing what I'm doing since you and Sonic4Ever have both taken them quite literally. [editline]22nd December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Matthew0505;49368930]The fact that they don't have the private key needed to make a cryptographic hash.[/QUOTE]While that's probably not any more insecure than the company just pumping the data out themselves I [I]feel[/I] like it is. I suppose since we live in a time when theft of corporate data and deliberate leaks of sensitive information is becoming more and more common my faith in things like that has been diminished. Holy shit haha, imagine if China slipped in something that basically gave them a back door to every single computer running Windows 10. I mean cyberattacks like that are completely within their capabilities because they've hit basically all the biggest defense contractors in the country with success, hell, they even hit [I]our own government[/I] and got away scott free. We're living in a cyberpunk future man, it's crazy.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49366479]So what's stopping people from tampering with the updates their machine is passing out?[/QUOTE] oh idk just the entire concept of cryptographic signing that we've used with no issue for the last couple of decades? for someone to actually "hijack" the MS update network they'd need access to the key that signs the updates. they don't have access to that key because [I]you don't keep your private key in a public place[/I]. you're just being obtusely paranoid here. [editline]22nd December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49367046]I had a feeling this exchange would be far above some people's capacity for recognizing subtle humor.[/QUOTE] there's a difference between "subtle humor" and being a fucking idiot on the internet to try and prove some absurd point
[QUOTE=hexpunK;49369988]oh idk just the entire concept of cryptographic signing that we've used with no issue for the last couple of decades? for someone to actually "hijack" the MS update network they'd need access to the key that signs the updates.[/QUOTE]This guy did it better than you did: [QUOTE=Matthew0505;49368930]The fact that they don't have the private key needed to make a cryptographic hash.[/QUOTE]Here's my response to what he said:[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49369961]While that's probably not any more insecure than the company just pumping the data out themselves I [I]feel[/I] like it is. I suppose [B]since we live in a time when theft of corporate data and deliberate leaks of sensitive information is becoming more and more common[/B] my faith in things like that has been diminished.[/QUOTE] I've put the really, really important part in bold and there's more on that below too. [QUOTE=hexpunK;49369988]they don't have access to that key because [I]you don't keep your private key in a public place[/I].[/QUOTE]Yeah I guess because they don't post it on Fast Threads I guess nobody can use the key. Hey everyone! Theft, disgruntled employees, and simple human fuckups don't exist anymore we can all go home now. [QUOTE=hexpunK;49369988]you're just being obtusely paranoid here.[/QUOTE]??? Who's being paranoid exactly? I asked a fucking question kiddo, settle the fuck down. [QUOTE=hexpunK;49369988]there's a difference between "subtle humor" and being a fucking idiot on the internet to try and prove some absurd point[/QUOTE][I]What point?[/I] That Microsoft has had problems in the past before? Like pretty much every other major corporation? Oh holy dicks you got me, that's something that I totally shouldn't make fun of ever I'm so sorry for that!
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49369961]No what happened here was you didn't even bother to scroll up. You thought I was some dumb shithead who literally thought Microsoft was an "all-American company" despite somehow missing the fact that their tech support has been outsourced since 1993. That alone makes the statement false, and given my previous troubles with the company wouldn't you think that somebody who would make such a blatantly sycophantic statement would immediately call up tech support? Posts 216, 218, 219, and 221 were all filled with misinformation, and they weren't all mine either. This is called a conversation, an "exchange" if you will, between two people. Post 218 (mine) even contained a suspicion about the security of the P2P system that Matthew0505 saw and addressed in the post below yours. So there was a blatant clue [I]in one of the posts in question[/I] that none of this was serious and you, in your zeal to be right about something on the internet, somehow missed that. Now you're angry because you were caught in a moment where you weren't clever at all and the guy you were trying to one-up was the one who did it. Normal, healthy people go, "haha, goddamn I'm glad you're not literally a moron," and then shake their head at the absurdity of the situation. Your response was to instead say if I want people to take my completely farcical posts seriously then I should "be proper about it." No, I think if I want to people to take such statements seriously I should continue doing what I'm doing since you and Sonic4Ever have both taken them quite literally. [editline]22nd December 2015[/editline] While that's probably not any more insecure than the company just pumping the data out themselves I [I]feel[/I] like it is. I suppose since we live in a time when theft of corporate data and deliberate leaks of sensitive information is becoming more and more common my faith in things like that has been diminished. Holy shit haha, imagine if China slipped in something that basically gave them a back door to every single computer running Windows 10. I mean cyberattacks like that are completely within their capabilities because they've hit basically all the biggest defense contractors in the country with success, hell, they even hit [I]our own government[/I] and got away scott free. We're living in a cyberpunk future man, it's crazy.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure if you're still going with this "I'm just pretending to be retarded" thing but you're still going with it. [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49370149][I]What point?[/I] That Microsoft has had problems in the past before? Like pretty much every other major corporation? Oh holy dicks you got me, that's something that I totally shouldn't make fun of ever I'm so sorry for that![/QUOTE] Is this also part of the joke? I don't get it. I don't have a hard-on for Microsoft (in fact I think Microsoft has been fucking up since Windows 8) but you're making it sound like if no one thinks your humor is funny they're fanatical about Microsoft, which is stupid. And then you're still rolling with the "things are insecure" thing, like an employee is going to stop at revealing how to make customer's computers spit out infected updates that bypass signature checks for other computers that are trying to update even though P2P doesn't work like the way you're suggesting anyway. Even past security checks (signature changes, file-size checks), how can you guarantee that they're going to get enough of the figurative pieces to your puzzle to get the malware? Everything about what you're saying sounds like you don't get technology - you're just paranoid about something without being properly informed.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49370316]By default I didn't think you were fucking around and thought you were being stupid, but that's because your humor failed terribly. And I'm still going to say it isn't humor because you're not stopping with it. "Hey guys, I'm just trying to say Microsoft literally can't be perfect what are you some MEGAFANS? I'm just trying to say there isn't a difference between downloading an infected copy of GTA5 off of KickassTorrents and downloading an update from Windows because some people could hack it or be mad!!!"[/QUOTE]See this is why I'm not sure you even understand what's going on, you took the entire concept and then mixed in bits from the actually not-serious posts and made this mess. Is there a risk from downloading a torrent for GTA5 that has a filesize of 30MB? Yes. There is. Is there a risk from downloading an update from Microsoft? [I]Possibly?[/I] I mean I don't know, I can see how it could be compromised. I don't know if that's probable though. Is there a risk from doing anything online? Yes. Is downloading a torrent for a cracked game literally the exact same as downloading an update from a professional software company? Absolutely not. Has Windows 10 had bugs? Yeah, I've experienced a huge one already. Is this out of the ordinary for an OS release? Absolutely not. Everyone's forgotten what XP was like and that's one of the "good" versions that people talk about. Is this whole thing hilarious? Well I'm laughing at everyone for getting so goddamn bent out of shape here. As amusing as this is it's getting a little off-topic, but I'm more than willing to keep going "wow you are this mad about this okay" in PMs with you guys though.
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