• UK MP criticizes perceived lack of women in video game industry
    72 replies, posted
[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;40456067]Yeah because its totally the 1990s still. You may as well join those retards who think videogames can't be an an art form on the level of film or books because doom.[/QUOTE] Yeah, but shit hasn't exactly changed much from then either.
[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;40456067]Yeah because its totally the 1990s still. You may as well join those retards who think videogames can't be an an art form on the level of film or books because doom.[/QUOTE] Fuck that. Doom is art.
similar things are happening in the motorsport world, especially engineering side, companies pushing for more female engineers mean while on my engineering course at uni, out of 50 students 1 is female
[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;40455966]And even if the industry itself was sexist internally (please give me some examples because I have never heard a female dev complain)[/quote] [url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2012/nov/28/games-industry-sexism-on-twitter[/url] [url]http://kotaku.com/5963528/heres-a-devastating-account-of-the-crap-women-in-the-games-business-have-to-deal-with-in-2012[/url] There are too many tweets to read all of them, but it ranges from having a good old whine because it's the in thing to do, to harassment that is not exclusive to women, to some things that if they are genuine are sexism. [quote]why not just develope games independent?[/QUOTE] There is no rebuttal against this other than that some people are not really cut out to go independent. Also that even if there is an alternative means of getting into the industry through this method it does not excuse the existence of discrimination in the non-independent sector of the industry.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;40456090]Yeah, but shit hasn't exactly changed much from then either.[/QUOTE] In what way(s)? We've got a long way to go, but the industry as a whole has made a [I]staggering[/I] amount of progress in the last 20 years.
[QUOTE=nikomo;40455514]the woman in that situation is usually being a massive fucking attention-whore[/QUOTE] Geez. As long as people can tell your gender, there's [I]always[/I] gonna be people who think that just making the fact that you're a woman is attention-whoring :/ [QUOTE=yumyumshisha;40455588]I feel that this number might increase as the mobile/"casual" gaming industry gains more traction and there is a movement away from games like DoA and Bayonetta for example. I feel like the SUPER sexist games are concentrated geographically (i.e. Japan), although admittedly there have been games like GTA/Tomb Raider in other areas of the world. Once video games become established as an activity suitable for both sexes, the stigma might be reduced.[/QUOTE] well then you got the people saying "wimminz play casual games they're not ~real gamers~" [editline]28th April 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Riutet;40456000]I would like to see some evidence that it's women being dissuaded from going into the videogames industry because of the attitudes of men within that industry, or whether it's a case of them just not being on average as interested in the industry as men. I have seen various things like that #1reasonwhy thing but never actually anything rigorous, just anecdotal evidence the same you would find anywhere else.[/QUOTE] The overwhelming amount of stories isn't enough? Really? [QUOTE=Riutet;40456000]I cannot speak for others, but I genuinely do not care if other people were gonna discriminate against me if I went into a particular field, if I care about the field I am going into it, if you are so easily turned away from a field because you think people might discriminate against you, you need to question whether you care enough about that field to even go into it.[/QUOTE] It's not "because you think people might discriminate against you" — it's [B]because they actually do[/B].
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;40456341]Geez. As long as people can tell your gender, there's [I]always[/I] gonna be people who think that just making the fact that you're a woman is attention-whoring :/ [/QUOTE] Most men don't go into game servers and state that they are a guy unless if they were asked, though.
[QUOTE=Aphtonites;40456414]Most men don't go into game servers and state that they are a guy unless if they were asked, though.[/QUOTE] That might be because on the Internet, the default gender is male...? [editline]28th April 2013[/editline] There's a lot more women around you on the Internet than you think, but because 1) we assume everyone is male unless proven otherwise and 2) if proven otherwise, you're met with dozens of "attention whore" "bitch" etc. and the stupid "gurl gamer don't hit on me you silly boys" stereotype just for asserting your gender, well, you see where that leads us.
[QUOTE=Aphtonites;40456414]Most men don't go into game servers and state that they are a guy unless if they were asked, though.[/QUOTE] Neither do most women? EDIT: (I mean state that they're women when they join a game.)
[QUOTE=Riutet;40456211] through this method it does not excuse the existence of discrimination in the non-independent sector of the industry.[/QUOTE] What discrimination? Women do not get denied developer positions because of their gender, there's just very little women applying.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;40456533]What discrimination? Women do not get denied developer positions because of their gender, there's just very little women applying.[/QUOTE] "Once heard an Art manager say 'We don't need any more women, they're more trouble than they're worth' as he viewed applications" [url]http://kotaku.com/5963528/heres-a-devastating-account-of-the-crap-women-in-the-games-business-have-to-deal-with-in-2012[/url] "Looking at average total compensation earned, we can see a $9,000 gap between male and female workers. ...the average male worker has not been in the industry much longer than his female counterparts." [url]http://www.igda.org/sites/default/files/IGDA_DeveloperDemographics_Oct05.pdf[/url] (page 13)
[QUOTE=nikomo;40455514]There's always going to be a few weirdos, but if you're talking about the "NOBODY GIVES A FUCK THAT YOU'RE A WOMAN PLAYING VIDEO GAMES" reaction, it's because the woman in that situation is usually being a massive fucking attention-whore, trying to make a quick buck through donations and advertisements.[/QUOTE] uh no that "gamer gurl" shit is a blatant stereotype. like if i ask you what your gender is on the internet (where everyone is male unless proven otherwise) and you say that you're female, the standard response to that completely neutral answer is to freak the fuck out, proclaim you to be an attention whore for playing my manly video games for men only, then get in a tantrum until you leave. if a girl's playing video games and just happens to suck at them or whatever the fuck qualifies a gamer gurl, the correct answer is not to say "GOD STOP PLAYING NOBODY GIVES A FUCK THAT YOU'RE A WOMAN YOU KNOW," it's to remain quiet or try and help them like you would with anyone else. i don't like it when someone clearly has no idea what they're doing in a game, but this need not be a gender-related issue.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;40456341]The overwhelming amount of stories isn't enough? Really?[/quote] Anecdotal evidence, an overwhelming amount of anecdotal evidence. If you can prove it through rigorous scientific study with proper methodology, I will believe it. You have to understand too, that just because you don't see sexism does not necessarily mean it isn't there, but at the same just because you do, does not mean it IS there. Just as it is believed that men cannot know how women are discriminated against unless they are told by women, because they are men and are not subject to the discrimination that is squared at women. So to are women not men, and therefore cannot know how men are treated unless they are told by men, because they are women. To understand what is targeted discrimination and therefore sexism, and what is criticism not exclusive to gender, you must have both a male and female perspective, you must know what is received by everyone to understand what is received by you exclusively. If this is true then for a woman to say that they are discriminated against is comparable to a man saying that women are not discriminated against, you need an impartial observer to verify whether this is the case, hence why I suggest a scientific study. I will give you some examples: [quote]alienpigpen @alienpigpen @b_1st #1reasonwhy because female devs' input get repeatedly dismissed in a studio making games "for women" (how about that one).[/quote] Is it that her idea is being dismissed because she is a woman, or is it because her idea sucks? Has she gotten clarification? How can she know whether this is sexism, or her own incompetence? What if it's the dunning-kruger effect? [quote]leighalexander @leighalexander #1reasonwhy because my male colleagues are allowed to occasionally be obnoxious, silly, immature, annoying, drunk. i'm not.[/quote] From her perspective it does seem like sexism. "These people are speaking ill of me, this must be discrimination, my male colleagues have it so easy." Leigh Alexander as far as I can tell is a videogame industry journalist and also does articles for Kotaku. There are plenty of other male journalists who work for Kotaku and they get ripped to fucking pieces all the time, it isn't just exclusive to Kotaku either, if you are a videogame journalist you get criticised to hell and back, negative and positive criticism all the same. So from her limited perspective, her being a woman and not being a man it does indeed seem like discrimination, especially when the language used is the vernacular of sexism, but is it sexism or is it just what everyone else experiences, but you perceive it to be discrimination because you belong to a group who has been discriminated against heavily in the past and to a certain extent also in the present. I will not argue that some of the attacks are not motivated by discrimination, but to what extent? Until that is answered I cannot take something like the #1reasonwhy as evidence of mass sexism, merely of harassment that seems sexist. [quote]It's not "because you think people might discriminate against you" — it's [B]because they actually do[/B].[/QUOTE] I should have phrased it better, I mean that not even the real or imagined threat of discrimination would stop me, the only thing that would stop me is if I did not possess equality of opportunity, and even then I'd give it a good go.
[QUOTE=nikomo;40455514]There's always going to be a few weirdos, but if you're talking about the "NOBODY GIVES A FUCK THAT YOU'RE A WOMAN PLAYING VIDEO GAMES" reaction, it's because the woman in that situation is usually being a massive fucking attention-whore, trying to make a quick buck through donations and advertisements.[/QUOTE] To be fair, the guys who obsess over her are just as much at fault
[QUOTE=Cone;40454639]or just look at the usual reaction to a girl playing online games[/QUOTE] [I]omg fucking attention whore fuck you slut whore FUCK OFF can we fuck cunt go play with dolls get back in the kitchen bitch omg are you really a girl trannie cunt ljgbkhjkl;nfjklhfgsjklbcvsjhl;bcdvsjl;c[/I] and the rest you get the point etcetc
[QUOTE=J!NX;40456826][I]omg fucking attention whore fuck you slut whore FUCK OFF can we fuck cunt go play with dolls get back in the kitchen bitch omg are you really a girl trannie cunt ljgbkhjkl;nfjklhfgsjklbcvsjhl;bcdvsjl;c[/I] and the rest you get the point etcetc[/QUOTE] I count myself fortunate that I've never seen this in person.
[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;40456925]I count myself fortunate that I've never seen this in person.[/QUOTE] neither have I but its 100% real people actaully are fucking like this
[QUOTE=Uberslug;40456622]"Looking at average total compensation earned, we can see a $9,000 gap between male and female workers. ...the average male worker has not been in the industry much longer than his female counterparts." [url]http://www.igda.org/sites/default/files/IGDA_DeveloperDemographics_Oct05.pdf[/url] (page 13)[/QUOTE] [img]http://i.imgur.com/byBKDSN.jpg[/img] True enough if you only compare the roles that have similar compensation and the numbers come out different then it does look like discrimination, but they expect you to take on their word that the unmentioned male dominated roles have similar levels of compensation as the other unmentioned female dominated roles without actually giving you the hard figures. How about only comparing people in the same role who have similar circumstances in the same workplace rather than looking at averages over the spectrum?
[QUOTE=J!NX;40456947]neither have I but its 100% real people actaully are fucking like this[/QUOTE] It sounds like half of the people who act like this would be part of the call of duty community, though :v:
[QUOTE=J!NX;40456947]neither have I but its 100% real people actaully are fucking like this[/QUOTE] And that's pretty much the textbook example as to why women are often steered away from gaming. Hell, even as a male the rampant immaturity I find in many multiplayer games is flat-out reprehensible.
[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;40457032]And that's pretty much the textbook example as to why women are often steered away from gaming. Hell, even as a male the rampant immaturity I find in many multiplayer games is flat-out reprehensible.[/QUOTE] and this is why my display name is always "TheMostGenericName" and I shut up and play.
Here are some good articles to read: [url]http://www.netmagazine.com/features/primer-sexism-tech-industry[/url] [url]http://smarterware.org/7550/designers-women-and-hostility-in-open-source[/url] [url]http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=10567[/url] [editline]28th April 2013[/editline] the last one especially, for salary figures
[QUOTE=Riutet;40456695]From her perspective it does seem like sexism.[/QUOTE] If I'm reading your post right, you're basically saying that they could have misinterpreted what happened as discrimination. That makes sense, but you have to consider that anecdotal evidence (regarding social phenomena) [I]is[/I] legitimate when it is taken in such vast quantities. There are people in this thread like JeanLuc761 who recognize that it would be unpleasant to be a woman in this hobby based on their own experiences. That's all it takes, see? That's [I]why[/I] there aren't more women in the industry. It's because of anecdotal experiences whether they're verifiably sexist or not. Edit: plus, Max just posted legit statistics.
[QUOTE=Uberslug;40457100]If I'm reading your post right, you're basically saying that they could have misinterpreted what happened as discrimination. That makes sense, but you have to consider that anecdotal evidence (regarding social phenomena) [I]is[/I] legitimate when it is taken in such vast quantities. There are people in this thread like JeanLuc761 who recognize that it would be unpleasant to be a woman in this hobby based on their own experiences. That's all it takes, see? That's [I]why[/I] there aren't more women in the industry. It's because of anecdotal experiences whether they're verifiably sexist or not.[/QUOTE] I am not denying that there is sexism in the videogame industry, I am just saying that anecdotal evidence has a cognitive bias, that to take it as evidence of sexism is premature, that you should take it as evidence that there needs to be study to understand the reality of the situation.
All well and good complaining about it but is she actually going to DO anything about it.
[QUOTE=Riutet;40457146]I am not denying that there is sexism in the videogame industry, I am just saying that anecdotal evidence has a cognitive bias, that to take it as evidence of sexism is premature, that you should take it as evidence that there needs to be study to understand the reality of the situation.[/QUOTE] I get that, but I'm saying that even considering the cognitive bias, the fact that [I]perceived[/I] sexism is commonplace is a reason for there to be fewer women in the industry. Though, personally, I think that most of the tweets are probably on-point because the people making them are immersed in the social context of the anecdotes and people are pretty good at interpreting the motivations of other people in cases like this.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;40457060][url]http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=10567[/url] [editline]28th April 2013[/editline] the last one especially, for salary figures[/QUOTE] I read that, and the numbers do indicate there is a gap. However the reason why there is a gap seems to be up for speculation and in need of further context and study, not necessarily sexism. At the end of the article the guy himself says: [quote]Finally, in business and legal we see that men make 31% more than women. This is a broad field that includes Community Management, CEOs, HR, IT, and admin. I suspect part of this discrepancy in wage is that HR, admin, and community management have a lot of female representation anecdotally while upper management is dominated by men at most game companies. I’m sure there are more details that might make these numbers less damning. For example, we all know that games have been long dominated by men and the industry is taking small steps to change that. As a result, many of the women who answered the survey might be new to the game industry, might not be in as senior of roles as the men who responded.[/quote] Which is true, we are missing context and to attribute it to sexism is premature. He then goes on to say: [quote]However, I don’t think this changes the fact that we need to recruit and encourage more women at all levels of every organization — and we’re failing to do so.[/quote] I only agree with ensuring equality of opportunity, ensuring that those who want to reach a certain station and take the necessary steps, get there, not enforcing equality of outcome. If there is indeed a discrepancy caused by sexism that is hindering equality of opportunity, then I would agree that something needs to be done. [editline]28th April 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Uberslug;40457190]I get that, but I'm saying that even considering the cognitive bias, the fact that [I]perceived[/I] sexism is commonplace is a reason for there to be fewer women in the industry.[/QUOTE] If the problem is perceived sexism and not as much as is thought actual sexism, then the problem is not so much of sexism itself but of perception, and as such the solution is not just to try and stamp out sexism, but to help people understand what happens exclusively to one group and what happens to everyone. Unless I am reading your post wrong?
[QUOTE=Riutet;40457320]If the problem is perceived sexism and not as much as is thought actual sexism, then the problem is not so much of sexism itself but of perception, and as such the solution is not just to try and stamp out sexism, but to help people understand what happens exclusively to one group and what happens to everyone. Unless I am reading your post wrong?[/QUOTE] It's not [I]the[/I] problem, but it is part of it. Like I said before, this is basically a feedback loop. Fewer women in the industry means that women become rare and "otherized" which can create sexism and discrimination. I'm guessing that, if female representation in the gaming world was closer to 50/50, cases of real sexism and merely perceived sexism would both go down. The gender gap is not biologically based, it's a result of our societal constructs, which means that we can fix it, and [I]should[/I] fix it because it's not right for about half of the population to have a harder time getting into a particular field of work. Also, I'm not calling you out or anything, but this is an example of the default male gender thing other people have talked about. [QUOTE=Riutet;40457320]At the end of the article the guy himself says[/QUOTE] (The author of the article identifies as female) edit: anyway it seems like we're pretty much on the same page with this, just that you have some doubts about the cause and scale of the problem?
[QUOTE=J!NX;40456826][I]omg fucking attention whore fuck you slut whore FUCK OFF can we fuck cunt go play with dolls get back in the kitchen bitch omg are you really a girl trannie cunt ljgbkhjkl;nfjklhfgsjklbcvsjhl;bcdvsjl;c[/I] and the rest you get the point etcetc[/QUOTE] You forgot my response: HEY 12 YEAR OLD THIS GAME IS RATED M GO PLAY YUGIOH MOTHERFUCKER "but I'm a GIRL" oh ah um uh hmm
[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;40457561]You forgot my response: HEY 12 YEAR OLD THIS GAME IS RATED M GO PLAY YUGIOH MOTHERFUCKER "but I'm a GIRL" oh ah um uh hmm[/QUOTE] "Skank"
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.